Sunday Long Range Shooting, Questions

[DBAR]

I've always been an AR15 fan, and I've competed in some 3 gun matches. Lately I just don't have the money or time to compete anymore, so Sunday I got together with some friends for some long range shooting. Both of my friends had their bolt action .308's with 24" barrels and hand loads. I felt a little intemidated with my AR15 with a 16" SS match quality barrel. I switched scopes (burris quick release rings) from a Leupold 1-4 (great for 3 gun) to my Nikon Monarch 4-12 w/BDC reticle. All shots where taken from the proned position using a Harris BiPod. Targets where at 600 yds, and my ammo was Lake City M855 and Radway 62gn Nato stuff. The groups for me where 6" to 8", and the best 3 out of 5 where 3.5". It was my first time shooting at that range, and I realized that it doesn't take much to change your groups. I'm waiting for some pictures from one of the guys, and I'll post them when I get them.

I've never shot that far before, and I was wondering if those groups are considered the norm for an AR15. How much tighter do you guys think I'd be able to get if I got the "Rock Chucker" out and did up some 69gn Siera HPBT loads. I was loading, but I kept getting bullets pushing back into the case. I tried every thing, but I never could get them to stay seated. If you have some advice about hand loading, bullets, crimping, and anything else it would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
DBAR

I think I'm hooked on the long range stuff now. I'm already thinking about saving for a good bolt gun.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Well, I can tell you that 8 inch groups at 600 yards is 1.28MOA..... which is basically phenomenal. Especially for a first time long distance shooter with factory ammo using a gun that's not particularly designed for the task.

I know guys who can't shoot 8 inch groups at 200 yards with any consistency.

I was loading, but I kept getting bullets pushing back into the case. I tried every thing, but I never could get them to stay seated.

By this do you mean that the bullets were getting pushed into the case when the gun chambered them? If so, you need a stronger crimp. My humble and completely inexperienced advise would be a factory crimp die... but I'm not sure if I know what I'm talking about or not, so....

[DBAR]

Well, I can tell you that 8 inch groups at 600 yards is 1.28MOA..... which is basically phenomenal. Especially for a first time long distance shooter with factory ammo using a gun that's not particularly designed for the task.

I put a lot of time and money into this AR. I used a SS match grade barrel from Denny’s Guns, which was made by White Oak Armament. 1/7 twist, wlyde chamber, and mid length gas system. The barrel came with a matching bolt supposedly fitted for the barrel. I use a VLTOR Billet upper receiver to increase stiffness (suppose to help with accuracy). I use a Jard 3 lb trigger, and put a good muzzle break on it. So it was put together with accuracy in mind. The guys where surprised that I was doing that well with a 16" barrel, with military ammo.

So those groups are considered really good for an AR? I hope to do better my next outing, but that may be a while. Deer season is coming up, and I don't think my friend wants to shoot on the farm anymore. By the way, I've always shot less than an inch with it at 100 meters off the bench, and 1" to 1.5" proned off the bipod.

By this do you mean that the bullets were getting pushed into the case when the gun chambered them? If so, you need a stronger crimp. My humble and completely inexperienced advice would be a factory crimp die... but I'm not sure if I know what I'm talking about or not, so....

Yep, that's what was happening. I put as much crimp as I could, but there is no canalure (spelling?) around the Sierra HPBT match bullets. I couldn't find any quality match bullets with a canalure. I think all the match bullets are designed with bolt guns in mind. I use Hornady dies, could that be the problem. I always thought they where suppose to be on of the best.

Thanks for the reply. I had no idea where I stood in the long range department. My friends where getting 3" to 4" groups, but their rifles are custom builds that they paid a lot of money for. One is a Winchester, and the other was a Savage with the Stock replaced, and some action work done to it?

DBAR

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by DBAR

I put a lot of time and money into this AR. I used a SS match grade barrel from Denny’s Guns, which was made by White Oak Armament. 1/7 twist, wlyde chamber, and mid length gas system. The barrel came with a matching bolt supposedly fitted for the barrel. I use a VLTOR Billet upper receiver to increase stiffness (suppose to help with accuracy). I use a Jard 3 lb trigger, and put a good muzzle break on it. So it was put together with accuracy in mind. The guys where surprised that I was doing that well with a 16" barrel, with military ammo.

So those groups are considered really good for an AR? I hope to do better my next outing, but that may be a while. Deer season is coming up, and I don't think my friend wants to shoot on the farm anymore.

Ah! So the gun is sort of made for it. Still, that's damn fine shooting. The shooter matters more than the gun. Most people have no idea how hard it is to hit something at 600 yards. 8 inch groups at that range are very, very good. Certainly there are guns and people who could shoot sub 1 inch groups at that range but those people have put 10s of thousands of rounds down range and have guns that are thousands of dollars. "Regular" people have trouble at 150 yards many times. I know a lot of people who can't reliably hit a woodchuck at 250 yards, regardless of the capability of the gun.


So far as the set-back issue. You know as much about it as I do.... The FCD suggestion was the entire extent of my knowledge.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I'd be really happy with those groups. For comparison, with a stock trigger, stock 16" Bushmaster HBAR, 3.5x ACOG and 55gr FMJ blasting ammo (forgot brand), I did about 36" at 600yds (overall - once I got the wind calls down, it was more like 18")

[longranger]

I use a 5 round mag at the range for long range shooting with my AR, loaded rounds don't take the recoil as long as the bigger mags, no set back issues.I do not crimp my LR target loads. With 1:7 ROT heavier bullets will improve LR groups.

[DBAR]

I use a 5 round mag at the range for long range shooting with my AR, loaded rounds don't take the recoil as long as the bigger mags, no set back issues.I do not crimp my LR target loads. With 1:7 ROT heavier bullets will improve LR groups.

I'm getting the bullet set back when the round travels from the magazine to the chamber. I've measured everything in my AR with a micrometer, distance of travel between the magazine to the chamber, up and down, and foward and back. The problem is with my hand loads, so I'm just going to have to have one of my friends that has more expereince than I do, come over and help me adjust my dies. I've hand loaded .45 acp rounds for years, but rifle rounds are new to me.

DBAR

[Jim Watson]

That is fabulous shooting with ball ammo, business should pick right up with a match bullet. With a 7 twist I would use the 77 grain which is the heaviest made for magazine length seating.

I don't know about your setback woes. Mike the expander ball in your sizing die. If it is not substantially smaller than caliber, that might be the problem. Or the sizing die might not be bringing the neck down small enough to start with. See if your bud will size some for you in a different die.

[DBAR]

Thanks Jim, I'll ck those things out. I've got to have something a stray in there somewhere. I'm also going to pick up some 77gn stuff tomorrow, if the local shop has them and they usually do. I just had some good luck with the .69 gn stuff in the begining. I think I'll give the 77gn stuff a try.

DBAR