top break 32's + mild loads of Trailboss, + lead balls = lots of fun...

[Magnum Wheel Man]

1st off, THESE ARE NOT PUBLISHED & TESTED LOADS SO DO NOT DUPLICATE... maybe I'm getting old... ( OK, I know I'm getting older, but am not over the hill yet )...

but shooting these 100 year old top break revolvers looks to be quite addicting...

I loaded up some new Winchester cases, with some old CCI primers I had, 0.5 grains of Trailboss, & a Hornady lead round ball of .315 diameter & averaging between 47 & 48 grains in weight...

these were to be my test loads for gun function for the 6 or so 32 caliber top breaks I reciently added to my collection...

1st gun to test was an old Hopkins & Allen 3.5" barrel exposed hammer double action, that had been re-nickeled before I bought it... at 10 paces, despite a pretty gritty action in need of some cleaning up, those loads shot an honest 8" - 5 shot group, & the rest of the guns, some in more need of work than the 1st, all seemed to place the shots reasonably at point of aim, & in reasonably tight groups... these were very fun to shoot, the recoil was almost nill, & the noise wasn't any louder that an old style cap gun... even Mrs Magnum found them fun to shoot, asking for another cylider full, even though it was below zero outside ( we were just shooting a board stuck in a snow bank, just outside the back door, not out to the rifle range )... penitration wasn't lethal, only penitrating about 1/2 way through a 3/4" thick pine board... the load was easily safe on all of my old top breaks... I'm going to take that same re-nickeled H&A gun & use it to work up loads a bit hotter...

where I was, the cases were not expanding to the chamber, as I was getting soot the whole length of the outside of all the cases, didn't matter which gun...I'm going to try 0.7 grains next, then go to 0.9... I don't think the 32 S&W case will hold much more than 1 grain of Trailboss without compressing, ( which is not recommended ) so that would probably be a max load, if I think my weakest guns would handle it... I'm going to end up doing one load for all the guns, which will be only what I feel the weakest gun in that caliber can handle...

most of my stuff should be here next week for the 38 S&W... so I'll be busy working up a safe but a bit hotter load for the 32 S&W, & starting loads for the 38 S&W using round balls as well...

these guns have been a "hoot" to shoot ( Iver Johnson owl grip )

any comments & or suggestions welcome...

[Magnum Wheel Man]

so, BTW... any suggestions on how to best meter such small charges of this funny doughnut shaped powder??? I was scaling all my 1st test loads...

[Sam06]

MwM, Those sound Like a real Hoot to shoot(LOL). That was a good one. I have always like those little top break guns and they are so cheap to buy.

As far a measuring that small an amount I would look at cutting down one of the cases with a spent primer and put a handle on it, like a Lee dipper. You can braze a handle to the case. Just measure where the powder comes to in the case and trim it to that length. A full case= the load. Then you dip, brush off extra, and dump into the primed and sized case, you will need a little funnel.

When I was a kid this is the way we did it with old canister powder after we had figured out the right load. I still have a few of the old "Dipper's" around here somewhere.

Lets some pic's of the loaded round.

How about the crimp on the RB? I know theres not much recoil but do you crimp the ball in. That might help with ignition too. You might try a small Magnum Pistol primer.

You are doing the right thing working up slow. I would think those little pistols will grenade fast with just a small mistake in powder.

Good luck, Sam

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I'm pressing the balls into the case just very slightly further than 1/2 way, & adding just the slightest crimp...

honestly, I was going to load just one round 1st ( & prepared for a grenade ) but decided to do five, in case there was some ball ( bullet ) creep, but the light crimp, & light weight ball coupled with almost no recoil, I didn't have any issues in 30 rounds fired...

I thought about a custom dipper ( interestingly... the dipper that came with my Lee dies, was the biggest that Lee I'm sure offers... I think I could fit 3 or 4 - whole 32 S&W cases into the dipper...LOL )

I left my digi camera at work, so Monday I'll put up a pic of one of my guns, with a few loaded rounds... they look just like "shorter bullet" round ball ammo

[Sam06]

What do you think the Velocity is on those, maybe 300-350fps?

How hard can you push one of those old top breaks?

They are so small and delicate I would think you will have to be very easy on them, as it sounds like you are doing. I see so many that are broken I wonder how well they will hold together with, say weekly firing of 50 rounds or so.

They are neat little guns and some appear to made of quality materials but they are so small. I have never taken one appart but I can imagine they are a nightmare to work on. If its like a NAA Mini Revolver I can attest to the difficulty in re-assembling one of them.

I see you are looking to increase your collection and bidding on a H&A.

Of all the Old top breaks which do you think are the strongest/best made in 32 S&W?

Good Luck, sam

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I'm guessing you are close on the velocity SAM...

... & um, yes, there are 2 or 3 other "styles" I'm still trying to get before I quit

[mavracer]

48gr round balls at 3-400fps your going to have to change your screen name LOL.
But crap that does sound like fun I've got an old Iver Johnson owl's head 38 I might have to try that with.to this point I've been using Bull-X rubber bullets in it. I started years ago using parafin wax. makes for some fun indoor practice.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

this is a re-nickeled Hopkins & Allen exposed hammer double action in 32 S&W along with 5 rounds of the ammo described above...

Of all the Old top breaks which do you think are the strongest/best made in 32 S&W?

SAM... I'm probably not best qualified to answer that qustion, but of the examples I've collected, I guess I'd say my Hopkins & Allen Safety Police models look to be stronger, & both mine have coil springs, rather than flat springs ( which I think in general means they were designed or built in the smokeless powder era ) that or the S&W "lemon squeezers" are probably better quality over all than most of the others...

I've also noticed several safety features that seemed way ahead of their time... Iver Johnson has a "safety trigger" model that has a "Glock type" trigger safety... these were made around 1900... NAA has their mid chamber cylinder safety hammer notch in their most modern mini revolvers... I have another non top break built in the late 1800's that has that same mid chamber hammer safety notch built around 1876... the old S&W "lemon squeezers" with their grip safeties... & the Hopkins & Allen Safety Police, has a hammer that drops into position when the trigger is pulled, but after the trigger is released, the hammer raises to a point where it can not contact the firing pin... no need for a transfer bar... alot of these "old guns" are really pretty cool...

[Sam06]

MwM, Thanks for the photo. That is a nice looking little pistol. Whoever did the re-nickle on it did a good job from what i can see. Your rounds look good too. That little round Ball would hit like an over sized BB from a BB gun. I don't think you would get a whole lot of penetration but i think it would make someone leave you alone and go find a band aid.

I know you are'nt loading for anything but the fun factor but it would be kind of neat to take a squirrel with one. I shot a squirrel with my NAA Mini with the 22LR cylinder and it was kind of cool.

Like you I like some odd ball guns and calibers. It is fun to bring them back to life.

Thanks for sharing,

Sam

[Magnum Wheel Man]

as far as measuring the powder, my builder buddy pulled out a little used Lee full dipper set that he offered me for $5.00... 15 powder measures from 0.3 cc to 4.3 cc... he also had an almost unused Lee carbide dieset in 38 S&W that he didn't need any more... so the pieces are coming together for both cartridges...

BTW... I'm looking for one or two of each caliber ( 32 & 38 S&W ) for regular shooters with light loads, the others only need to function... the 0.5 grain load was just my "safe" load to test everything for function, I'm hoping one or two show them selves solid enough to be regular shooters, even if "regular" is still the pop gun loads... one of them I have is an old Iver Johnson "secret service special" that is complete, but probably in the roughest shape as far as firing, light strikes on the primers... so I may have to look at a softer primer cup, but around here, small pistol primers are still in scarce supply, so I feel lucky to have those old CCI's... if it'll shoot well enough to justify the added expense, I was thinking about having E.A. Brown "french grey" that one ???

& this one cleaned up especially nice, no need for re-nickel... it is a Hopkins & Allen Safety Police in 32 S&W...I won't be shooting it regularly, but would like to use it like a BBQ gun 2-3 times a year, with hopefully no shooting involved... I'm looking for a nice vintage tooled brown leather holster for it right now... when I bought it ( also on Gun Broker ) I was told these were "rare" brown plastic grips, but upon closer inspection, they are "rarer" walnut grips...

[Sam06]

That is a nice lookin little pop gun there with the rare Walnut grips(LOL).

Did you will the H&A? Hammerless?

I am glad you fopund some 38 S&W dies, I have a set that are old as all get out. I got them with a Webley 38 S&W when I was a kid. It was one of the 1st center fire pistols I had. I think I was 14 when I got it from a gun for helping him build a hog pen. I loaded it with 36 cal round balls and red dot powder. It was my goto Coon huntin pistol and it finished off a mess of criters on the trap line. I remember one thing the brass lasted forever. I wish I still had it but it got stolen out of my truck.

I went to a buddy of mines shop and he has a bunch of those Top Break guns. He said he did not want to sell them to me cause he knew I would shoot them and did not want to see me fitted with a hook Its probably for the best as I have more projects than time now.

Good luck and when you get them all together and shooting maybe post a range report on all of them. With photos and Chrony data. It would be a blast to read and see. I get tired of hearing about a 500 S&W pushing 400gr bullets at 27000fps

Take care, Sam

[jdscholer]

I've been doing what you're doing with the round ball loads, but have started using HP-38. Had been using Bullseye, but found that the HP-38 actually metered well through my Uniflow powder measure. The bulls eye seemed to smudge grains and wasn't very accurate under about 2 grains.

I use 1 gr. of HP with the round balls, and they shoot very well. I also shoot 77 gr. Lasercast bullets over 1.5 gr. of HP. I carefully worked up to this load, and don't recommend it to anyone else.

I got to thinking, were there any revolvers chambered for 32 S&W (short) that weren't top-breaks? jd

[Magnum Wheel Man]

JD... you can find the American Bull Dog or XL "style" guns in 32 S&W, similar to this one...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=153264125

or this one...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=152056600

or this one...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=152385380



... I reciently bought this one in 38 center fire ( I assume it's 38 S&W ) just got it on Gun Broker & it's not here yet... note the guns in my links, don't have loading gates, but the one I bought does... the ones with loading gates are much rarer... but in defense of the open gate models, the cylinder indexes to where the chambers don't line up with the open gate when firing, so cartridges don't just fall out... but I still don't really like that style myself, & prefer the ones with loading gates... note mine also has the folding hammer, which made it a good addition to my collection, having both the early loading gate, & the folding hammer... however, those parts are more fragile, so while I'll make sure the gun is shootable, it won't be a gun I shoot often... the 3rd link I posted looks to be the one that would be more "shootable" provided it's in as good a shape internally as it is on the outside... er... well if you could get the trigger spring fixed...



SAM... yes I won that H&A... I was actually hoping I'd get out bid, as after I bid on that one, I found one I wanted alot more... now I'll have to find a way to scrape up the funds to get both...

[jdscholer]

When it comes to obtaining more of these little guns, we are probably cutting our own throats by posting these threads. The top breaks are kind of like real estate; they aint making any more of it. I've got two now, (Smiths) and always have my eyes open for more. (Even in pieces) I'm sure that we're not the only weirdos around who enjoy messing with these things.

I think we're on the right track with the round ball gallery loads as far as a steady diet goes, and don't believe that they will cause any harm to the equipment. jd

[Magnum Wheel Man]

glad you didn't see this S&W before I bought it.... ( I think I got a great deal on this one, since my builder buddy offered me twice what I paid for it after he inspected it for me )... I was going to re-nickel if it needed it, but I think it's nice enough I better leave it alone... but am thinking about a set of replica grips & shooting this one, as the action is really nice & solid... it's in 38 S&W

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Well, I loaded up 10 rounds each of 0.7 & 0.9 grains of Trailboss with the same round ball for the 32 S&W last night... looks like somewhere between 1.0 & 1.2 grains would be the max the case would hold with that ball & not compress the powder... I haven't had the time to try them yet, but hope to this weekend... the 0.3 cc Lee dipper will still be much too big for the 32 S&W, but should be OK for a starter load in the 38 S&W...

I was looking through several load books last night, & thinking, & I'd bet that with that very light weight round ball, that the fps figures we were talking about earlier were probably 100-200 fps slower than actual... of course this is just speculation based on charges of Trailboss vrs bullet weights of the 38 S&W Long ( the closest cartridge I could find with published data for Trailboss )... it's suppose to be warmer this weekend ( above zero... yee haw )... maybe I'll rig up a temp set up with the chrony to see about where I'm at for speeds, though pressures are more of a concern to me than velocity... I'm also curious about penitration of a 22 lr out of my NAA mini using the same pine board stuck in a snow bank, that I used last weekend with the 32 S&W... what I'm really looking for as far as pressures, is just enough to expand the brass enough to seal against the chamber walls, to prevent sooting of the outside of the cases, not much more than that... I'm quite sure if I had a pressure barrel, my chamber pressures are extremely low right now, & I'd like to keep them as low as possible, but want the brass to seal against the sides of the chamber walls...

[Magnum Wheel Man]

this gun is similar to the gun I 1st pictured but has not be re-nickeled... the current price looks like it's going to sell cheap ( at $25.00 with 3 days to go )

as far as shooting mine, I think its good enough for the loads I've listed so far, for range & fun shooting...

I personally wouldn't think of it as any kind of carry gun ( even though mine came with a carry holster ) because the firing pin is part of the hammer, & it, when down, always protrudes through the frame by design... you can turn the cylinder so that the firing pin rests between cartridges, which in that position, it's very safe... it kind of "nests" between the rims & keeps the cylinder from turning accidentally however, if you were to forget to index the cylinder so the firing pin went between chambers, & the hammer was sitting on a live round, I have no doubt you could fire the gun just by pushing on the hammer... not a good thing for carry purposes... my gun in this form, is however one of the more accurate guns I have in 32 S&W, & IMO, makes a cool range toy with ball loads in 32 S&W...

of course I have no eye deer of the actual condition of this gun, & don't know the seller at all, but the price seems very reasonable "right now" hard telling where it will be in 3 days though... but it has been listed for a while, without much interest... EDIT oops... noticed it's H&R not a H&A like mine, so not sure of the similarities ???

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=153492943

BTW.. JD... after looking through my reference material, HP-38 looks to be one of the better choices for this type of reloading( though I didn't see any published data for this particular cartridge )... I don't personally have any HP-38, but when I sort out my shooting irons for function, & find the couple I plan on shooting regularly, I'll probably try a few other powders... I load alot with Unique already, so might have to try a couple with that powder... & maybe try to find a can of HP-38 as well ???

BTW #2, for anyone planning on shooting these... almost all of them are running critical internals that are not hardened, so the parts are much more subject to wear than most modern guns, so a good clean inside, & a good lubing of internal parts IMO, would be critical if you are planning on putting any amount of balls down the pipe ( or bullets for that matter )

BTW #3... it wouldn't be very nice to bid against me on one of the other guns that he's selling, that I'm currently the high bidder on...

[Magnum Wheel Man]

Just bought this Safety Police factory snubbie ( 2" barrel ) in 32 S&W... so that will give me an assortment of barrel lengths 2" - 5.5" for the 32 S&W to test while I develope loads & chrony... I'm hoping for a 38 S&W snubbie before too long, as I already have a Safety Police target with factory target grips & a 6" barrel to do the same thing with the 38 S&W cartridge...



this is my blued Safety Police 6" in 38 S&W...



it'll be interesting to see what I get for velocities out of these cartridges, & with a selection of guns that range from roughly 2", through 3.5" - 4", to around 5.5 & 6"... BTW... my builder / mentor & I chose the round ball loadings, because they'll be inherintly more accurate, especially out of guns that the barrels might not be in very good condtion... added with the fact, that the balls are lighter in weight than the bullets, will keep my chamber pressures low, while hopefully getting me up to standard black powder velocities... maybe even a bit above ??? for these old cartridges... I'm really looking forward to some sunny spring days, & some range time wth these old girls...

[Magnum Wheel Man]

& tested a few 32 S&W loads out of my Safety Police snubbie...

32 S&W .315" 47.5 gr round ball 0.5 gr Trailboss CCI 500 primer
average velocity 255 fps
E= 6.9 ftlbs out of 2" barrel
TKO= 0.545 out of 2" barrel
3.4" 5 shot group 2" high at 30ft out of 2" barrel

32 S&W .315" 47.5 gr round ball 0.7 gr Trailboss CCI 500 primer
average velocity 317 fps
E= 10.6 ftlbs out of 2" barrel
TKO= 0.678 out of 2" barrel
1.5" 5 shot group 1.5" high at 30ft out of 2" barrel

32 S&W .315" 47.5 gr round ball 0.9 gr Trailboss CCI 500 primer
average velocity 436 fps
E= 20.0 ftlbs out of 2" barrel
TKO= 0.932 out of 2" barrel
3.5" 5 shot group 3" high at 30ft out of 2" barrel

32 S&W .315" 47.5 gr round ball 1.1 gr Trailboss CCI 500 primer
average velocity 570 fps
E= 32.3 ftlbs out of 2" barrel
TKO= 1.218 out of 2" barrel
4.5" 5 shot group 2.5" high at 30ft out of 2" barrel

maybe the longer barrels won't help with the Trailboss powder...

these results were from a 3" Hopkins & Allen exposed hammer gun...

32 S&W .315" 47.5 gr round ball 0.7 gr Trailboss CCI 500 primer
average velocity 247 fps
E= 6.4 ftlbs out of 2" barrel
TKO= 0.528 out of 2" barrel
3.25" 5 shot group 2." high at 30ft out of 3" barrel

note the lower numbers of the 3" barrel over the 0.7 grain loads out of the 2" barrel...

curious if the 5" barrel will be faster or slower yet ??? maybe slower with the light loads & faster with max loads ???

[Magnum Wheel Man]

... now am looking at keeping the low power round ball load as a "target load", but am looking at doing some lower powered ( reads safe for the gun ) load with a "bullet" to have a couple for novelty level self defense loads, that could maybe at least equal the stopping power of a 22 out of my NAA mini...

I'm thinking about trying some starting loads with 231, or ???

... & any suggestions for light bullets to try ???

looking at these... don't see much similar comercially available ???

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...ber=2046238376

I'm really liking this Hopkins & Allen factory Safety Police snubbie