My Grandpa wants a Taurus Judge...

[Sixer]

The title pretty much says it. My grandfather has his eye on a Taurus Judge. He's a WW2 veteran who owns rifles and is familiar with guns. However, he is a bit rusty when it comes to handguns.

Since I've become a "gun nut" in the past couple years, his interest in owning a handgun has been renewed. I'm trying not to sway him one way or the other, but he does need some guidence. Personally, I'm not much of a revolver guy... yet... but I think a revolver would be his best choice.

He has his eye on the Judge for Home Defense as well as a gun that he could carry with him in the timber (his land). He's a big ol fella so I have no doubt he can handle the 410 / 45LC out of a 3in barrel. Not sure about Grandma though, lol.

Can you help me help him?
Thanks

[publius]

not really my choice of a SD gun but it would be a good knock around the woods gun. do not use the .410 for SD use .45 Colt loads.

[TheGreatDane]

the judge's recoil isn't nearly what I expected. it's pretty tame.

[Qwiks draw]

Question. Is he physically able to shot a handgun or handle a firearm?
Second question. Are there better guns to do the job?

The Judge concept is a good one, but only to a point.

Any firearm, that inludes shotguns or the Judge need to be aimed fire and not point the barrel in the general direction of an attacker and pulled. There are some minor exception to this, but not enough to warrant letting rounds go down range without being sure where the rounds are going to go.

The .45 Colt rounds need to be aimed directly at the attacker/s.

Same goes for the buckshot loads or slugs.

The Judge is a close in contact or not past 7 yards handgun. There are exceptions ot this.

Buckshot are going to spread, and do, very far apart the further the target is from the gun making on target ballistics very sketchy the longer the range.

Multiple hits at close range with many wounds being inflicted is in the Judge's baliwick. The velocity for those projectiles is much less than if the projectiles were delivered from a full length shotgun barrel. This is overlooked too often.

So there are things to consider before getting any firearm for anyone.

Please read the following link about the Judge and the ammo and how it actually performs under real conditions.

Yes, I wrote some of it but had to have Judge owners and users get brought down to earth as to what the gun can and cannot do.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...?topic=23048.0

There are links within the links that will need to be viewed as well.

That said there are things that the Judge does well within it's limits like any other firearm.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=395384
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=392382
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=387902

In the above provided links are the .410 buckshot and .45 Colt real world abilities out of the Judge barrels of various lengths.

Also all you need to know about the Judge. That's from the actual owners of the Judge.

So please consider all this before getting any firearm for your grandfather or one that he buys for himself.

The gun has to fit him, his real world abilities. and his needs. No one elses needs.

There are revolvers that can do the same job or better than the Judge.

Same goes for pistols.

There are Beretta 86s in .380 ACP that have tilt up barrels for loading and unloading. Racking the slide is not needed. The Beretta 86 is know a used gun proposition, but seems to be found out there at stores, online sites, and other places.

Same goes for Beretta 21As in .22lrf or .25 ACP. These are traditional DA/SA pistols

Taurus has the DAO only PT22 and PT25 that have the tip up barrels as well.

These are not power houses by any means. They are user friendly and infirm people can use them. Infirm people can use reolvers as well.

The large documented number of cases in just the last few years by the NRA and other soures show that a lot of 65+ years of age gun owners saving their lives with anything from the above suggested guns to .38 Special and 9mm. guns. So it can be done.

[kraigwy]

I bought my wife a judge.......she's a gramma.........also quite small, add to that she has three rods in her back between here shoulders.

She cant work the slide on my autos, even the PPK.

She shoots the Judge with no problems. She likes it, she wanted it for rattlers when she's riding her horse.

Apparently it works, she's killed three that I know of.

I disagree with those who say its not good SD pistol. I've seen what #2&#4 shot does to 3/8s plywood at 15 feet. I'm convinced it would discourage bad bahavier.

I think shooting a car jacker or simular bandits in the face with #2/4 shot would allow you to get to higher ground.

If grandpa wants a judge, let him buy one.

[Qwiks draw]

Oh,yes. Never assume what a criminal is going to do. There are no average responses by violent criminals and what they will do if hit or not by projectiles.

You can't be sure that a bad guy is going to react the way you want them to or that they will be actually stopped or injured enough to be stopped.

Fuzzy Wuzzies, Jihadists, violent criminals, Zulus, and others have not been impressed by massed fire power and went on to kill and cause grave bodily harm. Even when fatally hit.
I can bring the history of all that if need be.

[Sixer]

Thanks for the input guys! This is exactly the type of feedback I was looking for.

I have no doubt that my Grandfather could handle the slide on an auto. Like I said, he's still a big old guy Ten years down the road may be a different story though... so I feel like he's on the right track with a revolver.

He specifically asked me about Bobcats, which he is probably more likely to encounter than a BG. I told him that I thought the .45LC should be enough to discourage most critters in the Midwest. HD, although unlikely in his small rural town, is obviously still an issue. I personally would not care to be on the business end of either the .410 or .45LC.

I made sure to tell him not to get his heart set on any certain gun UNTIL we get a chance to hit up the LGS or Cabela's. I won't advise him to buy anything he hasn't had the chance to at least handle.

Also forgot to mention that he was an over the road trucker for 30 years back in the day. He carried a pistol (usually a revolver) with him nearly all the time. So he is familiar and competent with handguns, it's just been a while.

[rodfac]

A friend brought his out to try on our farm range. The buck shot loads by Federal printed a 4-5" spread at 15 ft and did not penetrate a 3/8" plywood sheet backed by 3/4" poplar fencing, half rotten. I was underimpressed to say the least.

With the .45 LC loads, Cowboy loads, each and every one of them key holed at the same distance...but did penetrate the above mat'l.

The trigger was abominable, fit and finish was crude...I'd say it was a waste of money. If he has self defense in the home as his goal, then a good short barreled shotgun makes a lot more sense and the noise of him racking a shell into the breech is a well known deterent.

My opinion, others have had different results.

Rodfac

[bluetopper]

Sounds like to me the question has been decided. You can analize the choices to death, like the long post above, but for what? If Grandpa wants a Judge....he wants a Judge. You two go get one. He's plenty experienced enough to make up his own mind.

Kinda like trying to change your wife's mind about what kind of car to buy. She's not going to be happy unless she gets what she wants.

[dakota1911]

I have thought about buying one to play with. It is an interesting idea.

[gun_king]

I have a Taurus Judge Public Defender and I absolutely love it!

[Qwiks draw]

If anyone wants a Judge and can handle it, fine.

It can be used for self defense, fine.

The gun does have limitations and the owners and users need to realize what those are. Only flesh and bone count in the real world and what the happens with them.

No other medium,paper, gelatin, plywood, or any other medium is valid. Some mediums approximate what might happen, but that is all.

I can take a .22lrf solid or JHP and blow a hole through a large bar of soap that makes the .22lrf look like a super duper self defense round. Same thing with .17 caliber pellets. Yet we all know those are poor choices for any defense application.

So shooting through wood is not an indicator. Name me a person made of wood.

The velocities are low for the self defense ammo. That's whether the bullet or buckshot are used. The bullet has a better chance of stopping under most circumstances.

Penetration will not be as deep as if shot from a full length shotgun barrel.

You are hoping that the bad guy is going to have to be on top of you or close enough that he/she can still do major damage with a knife/blunt object range for the gun to be effective with buckshot. Maybe even little shot.

Then again your situation may not bring the attacker into that close a range. It might, but that is no guarantee that whatever criminal attack will be breathe up close and personal.

Lack of velocity means lack of penetration. So the buckshot might do the job and again, it might not.

There is an ever increasing documentation by police of the fact that many miscreants are taking one or more full loads of buckshot, 12 gauge that is, and are still up and fighting. That or they if the person shot wanted to they could well go on and still kill or gravely harm someone.

As of know there are no documented cases of anyone being stopped by a Judge fired load of buckshot. Do you want to bet your life and the lives of others on that? Do you want to be the test case for the real world does it work or not? Not me. I'd rather have the .45 Colt loads in place.

If the enemy is within touching distance then there is the likelihood that a contact shot under extreme duress will need to be made. The idea is to put room between you and your attacker. Get off the main line of attack if possible. The contact shot unless needed, is a last chance only to survive shot. You cannot bet that the drug doper, "man on a mission", adrenalin soaked mind, is going to "just give up". Reality isn't like that.

You cannot assume what will happen during an attack, predict how it will go, how it will unfold, that you or others will not hurt while the attack is going on, that you might be able to get off a shot or shots at all, or how things will end. We can figure out what might happen, but you have to be prepared for all eventualities. Got a crystal ball or tea leaves that tell you ahead of time how things will go down. Not me. Hostage or others in the same room or line of fire happen all the time. Got that one figured out? Where are all the projectiles going to go when you unleash them? Have a magic wand to make sure they all strike the bad guy/s? Didn't think so. So what if another person is struck by errant projectiles? Hey, Life is cheap.

Since life is not cheap morale and ethical issues enter into the equation.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=1976.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=5162.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=1603.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=797.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=8590.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/in...p?topic=1926.0

The Judge is a very close range gun with buckshot. Longer range with the .45 Colt loadings. I'd rather be more prepared for most things that are possible to be prepared for. That's true for the .45 Colt loadings.

In a violent struggle can you guarantee exactly what will happen or how it will come out? Documented real world cases on such things prove that it cannot be done. One can plan for most things, but not all.

Before making suggestions make sure you go through all the links. Most if not all things were covered in them.

Like I said, if you want to be the test cases for the buckshot stopping someone. Go ahead if you feel lucky. I will be waiting here for the reports.

[gun_king]

Its not what you shoot with, but rather how you shoot with what you have. Shot placement. I mean a .22 bullet to the eyeball is going to cause a lot of pain and damage. Lol.

[B.N.Real]

Grampa is an adult.

He's your elder.

If you have reservations about his choice,tell him one time and let it go.

He might buy the Judge and shoot it once and put it away.

Or he might really like it.

Either way it's his choice and his money.

Heck,take him and his new Judge to the range for a day of shooting.

[Webleymkv]

I see no reason that a Judge wouldn't be sufficient for the purposes you describe. Loaded with birdshot, it'd be awfully handy for venomous snakes and other such pests. Loaded with .45 LC rounds, it'll deliver an adequate self-defense cartridge and be "minute-of-badguy" accurate at most reasonable self-defense ranges.

[bamaranger]

BNReal, man, how does one go about following that post!!?? Sub consciously, I said, "yes Sir", and turned to look for my Dad. Hard to argue against a comment like that.

I think lots of the Judge revolvers are being bought by folks just like the OP 's
Grand Daddy. Shop owner's in my area say they are selling like hot cakes.

My only suggestion is to make sure PaPa handles one. I have not, but they look enormous in the gun cases in the shops. Almost ponderous, not sure I'd want to pack one around in the back 40 myself.

[drrpg01]

I would steer him toward a good old S&W 4" 357, but then I'm an S&W man. Can't beat their fit and finish for a revolver.

[Qwiks draw]

Taking your grandfather to the local store that has a range and let him try out or fire the different kinds of guns.

There are also NRA basic courses, one on one, or larger class size where he can be introduced to the various models of gun and see what's best for him.

Local ranges and gun shops should have access to NRA accredited and credentialed instructors. I've had to stand back and let others teach family members to shoot even though I'm qualified to teach the basics.

Since it has been a while since he's shot, an assumption on my part, then letting him get the basics down first might be a good idea.

Whether he picks the Judge or some other gun, even a pistol, if that's what fits him and his needs means he can be confident when and if the time comes to use the gun. That's for fun or defense.

The shooters in my local informal bulls eye group are mostly 60 years plus of age. Some shoot center fire ( only 30 rounds per 1 day session, once a week), some shoot only the .22lrf version with the same round count, and others shoot both center fire and the .22lrf as a 2 gun set of stages. This not only keeps us old geezers proficient, but adds fun and commiserating together after the shoot.

Let him try out as many different types as is possible.

For example. I like and own many .357/.38 Special revolvers and 9mmx19 pistols. I can tailor the ammo/ gun combintation to fit the mission or need.

Lately I've been going to the .327 Federal caliber and the various other 32 calibers in revolver and pistol guises.

Getting older and a bit infirm mean that I have a fallback position to the .32s if and when needed.

In revolvers I have a Taurus snub in .327 Federal, a Ruger SP101 in that caliber, and a Ruger GP100 in the same caliber as well. These can also shoot the .32 H&R magnum, and the .32 S&W Long rounds. These are more prolific than in times past, yet are gentle if need be for practice. If not the power level can be ramped up to what is needed or can be handled.

I also procured a Taurus PT132, Beretta 3032 Tomcat, and a NAA Guardian. All are in .32 ACP. While the .32 ACP is no power house the newer generation JHPs have helped " get it up off it's knees" and make it a viable self defense round for those who cannot shoot something with more power.

The Tomcat comes with a tip up barrel so that the slide never need to be racked for loading or unloading.

All these 32 caliber guns can be used by those who live at home and are proficient to shoot either revolver, pistols, or both.

Recoil can cause flinch and the lowered powered rounds help in that area.

Shoot with what one one can and shoot it well. For some that might mean a low powered round and that is all the further things will go. It happens more than some will give things credit for. So it is wise to keep ones options open.

Who knows. Grandpa might take well to the Judge or some rip snorting round.

Don't know until he tries.

[Elvishead]

Get him a S&W Sigma.

[EdInk]

Let him get one. If he's able to handle a gun safely at 80+ years old, then which one he wants is a blessing of a concern.

000 Buckshot is a good close range manstopper from a judge. .45LC
is still a good round for longer distance. And for playing in the woods it is an excellent overall choice.

[22-rimfire]

I thought about buying the longer barreled 45/10 revolver when they first came out. Thought the idea very interesting and certainly fun. I had visions of shooting skeet or hunting rabbits with the 410 loads. As time when on, that idea was certainly poo-poo'd as it didn't match the reality of the performance of the 410 ga from a short rifled handgun barrel.

Then you have the 45LC which is a very effective defense caliber. My impression is the 45/10 revolver is very average with the round due to the long cylinder sized for the 410 shell.

I now view the revolver as just a more effective snake gun in 410 ga than say a 38spl or 22 with shot shells.

Hence I have never purchased one of these revolvers fully expecting that it would be fun, but not as effective as I would like in the 410 ga use. I have other revolvers for 38 or 357 and don't need a 45 for home defense.

I think there are better choices for self defense and I would probably lean toward a 38spl revolver such as a Smith Model 10 used. They are still pretty reasonable, effective, and very practical for home defense or carrying around the woods or farm. Want something new? Go with a Ruger GP100 and load it with 38spl's (+P's) for home defense or 357's for woods walks.

It is his money and he can do what he wants. My father could certainly afford to make a mistake or buy a gun that may not be as practical as perhaps other choices. My point is... he can have fun too. I certainly think any home invader would think twice about getting shot with a 410 with buck shot and he has five quick rounds to fire if necessary. More than likely he would probably not kill the invader. His call.

[Pyzon]

My observations and/or opinions from sending 800+ rounds down the pipe of my 3"X3" model Judge over the past year and some change, half .45 Colt, half 3" .410:

1.) Yep, snakes are pulverized at realistic ranges using #4 or #6 shot, as were muskrats, possums, and the like. I also rabbit hunt with beagles, and toting the Judge as the only means of harvesting a rabbit is big fun for sure. Loud as hell though.
2.) Home rolled 3" loads of lead BB is a pretty potent home or vehicle defense choice. Chrono'd at 900+ fps, with penetration plenty adequate to ruin permanently the future of 2 legged dirtballs. Again, let's be realistic about TYPICAL HD/VD range. It is not a 15 yard event unless your living room is a gym, or you're defending in a bus and are shooting from one end to the other. The biggest room dimension in my 2600 sf ranch is around 22 feet, and that is only 7.34 yards after all. Nope, you guys are correct when you say birdshot is a lousy defense choice. Not a surprise. If you choose properly loaded for handgun 000 or 0000 buck (try http://www.paraklesetechnologies.com...cts.asp?cat=13) I don't think performance will be too lacking for HD/SD. In my case, 5-000 Buck balls cover a 12" circle at 8 yards. Acceptable pattern IMHO.
3.) Forget .410 slugs. They are as anemic from a short barrel as they are in a long one.
4.) .45 Colt is the star for longer range, and if you look hard enough (or load your own) you can find some fine choices of loads and bullets. And don't worry about the long distance from cylinder to forcing cone. At 25 yards it doesn't make a difference in my Judge, as all 5 stay in a 4-5" circle. Again IMHO, acceptable. As mentioned before, if the threat is 25 yards away, it is not really a shootable threat yet anyway.
5.) Please don't compare available .45, .40 or what have you #9 shot loads available for pistols. With a 3" .410 load, we're talking better than 3/4 of an ounce of shot. Sure, 12 gauge 3" loads are a whole different game, but that package is way less portable, not that a Judge is exactly a pocket pistol.

My advice is to get Grandad to a place he can hold and fondle a Judge. My range even rents a couple of models, and they are dirty constantly.

If he likes it, what the heck ? My grandads died before I was old enough to do much of anything for them, and it would make me smile if you can do what I could not.

And don't worry about all the opinions of folks that have yet to shoot whatever they like to criticize. It just amazes me how much of that exists.

[Ron Bernert]

If Grandad wants a Judge, get him a Judge! If your Grandad is anything like my (deceased) Grandad, if the old coot doesn't like it, he'll hand it to you and say "Here. Now you owe me lunch" and you have yourself a new Judge. If he likes it, you can still buy him lunch!

[Sixer]

Lots of great info guys. I appreciate all the feedback and links!

I have a feeling that the man wants a Judge... That said, we will definitely be making a trip to the Gun Shop for a "handling session" before any purchases are made.

He could very well change his mind, but for now I don't see any reason to steer him away from the Judge.

If Grandad wants a Judge, get him a Judge! If your Grandad is anything like my (deceased) Grandad, if the old coot doesn't like it, he'll hand it to you and say "Here. Now you owe me lunch" and you have yourself a new Judge. If he likes it, you can still buy him lunch!

Lol, you know, I can actually picture him doing that. Hopefully he does like it though... either way I'm sure I do owe him a lunch or two

[BigJimP]

It would be cool, if you would buy it for him -- give it to him as a gift...(if you can afford it )... But this whole thing may be less about the gun vs spending time with you on the search for the gun .....

I'm not a big fan of the Judge ...although I think its ok. I much prefer a good S&W 4" revolver in .357 mag ( and I can shoot .38's in it / if the arthritis in my hands and wrist is bothering me ).

There are a lot of very good clean revolvers coming out of a lot of safes lately - older model 19's, 27's, 28's, 66's etc ...and they're all great guns ( even real clean, selling for under $ 750 for the most part / in Nickel, blued or stainless ) ... and a little elbow grease and some good polish you can make them look like a million dollars ...... I really like these old S&W revolvers in 4" ( I'm buying up a lot of them as I see them in model 19, 27 and 66 / especially nickel versions in the 19's and 27's )...and I'm holding them to pass onto some of my adult kids / and some of my grandkids now ( I have 10 now ...) ...they're great guns..