Clinton candidly admits spiritual struggles

KaMaKaZe · August 11, 2000, 07:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Clinton candidly admits spiritual struggles
Sonya Ross - Associated Press
Friday, August 11, 2000

South Barrington, Ill. --- Baring his soul before thousands of evangelical ministers, President Clinton said Thursday he feels "this overwhelming sense of gratitude" to have gained a measure of forgiveness from Americans for his affair with Monica Lewinsky.

Clinton sat before an audience of about 4,500 with the Rev. Bill Hybels, senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church and a Clinton adviser since 1992, for his most revealing discussion ever about his spiritual struggles since his affair with Lewinsky, a former White House intern, nearly brought down his presidency.

Turning a conference of evangelicals into a public confessional, he called the affair "a terrible mistake."

His utterances could have a political impact: Vice President Al Gore, a week away from nomination as the Democratic standard-bearer to succeed Clinton, has suffered in the polls from being tied to a president whose job approval is high but whose ethics have drawn widespread scorn.

"It may be that if I didn't get knocked down . . . I might not have had to really deal with it 100 percent," Clinton said, in apparent reference to his impeachment by the House of Representatives.

"In a funny way, when you feel there is nothing left to hide, it sort of frees you up to do what you ought to be doing anyway. I feel this overwhelming sense of gratitude. I also learned a lot about forgiveness."

He said more than 60 percent of Americans have "stuck with me."

As for people who say he never really apologized for what he did, Clinton said those who saw his nationally televised confession --- and watched him cope with the impeachment crisis --- could not possibly doubt his sincerity.

"There was a time when I was upset about it. But then I realized that was another form of defensiveness," Clinton said. ". . . It's just a crutch for not dealing with what you're supposed to be dealing with. So I just let it go. I hope people can see it's different."

Shortly after admitting to the affair with Lewinsky in August 1998, Clinton received counseling from a trio of ministers, who agreed not to reveal what they discussed with him. Clinton himself has said little about it as he has sought to repair his marriage with Hillary Rodham Clinton and his relationship with his daughter, Chelsea. He said his relations with his family remain an ongoing struggle. He declined to go into more detail.

Clinton said the Lewinsky episode was a low moment of his presidency, along with the deaths of American troops in Somalia, the Oklahoma City bombing, and the 1994 backlash against Democrats who supported him in Congress.

For those who call his family's church attendance an act intended for public consumption, Clinton said, "I think I have given evidence that I need to be in church. I don't do it for anybody else; I do it for me."

Clinton was warmly received, getting a standing ovation from the ministers.

Clinton was in South Barrington after a stop in Chicago, where he announced a plan to give lower interest rates to college students who make their first 12 student loan payments promptly, a move that would save them and their parents roughly $600 million over the next five years.

Today, Clinton sets off on a fund-raising swing in California.

> ON THE WEB: A clergyman's response to Clinton's actions: carpentershomechurch.net/Archive/clinton_whitehouse.htm
[/quote]

"to have gained a measure of forgiveness from Americans for his affair with Monica Lewinsky."
--Not from this American!

------------------
God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

Keiller TN · August 11, 2000, 11:15 AM

I saw some of this, but I have a hard time listening to him. Why should we believe him? Let him bring forth fruit in accordance with repentance.

------------------
"Unless the Lord builds the house, they labour in vain that build it:
except the Lord guards the city, the watchman stays awake in vain." (Psalm 127:1)

"Freedom is given to the human conditionally, in the assumption of his constant religious responsibility."
(Alexander Solzhenitzyn)

bruels · August 11, 2000, 11:34 AM

He needs to study Jimmy Swaggart. Jimmy can do it with tears.

Munro Williams · August 11, 2000, 12:51 PM

Compared to Clinton, poor old Jimmy Swaggart's a piker.

RH · August 11, 2000, 01:24 PM

Notice he didn't mention lying under oath or contempt of a federal court as offenses he needs to repent of.

He can say this with his hoarse crackly voice, bite his lip, mist up his eyes, and get a standing O every time. pathetic

Satanta · August 11, 2000, 04:46 PM

The bible probly burns his hands...

------------------
Satanta, the Whitebear
Sat's Realm: http://SatantasRealm.tripod.com/Entr...entrypage.html

My Disability petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/DisbHelp/petition.html

Dangus · August 11, 2000, 11:16 PM

You guys, this performance he did on that show was absolutely genious. He mentioned Gore, Hillary, Monica, etc all in one speech, tried to make himself look like the good guy, but also tried to make the others look like they weren't part of it, and he even mentioned that 65% of the population still supported him and he was greatful for that*roflmao*.

He really is called "Slick" Willy for a reason, this guy is a Jedi master of manipulation and lies. He could have been a good mob boss, only he probably feels more mafia being where he is right now with the ATF acting as his hitmen.

------------------
I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me

MP Freeman · August 11, 2000, 11:25 PM

..."I also learned alot about forgiveness."

Exactly what have you learned Billy? Has your spiritual struggle lead you to contrition?

alan · August 12, 2000, 01:34 AM

During this "candid admission" did he bite his lip, that seems part and parcel of his routine. Clinton and "candid", talk of the proverbial oxymoron.

dinosaur · August 12, 2000, 05:51 AM

I`m confused. Don`t you have to have a conscience to regret something?

Herodotus · August 12, 2000, 09:42 AM

Sincere: I doubt it. Everything is padded to his advantage. If he was sincere, he could have resigned and let Gore be President.
Is he a loose cannon, rolling around on the ship of state, embarassing all, his own party included? I don't know. All I know is that you never know what is truly going on in this man's head or what he will do tomorrow.
Some are saying that this relieves him of any necessity of adressing this issue at his speach at the Democratic National Convention. They say this he has now "brought everything out on the table" on this issue (again) and can now just leave it to largely sympathetic talking heads to comment on it. In this senario, his performance is co-ordinated with the Gore/Lieberman people for political effect.
I don't know. It could be a combination of all of the above. The man is complex in a dark way.

JerryM · August 12, 2000, 10:04 AM

Repentance includes both sorrow and change. Luke 18:13, Matt. 3:8. It requires confession to God. Confession means to say what God says about the sin. Repentance also includes trying to make right the wrong. There has been no sign of true Biblical repentance from Bill Clinton. He is being counseled by a bunch of liberal ministers who don't practice what the Bible says. Bill Clinton's actions speak for him. 1 John 2:3 *"¶And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 *He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." Any doubts? Jerry

------------------
Ecclesiastes 12:13 *¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 *For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Karanas · August 12, 2000, 11:12 AM

Like the little boy who cried wolf, bubba has lied too often for me to ever believe anything that comes out of his mouth.
The fact that his admission of this spiritual struggle happens to make the news while his partner in crime tries to distance himself from this ethical and moral pygmy sure is an amazing coincidence.

G50AE · August 12, 2000, 03:42 PM

This is typical Christian BS, avoid personal resposability because Jesus will forgive you.

Since Klinton is a Kristian, we knew this was coming.

Tecolote · August 12, 2000, 04:11 PM

G50AE,

I doubt you understand Christianity, because if you did you wouldn't have made the statement above.

If you're intersted perhaps you should speak with a minister or priest. Have them explain to you how difficult forgiveness from God comes. At no time does a person evade personal responsibility.

------------------
"Get yourself a Lorcin and lose that nickel plated sissy pistol."

Hutch · August 12, 2000, 04:22 PM

I think he's trying to make it so by saying it's so. Typical political ploy. How many times do we hear the spinmeister tell us what the American people believe? They are trying to make their wishes reality by describing them AS reality. Bullpoop.

John/az2 · August 12, 2000, 05:04 PM

Tecolote,

G50AE has an axe to grind. It's best to ignore his posts when he mentions Christianity or Christians.

As for Clinton... yeah, right... nice show.

------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.cphv.com

EnochGale · August 12, 2000, 06:38 PM

Many people really turn to God after troubles.

Unfortunately, some find God conveniently to avoid punishment. They won't though.

I saw some of interview, personally, I find Buffy is more convincing as a vampire slayer.

What a fraud!

bruels · August 12, 2000, 07:21 PM

Perhaps if he took a vow of poverty? Give up his presidential pension. He can skip the celibacy part.

leedesert · August 12, 2000, 07:54 PM

Isn't amazing how he finds spiritual elightenment just before the convention. What a looser.

G50,

Isn't it easy to attack people when you have the internet to protect you. Please don't characterize Christians with the poor examples you must have had in life.
Jesus will forgive anyone for their sins. This doesn't excuse them from the consequences of their sin. The forgiving part is not easy because you have to truely come to terms with what you have done. Even when you've done that you still have to live with the penalty caused by your sin.
A person is no more a Christian because he says he is then he is an Oak Tree because he says he is. Only God knows his heart but he is judged by both God and man by his actions.

The primary thing is you have to at least admit what you have done in order to be forgiven. Clinton has never admitted he had sex with with anyone. He has never admitted he lied under oath. He has never admitted he lied to the American people. This is just about his deal with Lewinski, let's not start with his other crooked actions.

I can't forgive someone unless they tell me what it is I'm forgiving them for.

------------------
"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
NRA lifer
GOA
GSSF
KABA

Hal · August 12, 2000, 08:07 PM

God can forgive him.
That doesn't mean he isn't still an idiot.
Just a forgiven idiot.

G50,
A Christian asks forgiveness because they know what they did was wrong, and are prepared to not repeat what they did. Bill is sorry he got caught, not sorry for anything he did. 5 will get you 10, as he was doing the misty eye thing, he was checking out some of the local talet in in the audience. The guy is a pig, and without remorse.

G50AE · August 12, 2000, 09:03 PM

The Kristian religion teaches that personal responsability is a non-issue. Since god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent; that means he is everywhere, knows all and has power over all; everything that happens IS the will of god. This belief system by its very definition does not allow for the existance of personal responsability. God created us knowing that we would sin, so therefore he must have wanted us to sin for some reason or another. If god did not want us to sin, he would stop us because according to the Kristian religion, God's will is sovereign over all. Bill Klinton does not have the ability to do anything that god does not want him to, if that were the case it would make god less than omnipotent.

KaMaKaZe · August 12, 2000, 09:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by G50AE:
The Kristian religion teaches that personal responsability is a non-issue. Since god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent; that means he is everywhere, knows all and has power over all; everything that happens IS the will of god. This belief system by its very definition does not allow for the existance of personal responsability. God created us knowing that we would sin, so therefore he must have wanted us to sin for some reason or another. If god did not want us to sin, he would stop us because according to the Kristian religion, God's will is sovereign over all. Bill Klinton does not have the ability to do anything that god does not want him to, if that were the case it would make god less than omnipotent.[/quote]

I believe the point being, that God knows what the future holds in store for you, but you do not. In that sense, you are still in control of your future. Only God knows how it will end.

You may continue to live your life believing that God will always take care of you. Yes, he will.. but he expects you to take care of yourself.

At any rate, I accept your opinion. In the same light, you should do the same of others.

------------------
God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

John/az2 · August 12, 2000, 09:26 PM

G50AE,

That's some cute circular logic.

You're calling the elephant a snake because all you can see is the trunk. You're missing a few pieces.

Since you don't have an e-mail available, this is my invitation to you to take this off the board and discuss it with me.

If you choose not to fill in the gaps with the additional pieces you are missing, then this is my invitation for you to skip all topics that mention Christianity or Christian.

We don't need bigoted bitterness, just your knowledge and enthusiasm for firearms, self-defense, and the 2nd Amendment.

I know that you are knowledgable enough to contribute positively in at least those three areas.

Sincerely,

------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.cphv.com

G50AE · August 12, 2000, 10:21 PM

John/az2,
Thanks for the vote of confidence.

Although I am neither bitter nor bigoted. I guess you couldn't resist taking that cheap shot at someone who does not have the same opinion as you do.

Please don't start a flame war just because you do not (or perhaps cannot) understand what I am saying.

August 11, 2000, 07:28 AM	#1
KaMaKaZe Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2000 Posts: 853	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Clinton candidly admits spiritual struggles Sonya Ross - Associated Press Friday, August 11, 2000 South Barrington, Ill. --- Baring his soul before thousands of evangelical ministers, President Clinton said Thursday he feels "this overwhelming sense of gratitude" to have gained a measure of forgiveness from Americans for his affair with Monica Lewinsky. Clinton sat before an audience of about 4,500 with the Rev. Bill Hybels, senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church and a Clinton adviser since 1992, for his most revealing discussion ever about his spiritual struggles since his affair with Lewinsky, a former White House intern, nearly brought down his presidency. Turning a conference of evangelicals into a public confessional, he called the affair "a terrible mistake." His utterances could have a political impact: Vice President Al Gore, a week away from nomination as the Democratic standard-bearer to succeed Clinton, has suffered in the polls from being tied to a president whose job approval is high but whose ethics have drawn widespread scorn. "It may be that if I didn't get knocked down . . . I might not have had to really deal with it 100 percent," Clinton said, in apparent reference to his impeachment by the House of Representatives. "In a funny way, when you feel there is nothing left to hide, it sort of frees you up to do what you ought to be doing anyway. I feel this overwhelming sense of gratitude. I also learned a lot about forgiveness." He said more than 60 percent of Americans have "stuck with me." As for people who say he never really apologized for what he did, Clinton said those who saw his nationally televised confession --- and watched him cope with the impeachment crisis --- could not possibly doubt his sincerity. "There was a time when I was upset about it. But then I realized that was another form of defensiveness," Clinton said. ". . . It's just a crutch for not dealing with what you're supposed to be dealing with. So I just let it go. I hope people can see it's different." Shortly after admitting to the affair with Lewinsky in August 1998, Clinton received counseling from a trio of ministers, who agreed not to reveal what they discussed with him. Clinton himself has said little about it as he has sought to repair his marriage with Hillary Rodham Clinton and his relationship with his daughter, Chelsea. He said his relations with his family remain an ongoing struggle. He declined to go into more detail. Clinton said the Lewinsky episode was a low moment of his presidency, along with the deaths of American troops in Somalia, the Oklahoma City bombing, and the 1994 backlash against Democrats who supported him in Congress. For those who call his family's church attendance an act intended for public consumption, Clinton said, "I think I have given evidence that I need to be in church. I don't do it for anybody else; I do it for me." Clinton was warmly received, getting a standing ovation from the ministers. Clinton was in South Barrington after a stop in Chicago, where he announced a plan to give lower interest rates to college students who make their first 12 student loan payments promptly, a move that would save them and their parents roughly $600 million over the next five years. Today, Clinton sets off on a fund-raising swing in California. > ON THE WEB: A clergyman's response to Clinton's actions: carpentershomechurch.net/Archive/clinton_whitehouse.htm [/quote] "to have gained a measure of forgiveness from Americans for his affair with Monica Lewinsky." --Not from this American! ------------------ God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

August 11, 2000, 11:15 AM	#2
Keiller TN Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2000 Posts: 483	I saw some of this, but I have a hard time listening to him. Why should we believe him? Let him bring forth fruit in accordance with repentance. ------------------ "Unless the Lord builds the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the Lord guards the city, the watchman stays awake in vain." (Psalm 127:1) "Freedom is given to the human conditionally, in the assumption of his constant religious responsibility." (Alexander Solzhenitzyn)

August 11, 2000, 11:34 AM	#3
bruels Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1998 Location: Hayden, ID, USA Posts: 1,108	He needs to study Jimmy Swaggart. Jimmy can do it with tears.

August 11, 2000, 12:51 PM	#4
Munro Williams Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2000 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 944	Compared to Clinton, poor old Jimmy Swaggart's a piker.

August 11, 2000, 01:24 PM	#5
RH Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 1999 Posts: 504	Notice he didn't mention lying under oath or contempt of a federal court as offenses he needs to repent of. He can say this with his hoarse crackly voice, bite his lip, mist up his eyes, and get a standing O every time. pathetic

August 11, 2000, 04:46 PM	#6
Satanta Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2000 Location: everywhere, U.S.A. Posts: 623	The bible probly burns his hands... ------------------ Satanta, the Whitebear Sat's Realm: http://SatantasRealm.tripod.com/Entr...entrypage.html My Disability petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/DisbHelp/petition.html

August 11, 2000, 11:16 PM	#7
Dangus Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2000 Location: IA Posts: 1,921	You guys, this performance he did on that show was absolutely genious. He mentioned Gore, Hillary, Monica, etc all in one speech, tried to make himself look like the good guy, but also tried to make the others look like they weren't part of it, and he even mentioned that 65% of the population still supported him and he was greatful for thatroflmao. He really is called "Slick" Willy for a reason, this guy is a Jedi master of manipulation and lies. He could have been a good mob boss, only he probably feels more mafia being where he is right now with the ATF acting as his hitmen. ------------------ I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me

August 11, 2000, 11:25 PM	#8
MP Freeman Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2000 Location: Secret volcano lair Posts: 490	..."I also learned alot about forgiveness." Exactly what have you learned Billy? Has your spiritual struggle lead you to contrition?

August 12, 2000, 01:34 AM	#9
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,284	During this "candid admission" did he bite his lip, that seems part and parcel of his routine. Clinton and "candid", talk of the proverbial oxymoron.

August 12, 2000, 05:51 AM	#10
dinosaur Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 1999 Location: NE Pa. Posts: 1,247	I`m confused. Don`t you have to have a conscience to regret something?

August 12, 2000, 09:42 AM	#11
Herodotus Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2000 Posts: 744	Sincere: I doubt it. Everything is padded to his advantage. If he was sincere, he could have resigned and let Gore be President. Is he a loose cannon, rolling around on the ship of state, embarassing all, his own party included? I don't know. All I know is that you never know what is truly going on in this man's head or what he will do tomorrow. Some are saying that this relieves him of any necessity of adressing this issue at his speach at the Democratic National Convention. They say this he has now "brought everything out on the table" on this issue (again) and can now just leave it to largely sympathetic talking heads to comment on it. In this senario, his performance is co-ordinated with the Gore/Lieberman people for political effect. I don't know. It could be a combination of all of the above. The man is complex in a dark way.

August 12, 2000, 10:04 AM	#12
JerryM Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 1999 Location: New Mexico Posts: 846	Repentance includes both sorrow and change. Luke 18:13, Matt. 3:8. It requires confession to God. Confession means to say what God says about the sin. Repentance also includes trying to make right the wrong. There has been no sign of true Biblical repentance from Bill Clinton. He is being counseled by a bunch of liberal ministers who don't practice what the Bible says. Bill Clinton's actions speak for him. 1 John 2:3 "¶And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." Any doubts? Jerry ------------------ Ecclesiastes 12:13 ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

August 12, 2000, 11:12 AM	#13
Karanas Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 1999 Location: Mandeville,LA Posts: 884	Like the little boy who cried wolf, bubba has lied too often for me to ever believe anything that comes out of his mouth. The fact that his admission of this spiritual struggle happens to make the news while his partner in crime tries to distance himself from this ethical and moral pygmy sure is an amazing coincidence.

August 12, 2000, 03:42 PM	#14
G50AE Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2000 Posts: 275	This is typical Christian BS, avoid personal resposability because Jesus will forgive you. Since Klinton is a Kristian, we knew this was coming.

August 12, 2000, 04:11 PM	#15
Tecolote Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 1999 Posts: 1,994	G50AE, I doubt you understand Christianity, because if you did you wouldn't have made the statement above. If you're intersted perhaps you should speak with a minister or priest. Have them explain to you how difficult forgiveness from God comes. At no time does a person evade personal responsibility. ------------------ "Get yourself a Lorcin and lose that nickel plated sissy pistol."

August 12, 2000, 04:22 PM	#16
Hutch Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,125	I think he's trying to make it so by saying it's so. Typical political ploy. How many times do we hear the spinmeister tell us what the American people believe? They are trying to make their wishes reality by describing them AS reality. Bullpoop.

August 12, 2000, 05:04 PM	#17
John/az2 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 1999 Location: Arizona Posts: 2,754	Tecolote, G50AE has an axe to grind. It's best to ignore his posts when he mentions Christianity or Christians. As for Clinton... yeah, right... nice show. ------------------ John/az "When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA! www.cphv.com

August 12, 2000, 06:38 PM	#18
EnochGale Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2000 Location: southwest Posts: 825	Many people really turn to God after troubles. Unfortunately, some find God conveniently to avoid punishment. They won't though. I saw some of interview, personally, I find Buffy is more convincing as a vampire slayer. What a fraud!

August 12, 2000, 07:21 PM	#19
bruels Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1998 Location: Hayden, ID, USA Posts: 1,108	Perhaps if he took a vow of poverty? Give up his presidential pension. He can skip the celibacy part.

August 12, 2000, 07:54 PM	#20
leedesert Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 1999 Location: Ga Posts: 634	Isn't amazing how he finds spiritual elightenment just before the convention. What a looser. G50, Isn't it easy to attack people when you have the internet to protect you. Please don't characterize Christians with the poor examples you must have had in life. Jesus will forgive anyone for their sins. This doesn't excuse them from the consequences of their sin. The forgiving part is not easy because you have to truely come to terms with what you have done. Even when you've done that you still have to live with the penalty caused by your sin. A person is no more a Christian because he says he is then he is an Oak Tree because he says he is. Only God knows his heart but he is judged by both God and man by his actions. The primary thing is you have to at least admit what you have done in order to be forgiven. Clinton has never admitted he had sex with with anyone. He has never admitted he lied under oath. He has never admitted he lied to the American people. This is just about his deal with Lewinski, let's not start with his other crooked actions. I can't forgive someone unless they tell me what it is I'm forgiving them for. ------------------ "It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue" Live long and defend yourself! John 3:16 NRA lifer GOA GSSF KABA

August 12, 2000, 08:07 PM	#21
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 5,994	God can forgive him. That doesn't mean he isn't still an idiot. Just a forgiven idiot. G50, A Christian asks forgiveness because they know what they did was wrong, and are prepared to not repeat what they did. Bill is sorry he got caught, not sorry for anything he did. 5 will get you 10, as he was doing the misty eye thing, he was checking out some of the local talet in in the audience. The guy is a pig, and without remorse.

August 12, 2000, 09:03 PM	#22
G50AE Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2000 Posts: 275	The Kristian religion teaches that personal responsability is a non-issue. Since god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent; that means he is everywhere, knows all and has power over all; everything that happens IS the will of god. This belief system by its very definition does not allow for the existance of personal responsability. God created us knowing that we would sin, so therefore he must have wanted us to sin for some reason or another. If god did not want us to sin, he would stop us because according to the Kristian religion, God's will is sovereign over all. Bill Klinton does not have the ability to do anything that god does not want him to, if that were the case it would make god less than omnipotent.

August 12, 2000, 09:21 PM	#23
KaMaKaZe Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2000 Posts: 853	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by G50AE: The Kristian religion teaches that personal responsability is a non-issue. Since god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent; that means he is everywhere, knows all and has power over all; everything that happens IS the will of god. This belief system by its very definition does not allow for the existance of personal responsability. God created us knowing that we would sin, so therefore he must have wanted us to sin for some reason or another. If god did not want us to sin, he would stop us because according to the Kristian religion, God's will is sovereign over all. Bill Klinton does not have the ability to do anything that god does not want him to, if that were the case it would make god less than omnipotent.[/quote] I believe the point being, that God knows what the future holds in store for you, but you do not. In that sense, you are still in control of your future. Only God knows how it will end. You may continue to live your life believing that God will always take care of you. Yes, he will.. but he expects you to take care of yourself. At any rate, I accept your opinion. In the same light, you should do the same of others. ------------------ God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

August 12, 2000, 09:26 PM	#24
John/az2 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 1999 Location: Arizona Posts: 2,754	G50AE, That's some cute circular logic. You're calling the elephant a snake because all you can see is the trunk. You're missing a few pieces. Since you don't have an e-mail available, this is my invitation to you to take this off the board and discuss it with me. If you choose not to fill in the gaps with the additional pieces you are missing, then this is my invitation for you to skip all topics that mention Christianity or Christian. We don't need bigoted bitterness, just your knowledge and enthusiasm for firearms, self-defense, and the 2nd Amendment. I know that you are knowledgable enough to contribute positively in at least those three areas. Sincerely, ------------------ John/az "When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA! www.cphv.com

August 12, 2000, 10:21 PM	#25
G50AE Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2000 Posts: 275	John/az2, Thanks for the vote of confidence. Although I am neither bitter nor bigoted. I guess you couldn't resist taking that cheap shot at someone who does not have the same opinion as you do. Please don't start a flame war just because you do not (or perhaps cannot) understand what I am saying.