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Old September 2, 2009, 08:43 AM   #1
twhidd
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ATF knocked on my door last night!

I'm as serious as a heart attack. An ATF agent came to visit me last night to ask me about a handgun I sold to an individual on another forum. He began by saying that he was not investigating me, but rather the person that I sold the gun to. I followed everything that was required in my state by verifying that he was legal to own. And he was, because he showed me his carry license. He is investigating this person because this guy is buying and selling guns on these forums like crazy, and he has no federal firearms license. The guy took the gun he got from me and posted it on another forum the very next day for almost twice the price that he paid me (which kinda ****** me off. But hey, you live and learn. The gun wasn't really worth what he was asking for it, but I digress). He showed me a list of AR's, AK's and handguns that this guy has been selling for several months. The phrase "arms dealer" was used.

You could imagine that I was somewhat concerned to have a federal agent at my door. I wanted to know how he came to find me. My state doesn't require firearms registration. Well apparently the picture he posted of my gun on the forum was a clear enough photo that he was able to trace the serial number back to the dealer that I bought the gun from. And I guess he got them to pull the paper work of the transaction from where I bought it.

I must say that all-in-all the agent was very friendly. As we spoke I came to understand what he was trying to accomplish by this investigation. If this guy wants to be a "gun dealer" then he needs to get an FFL. In our conversation he seemed to come across as pro 2nd Ammendment. He said specifically that "we don't need more gun laws, we need to enforce the laws we have". which is what he is seems to be doing. It did make for an interesting half hour.

I'm interested in to see what comments come from this.
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Old September 2, 2009, 08:58 AM   #2
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a good investigation.

AFS
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Old September 2, 2009, 09:05 AM   #3
Maromero
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Don't you think that, in light that there is an ongoing investigation regarding this matter you should delete your thread and keep silent?
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Old September 2, 2009, 09:17 AM   #4
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I don't. Silence is what has brought us to the brink of arms confiscation today. I appreciate your post.

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Old September 2, 2009, 09:20 AM   #5
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It doesn't sound like the OP is under investigation at all, and has broken zero laws. The only thing the ATF is investigating is whether the other person is engaging in the business of selling firearms without a license- unfortunately they view it as a higher crime than it tends to be (unless he's deliberately selling these guns to people unable to legally own a firearm, it's just a tax issue).

I'm glad the agent was professional, folks tend to talk a lot of trash about the agents, but I must admit I don't see all that many negative stories about interactions with them. I still wouldn't mind seeing the ATF as an agency taken down a stitch, but it makes me think that all hope may well not be lost.
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Old September 2, 2009, 09:21 AM   #6
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Is it against the law?

Is it against the law to buy guns online at a low price and then re-sell them for a profit?

If this guy hasn't bought or sold guns outside of the State, then does the ATF have any jurisdiction?

I don't know. Without all the details, I'd really like to reserve my opinion. I just want to say, I have reservations.
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Old September 2, 2009, 09:22 AM   #7
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I agree that this is an interesting scenario and I appreciate the post.
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Old September 2, 2009, 09:28 AM   #8
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The agent can TELL you that he's investigating someone else, while he's investigating you.

This happened to a gentleman on this forum from Texas about a month or two ago.

Since the agent confessed that he's trying to trip up someone for selling firearms without a license (but don't worry, buddy, I'm trying to get this guy over here... not you), it seems like there's potential danger to yourself if you cooperate with them without first spending $100 on some cheap legal advice.

Remember.... to most law enforcement (especially Feds), it is the gun that is the object of criminality. Anyone who owned or held it is subject to its taint of wickedness. If this guy under investigation sold "an illegal gun," then you also participated in selling an "illegal gun."

I would suggest no more dialogue with the ATF agent unless you have a lawyer present. Maybe it was just nothing, but it can change focus quickly based on the whim of that agent.
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Old September 2, 2009, 09:57 AM   #9
twhidd
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The only thing the ATF is investigating is whether the other person is engaging in the business of selling firearms without a license- unfortunately they view it as a higher crime than it tends to be (unless he's deliberately selling these guns to people unable to legally own a firearm, it's just a tax issue).
I believe that was exactly the agents intent. He stated that only he and one other agent in this region investigate such transactions (I guess meaning internet transactions). As minor as it may be, I understand why he was doing so.

And "no" it is not illegal to buy and sell firearms over the internet. And it is also not illegal to sell one for a profit. The agent made that very clear, as I already knew this to be the case. But if you intend to do this as a so-called business, then you need to follow the rules of the road so-to-speak and get an FFL. Also make certain that the people that you are selling to are legally able to own said firearm. Too many guns end up in the hands of the wrong people if the rules aren't followed.
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Old September 2, 2009, 10:01 AM   #10
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rjrivero

ATF is the arm of our government that regulates the BUSINESS of firearms sales. If you are buying and selling firearms as a business then you must be licensed and follow all ATF regulations.

ATF has guidelines that establish if you are "doing business" or "recreation", they are available on-line. It is a gray area, and involves a determination of % income derived from firearms sales plus some other factors.

Hope that helps.

Good Luck & Be Safe
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Old September 2, 2009, 10:07 AM   #11
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I've got guys I've banned from the shop and blocked from auction bidding because they do just that...buy guns from gunshops and pawnshops then sell then to all comers at gun shows.

I would and have happily cooperate(d) with any investigation like the one referred to here

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Old September 2, 2009, 10:16 AM   #12
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"Remember.... to most law enforcement (especially Feds), it is the gun that is the object of criminality."

Proof please. And I don't mean some anecdotal stories your heard somewhere. You said "most law enforcement" and you need to back it up or retract it as nothing but your prejudiced opinion.

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Old September 2, 2009, 10:34 AM   #13
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I'm interested in to see what comments come from this.
My comment would be "no comment". All I'd have told the ATF agent is, "I respectfully decline to answer any questions until I have been read my rights and have spoken with my lawyer, and my statements are being transcribed or recorded."

Any time any LEO starts asking questions like that "in the course of an investigation" - even if the person himself isn't being investigated - it's time to talk to lawyers.
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Old September 2, 2009, 10:41 AM   #14
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I respectfully decline to answer any questions until I have been read my rights
Speak to an attorney maybe but, and I may be wrong, I don't think they're going to read you your rights unless you're under arrest.
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Old September 2, 2009, 10:54 AM   #15
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twhidd:

CWPinSC is correct. You have rights. They are there for a reason and purpose. Do not take them for granted. It may appear that you are not the focus of the investigation but you are in the invstigation. Otherwise, no agent at your door. This is not meant to scare you. Lawyer up before answering future questions and obey your lawyer's instructions. One slip, one misunderstanding from that agent regarding any of your statements and you are in deep. The agent does not has to read you your rights until you become the focus of the investigation. You probably won't hear from this agent again but be safe and request legal advice.

[QUOTE]I've got guys I've banned from the shop and blocked from auction bidding because they do just that...buy guns from gunshops and pawnshops then sell then to all comers at gun shows.

I would and have happily cooperate(d) with any investigation like the one referred to here/QUOTE]

It apears you have a little more knowledge and expirience regarding this matter. I don't mean not to cooperate. Cooperate in all you can but in an intelligent and diligent manner. If he doesn't have the expirience and know how, get it before doing something irresponsible like answering questions to a fed agent in a criminal investigation.

Last edited by Maromero; September 2, 2009 at 11:00 AM.
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Old September 2, 2009, 11:48 AM   #16
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I held an FFL for many years and I can tell you don't believe everything a LEO or agent tells you as fact. Period. Don't talk unless you have an attorney present, and you can tactfully handle that by telling the agent that you will be happy to answer any of his questions in your attorney's office where you will record the entire conversation just to protect your rights.

Should this turn out to be something other than was presented to you, it will be your word, an individual who sold a firearm to a (possibly) person who was prohibited from owning that firearm, against the word of an experienced, highly trained, professional federal agent who, after all, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is just trying to protect the nation from potential domestic terroristic activities. You don't want to ever find yourself in that kind of situation. And don't think it can't ever happen to you.

Just a word of caution for the future.
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Old September 2, 2009, 12:41 PM   #17
Rich Miranda
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Given the possibly scary-as-hell consequences of innocently (and legally) selling a gun, wouldn't it be cool if a local gun shop would conduct the transaction for you, for, say $10?
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Old September 2, 2009, 12:45 PM   #18
Wildalaska
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Let me note:

1. Feds are waaay to busy to manufacture cases against Joe Schmoo, they want big profile dudes..
2. There are always exceptions to that rule
3. They usually get caught and get a reaming when they do.

Based on the facts recited by the OP, he is not a target and wouldnt be a target and in point of fact, he is a good guy potential witness, which is the best witness to have. I have been there, ie a witness in a federal gun case. They treat ya real nice because there is very little the defense can do to ya in terms of impeachment.

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Old September 2, 2009, 12:54 PM   #19
Maromero
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I have been there, ie a witness in a federal gun case. They treat ya real nice because there is very little the defense can do to ya in terms of impeachment.
Wildalaska. Like I said. That's your business, been there, done that, ext. I agree with you but the guy should at least know where he stands in order to answer questions to a fed agent in an ongoing investigation.
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Old September 2, 2009, 12:56 PM   #20
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I held an FFL for many years and I can tell you don't believe everything a LEO or agent tells you as fact. Period. Don't talk unless you have an attorney present, and you can tactfully handle that by telling the agent that you will be happy to answer any of his questions in your attorney's office where you will record the entire conversation just to protect your rights.

Should this turn out to be something other than was presented to you, it will be your word, an individual who sold a firearm to a (possibly) person who was prohibited from owning that firearm, against the word of an experienced, highly trained, professional federal agent who, after all, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is just trying to protect the nation from potential domestic terroristic activities. You don't want to ever find yourself in that kind of situation. And don't think it can't ever happen to you.

Just a word of caution for the future.
Generally speaking, this is good advice. But, if you are like me and sell a gun maybe 3 times in 10 years, and you have no reason to be concerned about the sale, then you just have to use your best judgment and determine whether open and honest dialogue is called for, or if you need to lawyer up. I'd err on the side of lawyering up, though if you have any doubts.
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Old September 2, 2009, 01:12 PM   #21
twhidd
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I didn't feel as if I had any reason to be uncooperative with the guy. I sold a firearm to an individual who showed me his state firearms license. In my state that is all that is required for a face-to-face sale. That seemed reasonable enough to me.
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Old September 2, 2009, 01:18 PM   #22
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Any time any LEO starts asking questions like that "in the course of an investigation" - even if the person himself isn't being investigated - it's time to talk to lawyers.
As a retired police officer I was just thinking of the robberies, assaults, and missing children incidents I and officers around me were able to resolve because people not involved in the crime spoke freely with me. A person is not read their rights unless they are a suspect... then call your lawyer.

I can see the scenario in my mind. “Excuse me sir, I’m looking for an 80 year old Alzheimer’s patient. Have you seen someone fitting such and such description? “Officer, I ain’t talking to you without my lawyer present”. We later find the patient dead of exposure in a nearby wooded area. Worse yet, if we’re looking for someone who just molested a 6 year old and you make a statement like that.

Yes there are corrupt cops. They are usually found out, arrested, shunned by other, honest cops (the majority).
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Old September 2, 2009, 01:20 PM   #23
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Face-toface, I sell only to folks I know well enough to loan a gun, for deer season.

Everything else goes through a FFL.

BTW, I've been LE close to 30 years and no, I don't see firearms in the hands of citizens as an 'object of criminality'.

Sheeesh.
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Old September 2, 2009, 01:30 PM   #24
Wildalaska
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I can see the scenario in my mind. “Excuse me sir, I’m looking for an 80 year old Alzheimer’s patient. Have you seen someone fitting such and such description? “Officer, I ain’t talking to you without my lawyer present”. We later find the patient dead of exposure in a nearby wooded area. Worse yet, if we’re looking for someone who just molested a 6 year old and you make a statement like that.
Bingo...hinkymeter goes to the red! and quivers there

Heres another rule: Lawyering up can be as bad as talking.

Now y'all figure out all the competing rules, but let me give ya a hint...if you havent done anything wrong, your chance of getting in trouble for merely talking to the Po Po is the same as facing multiple assailants......

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Old September 2, 2009, 01:33 PM   #25
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Face to face...

... I've only ever sold to personal friends of long-standing, or people who were serving in military units with me, that I knew held Secret or higher clearances (those background checks are significantly more thorough than the ones for a firearms permit).

Otherwise, I've used FFL's.
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