Mirage X Ceramic Knives, our policies, etc...

[MAD DOG]

Having just returned from Africa, I have only now read the character assassinations as well as the positive comments on the closed thread regarding this general topic.

I would endeavor now to clear up some obvious misconceptions put forth as truth by my detractors.

1) I do not have a website of my own, where I offer knives or other products for sale. All of the websites currently extant that offer my products for sale belong entirely to the dealers that offer the products.
I simply manufacture them, and then sell to the dealers. I make no direct sales to private parties.

2) The Mirage X series of knives was developed at the behest of certain military groups that need the features that these knives and other MX products offer. Several highly specialized Mirage X based products have never, and will never see the light of day in the civilian market. Some Mirage X products have been offered to certain elements of the civilian market by our dealers in a shameless attempt to actually make some money for a change. I heartily endorse this behavior.

3) Some states have forbidden the sale or possession by civilians of non metallic knives within their borders. This ruling *generally* applies to civilians, but not police or military. The language of these onerous laws is ambiguous at best, and therefore our dealers are prone to favor language in their literature that will assist them in allaying any legal concerns by local government.
We do require our dealers to be up to speed on the laws where they operate, and not sell or offer for sale any prohibited item. We have no wish to be a party to any illegal action.
The "civilian" version of the Mirage X was designed so that persons living in areas prohibiting non metallic knives could still own a knife with the Mirage X's marvelous cutting ability, corrosion resistance, and other attributes.

4) We RECOMMEND that our dealers sell the Mirage X equipment only to police, military, and CCW holders, officers of the court, Medical professionals, and persons known to them to be of good moral character. We do not, and have not, specifically forbidden sales of any of our products to any distinct class of person. It is our fervent prayer that our products are never used for the purposes of Evil.

5) As always, our dealers are free to make their own informed decisions as to who they sell to, the content of their sales literature or other promotional material, and which products they offer.

Thank you for the opportunity to address these issues.
Mad Dog

[14inches]

Mad Dog

A gun or knife dealer actualy attempting to make some money? Oh my God. Somebody get a rope.

[cuerno de chivo]

so you still don't trust joe citizen, but you don't require your dealer to not trust joe citizen?

which states prohibit non-metallic knives?

you've got a great product, lousy policy. not as bad as spyderco (who does require its dealers to not trust joe citizen with their matriarch) though.

[Ivanhoe]

I think that you should atone for your sins by sending me a Baby Mako with half-serrated edge, LH sheath.

[Tim Burke]

cuerno de chivo writes- <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>so you still don't trust joe citizen, but you don't require your dealer to not trust joe citizen?[/quote]
I don't know how you get this from MAD DOG's post.
If you don't like MD's policies, then you probably should be working for tort reform. Given the present legal climate I think his policies are perfectly reasonable.

[Arnistador]

As of 1/1/00, California prohibits the sale to civilians of any knife that cannot be detected by a standard metal detector. This inane law makes it technically illegal to sell plastic picnic knives. Duh.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment

[cuerno de chivo]

Read 4 again Tim.

Anymore non-metallic banners besides California??

Mad Dog makes great products. I just don't like the company's policy against Joe Citizen. I understand it. I undestand SW's new policies too. It doesn't mean that I have to like it or ignore the fact that it exists.

[MAD DOG]

Cuerno de chivo,
I do not know who "Joe Citizen" is, and have never heard of anyone going by that name.
Irrespective of the current political climate, I do not "trust" anyone that is not personally known to me.
Do you?
I sincerely doubt that you are that naive. However, I will take it as read that you would have us believe in your commodious faith in the commonalty, and would exhort us to similar expansiveness.

Thank you for your input, and have a pleasant tomorrow,

Mad Dog

[Arnistador]

Cuerno de chivo,

We do not have any policies against the average citizen. Many of our happy customers are "average citizens." If there is a product that you would like to have, call us and interact with us on a personal level.

Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, and almost all the respected national training facilities have similar policies and require signed statements of good character by upstanding members of the community before allowing potential students to train at their facility. I wonder why no one complains about those policies.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment

[cuerno de chivo]

if i sold a knife, i'd sell it to anyone to anyone legally allowed to own knives instead of going for stricter requirements like smith and wesson.

[C.R.Sam]

If a manufacturer has dealers for his product, then it is honorable for that dealer to not sell direct to the end user in competition with his dealers.

There are a multitude of reasons for a manufacturer to request that his dealers qualify the end user of the product. Some legal and some moral.

Mad Dog's paragraph 4 does not seem to preclude the average citizen from purchasing the product. "Of good moral charactor" seems very reasonable to me.

I see no connection between Mad Dog's policies and S&W's agreement with the government and their new dealer agreements.

Sam....follow me, the road is just over that ridge.

[This message has been edited by C.R.Sam (edited July 23, 2000).]

[George Hill]

cuerno de chivo - give it a rest.
Or better yet - give us your personal email address - set that in your profile to make your email available to the public.

Okay - my point being is this... You, Sir are up to this point afraid of publishing your email address for fear of possible miss deads of others? Flames, Spamming, or Something like that? Am I close?
Doesnt matter...
Now - Look at the liability faced by someone making knives... a potential weapon that could be used for a great deal of evil... especailly since it has certain properties that require more attention to details with regards to who purchases them than say... just publishing your email address.

So - I say again - Give it a rest cuerno de chivo... And go buy Frost Cutlery knives.

[shiroikuma, Anchorage AK]

Hey Chivo has a legitimate point, don't blame him for talking about it. I haven't seen anything said here that excuses that kind of exclusionary behavior on the part of manufactures, be they making knives or body armor or anything else. If you don't support freedom of speech just say so!

shiro

[cuerno de chivo]

hey they have an admitted policy that they prefer that their dealers not sell to the man off the street (which was a moderator's original complaint).

if we can bitch about sw policies or ruger policies or remington's new key lock safety, then we can bitch about mad dog's coporate policy as well. though it would be more appropriate in general or legal (as the excellent, less emotional moderator mal h pointed out in the handgun forum about a sw post).

[This message has been edited by cuerno de chivo (edited July 24, 2000).]

[Bubba]

I have used my Mirage-X all over the world. The most common comment... How do you TRAVEL with that? The FEAR that appears on their faces as I explain the Mirage-X is amazing. They are TOTALY freaked out until I explain that only Law Enforcement and others who have been "certified" can obtain these tools.

My point here is most of the world can not handle the concept of an undetectible knife. It scares them to death. So what happens if... one of these folks gets soooo scared.. he sues. No one has been hurt yet.. but he still sues. Because a "boogie man" MIGHT be able to take one of these on an airplane and cause damage. MD Labs would take it in the shorts. Right now... only LEO, military and other folks of "good moral characture" can get them. How do you prove that??? The easiest way for dealers and customers is CCW. You want to get a letter from your chief of police to show you are a good guy? Cool.. That's what you would do if you went for training at Thunder Ranch, Gunsite or Blackwater.

What I keep hearing here is little boys crying cuz someone has a toy they can't get with mommy's credit card. If you want one.. there are versions you can buy. For the concealed versions, do the paper work.

These knives are not cheep and they are not for everyone. They have a lot of utility. They hold an edge forever. They are not the holy grail. Abuse them and they will break. They are CERTAINLY not pry bars. But if you have a REASON for a ceramic knife, there are none better. There are the civilian models for that purpose. If you do have a valid reason for an undetectible model... it shouldn't be a hard task to explain and document that reason.

This doesn't have anything to do with Freedom of Speech. But whining to the mfg with the attitude of.. If I want one, you should sell it to me regardless of who I am and if you don't then you are a jerk... well THAT'S the part of this discussion that is getting WAY old. It just seems to come up about every 4 months. The rest of us are tired of it.

Bubba

[cuerno de chivo]

what's your valid reason for for an 'undetectable' knife bubba? are you some sort of secret government operative?

[This message has been edited by cuerno de chivo (edited July 25, 2000).]

[G50AE]

Bubba, if this discussion is getting old, then you should write Mad Dog encouraging them to change their ridiculous policy.

[DScott]

Tim,
If I read the law correctly, I think it actually prohibits California dealers from "importing or manufacturing" such undetectable knives for "commercial sale"... it doesn't actually appear to ban possession of these knives. What's to stop an out-of-state dealer or private party from making the sale? Or what if it was a gift? Would that be prohibited? I'm not really clear about that.

BTW, I think MD Labs can have whatever policy they want (I know, I know, you're welcome! ). But maybe the negative reaction to this policy comes from the "good moral character" condition... it feels pesonal, and it's a lot more vague than "LEO/Military only" which is clear and unambiguous.

$.02 from the new guy...

David

[Arnistador]

DScott,

As I understand it, an out of state dealer could not be prosecuted by California courts for violation of this law, though it has been postulated by some lawyers that he/she could be liable in their his/her own state for conspiracy to commit a crime (even though the crime would occur in another state.) I am not an attorney, so I am not sure. I do know that we have been notified by local law enforcement that this does apply to our business and that we are restricted from selling these items to civilians within California.

As far as matters of sales policy, whenever you restrict an item, someone will be upset. As with Mad Dog, we sincerely hope that the product we distribute will be used for the purposes of good. We believe that the law abiding citizen should be allowed to own anything he/she wants; however, in these times it can become difficult to determine who is law abiding and who is not. Restricting to LE/Military is typically too restrictive, so there must be some middle ground.

As I said earlier, all respected training organizations require signed statements of good character. No one complains about these policies. What we require is much less.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment

[DScott]

Tim,
Understood. BTW, the CA penal code section on these knives is as follows for anyone who is interested. I think it's pretty clear what you as a dealer can and can't do. From http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/dwc.htm :

12001.1. (a) Any person in this state who commercially manufactures or causes to be commercially manufactured, or who knowingly imports into the state for commercial sale, keeps for commercial sale, or offers or exposes for commercial sale, any undetectable knife is guilty of a misdemeanor. As used in this section, an "undetectable knife" means any knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death that is commercially manufactured to be used as a weapon and is not detectable by a metal detector set at standard calibration.
(b) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, commencing January 1, 2000, all knives or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death that are commercially manufactured in this state that utilize materials that are not detectable by a metal detector shall be manufactured to include materials that will ensure they are detectable by a metal detector set at standard calibration.
(c) This section shall not apply to the manufacture or importation of undetectable knives for sale to a law enforcement or military entity nor shall this section apply to the subsequent sale of these knives to a law enforcement or military entity.
(d) This section shall not apply to the manufacture or importation of undetectable knives for sale to federal, state, and local historical societies, museums, and institutional collections which are open to the public, provided that the undetectable knives are properly housed and secured from unauthorized handling, nor shall this section apply to the subsequent sale of the knives to these societies, museums, and collections.


BTW, do you guys still carry Edge Pro sharpening systems? I've been trying to get a quote for a while now... email me as to the best way to get this info. Thanks!

[email protected]

[ceramics]

The Mirage X is very difficult to buy if you're not military because it's invisible to metal detectors. Why do people want them? Well, that's obvious. Ceramic kitchen/utility knives will set off a metal detector because, as you know, metal is added for public safety reasons. If you search the web and watch videos explaining how the ceramic blade is manufactured you'll notice that they leave out the part on how and where the metal is added.

Virtually all ceramic kitchen/utility knives made today have metal added. Metal is usually placed inside the handle and trace amounts of rare elements are often added during the sintering process - to make them more easily detectable by security devices in an effort to prevent our them from being used in ways they are not intended.

Take a look at the security enhanced blade of one of the major manufacturers, URI Eagle (Kyocera and others also use elements in the blade).
http://urieagle.com/pr/knive****rimat.jpg
http://urieagle.com/pr/Knivestrimat.jpg
http://urieagle.com/pr/knivesbw.jpg

Ceramic knives with no metal added are almost non-existant. However, if you have access to a ceramics manufacturer and can customize exactly what you want, well, there you go. It's a little more expensive that way since there are minimum orders and fees but that is the only way short of purchasing a military-grade knife.

I've noticed that a lot of people have shown interest in ceramic knives such as the Mirage X on this and other forums. I have quite a few custom made ceramic knives if anyone is interested, just send me an email. I'm not sure that I would sell any but I'd like to see if there is any interest. The knives I had made aren't as long as the Mirage because ceramic is prone to chip and fracture so I made it a little shorter.

Dave C.

[email protected]