I just read about another 9mm failure to stop today. The Capitol Building Shooting...

45automan · December 19, 2000, 05:04 PM

Hay guys this is not to flame the 9mm. I like it and own a few 9mm pistols. My Glock 19 is my cuurent favorite 9mm.
Now that thats out of the way. I was reading Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcment magizine. They sited the Capitol building shooting a few years back. The one where the guy came in shooting a .38 revolver. Any way they say a Capitol police officer engaged the man with his S&W 5946 9mm pistol. They go on to say how the subject was struck several times with the 9mm and failed to stop and then pusued a woman through to another room. He was then met by another officer who he shot at point blank range. The officer was mortally wounded but shot the perp before he fell. So the .38 failed too.
Mind you this is all a precourser to the article about how the Capitol PD switched to the .40 Glock 22.
Now that would have made a world of diffrence right?

It seems that every time the police upgrade their guns the gun rags find a failure with the old stuff.
Jim Cirillo who was probably involved in more shoot outs than any LEO in morden history made due with .38 LRN at that. I'am just sick of the gun rag press is all. Sorry for the rant.
45automan

MH · December 19, 2000, 05:12 PM

Cirillo in his video definitely prefers high powered ammo. He cited cases where 38 round nose failed spectacularly. I am going to investigate fragmented ammo such as Corbon Beesafe or Magsafe as a partial answer to weak performance by hangun calibers. As a civilian at low risk, I carry 9 mm or 32. If I were an officer at high risk, I might prefer the 40 over the 9.

RikWriter · December 19, 2000, 05:17 PM

I will stick with 45 ACP, so I don't have to keep up on all the new bullet designs.

C.R.Sam · December 19, 2000, 05:29 PM

Shot placement.

**4V50 Gary** · December 19, 2000, 05:37 PM

C.R. Sam says it all.

Flattop · December 19, 2000, 06:32 PM

Shot placement is not as easy when the adrenalin is pumping and you find yourself in a running gun battle. Several month ago in Philadelphia PA. a BG did some BG things, got into a fist fight with some officers, stole a police car and some how wound up being shot 5 - 6 times by the police. That's 5 or 6 bullet wounds buy police service weapons. I don't know what type weapons the Philadelphia PD carry but it's probably in the 9mm/.38 caliber range. The BG walked out of the paddy wagon into the hospital handcuffed under his own power. I'm not going to argue shot placement, but I'll take the .45 thank you.

urban assault · December 19, 2000, 06:42 PM

Can you say Triton "quick-shok" .45 ACP? Thats a nasty round to be hit with.

michael

Greg Bell · December 19, 2000, 06:50 PM

YAWN!

Mike H · December 19, 2000, 06:53 PM

For the record, I recall seeing one of those police video clips where a guy tries to knife an officer during a roadside stop and search. The officer put a .45 ACP into his gut at near contact distance and the guy never missed a beat. Eventually the officer was unable to restrain him on the ground as he was being overpowered by the perp. The guy obviously needed telling that he had been shot with a .45 hollowpoint because there was no visible reaction.

.45 is about as effective as .40 and they are both slightly more effective than a good 9mm, and slightly more difficult to control for the average shooter. There's the trade off.

The secret with any caliber is not to hope for a John Wayne shot, just keep squeezing till they quit wheezing. There are no certainties unless your chosen handgun is chambered in .338 Winchester Magnum and has a 22 inch barrel.

Mike H

Slacker · December 19, 2000, 07:09 PM

Not EXACTLY the same thing, but somewhere I read:

Trespassers will be shot....
Survivors will be shot again.

"...just keep squeezing till they quit wheezing." :-) I gotta remember that one.

**Mike Irwin** · December 19, 2000, 10:23 PM

What was said about the Capitol Police's ammo?

If I'm not mistaken, at the time it was Federal Classic 115-gr. JHP.

For all the more effective a hollowpoint that is, it might as well be a 115-gr. round nose solid.

The stuff just does NOT expand.

US Park Police also carries this round.

No way in HELL would I ever carry it.

Doug 29 · December 20, 2000, 12:23 AM

Just remember, if you can't keep your cool and make good shot placement........repeat after me: "I'm gonna DIE!!!"

TheFederalistWeasel · December 20, 2000, 01:06 AM

It truly amazes me…

All the talk about how 9mm is just plain ole c**p and .45 is the way to go. I hear all the commotion about how many documented cases of 9mm failure to stop incidents there are but I rarely hear of a .45 failure to stop.

Is this because a statically insignificant number of departments carry a .45? The Texas Department of Public Safety tossed out all of theirs for .357SIG’s because the .45 could not go through auto glass.
The military carries the .45 SOCOM because it is suppressible, the round is already close to subsonic anyway so…

The .45 is very over-rated but carry what you will, I’ll trust my life to a clip full of 115gr. Corbons stuffed in an HK P7M8 complete with 4 inch barrel. 1350FPS thank you. Care to catch one?

TFW

jdthaddeus · December 20, 2000, 04:08 AM

Seems that they all don't work so well....or they do with perfect placement.

I am certified EMT and worked a bit in that medical field. I saw a guy take a single 9mm round through a car door into the chest and he was unconscious in a matter of seconds. I believe it was ball ammo. The guy was dead before the ambulance arrived.

I saw another guy that was a carjacker. He met an armed victim. He was shot by the driver about 7 times with a .45 at arms reach, all over his body. When the ambulance pulled up, the carjacker was sitting on the curb. No one could even tell who was shot. Finally he stood up to reveal several holes in him. He WALKED over to the ambulance and got a ride to the hospital, talking the whole way. He seemed somewhat upset at being shot, and gave a wince of pain every once in a while, but he never was "stopped", even 20 minutes after he was shot, he was still talking and mobile. Someone should have told him he was shot (several times) with a .45, because he did not seem to be impressed.

All the rounds seem to have success and failure.

BrokenArrow · December 20, 2000, 12:10 PM

Local sheriffs hit a guy seven (7) times (2 face, 2 hands, 3 COM) w the 165/40 Gold Dot from Glock 22s through auto glass and he did not stop. In other shootings by city cops w the 124/147 HS 9mm and Glocks through glass they were stopped just fine. Go figure.

Texas DPS thinks the 357 Mag/SIG was/is beter than the 230/45. CHP thinks the 180/40 is better than the 357 Mag. Does that make the 180/40 better than all three?

When ya figure it out, let me know?

Greg Bell · December 20, 2000, 03:31 PM

Perhaps you guys didn't hear me:

YAWN!

End of discussion.

**Mike Irwin** · December 20, 2000, 06:41 PM

Sorry we're boring you, Greg.

Maybe you can find more stimulating conversation on the Soccer Moms board.

I hear they're having a kick ass discussion on Plymouth Voyager vs. Ford Winstar minivans right now.

45King · December 20, 2000, 09:28 PM

Ain't nothin' hand held that's a reliable one-shot stopper. Closest thing to it is a 12 ga. slug dead center in the brain pan at 3 ft. max distance.

Greg Bell · December 20, 2000, 09:31 PM

Mike,

Actually I prefer the Astro. Don't diss the soccermom board!

OkieGentleman · December 21, 2000, 12:23 AM

I think I will go with RikWriter. I found my .45 load, I am going to shoot you 8 times with it and then beat hell out of you with the empty gun. Or if you are too big, I will shoot you 8 times then let you chase me around the nearest tree until you bleed out. Either way I win!

December 19, 2000, 06:42 PM	#7
urban assault Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2000 Location: About 30 miles from Portland, Oregon. Posts: 216	Can you say Triton "quick-shok" .45 ACP? Thats a nasty round to be hit with. michael __________________ "My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, Commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife... And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next!" - Gladiator "You can get further with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word." - Al Capone

December 20, 2000, 12:23 AM	#12
Doug 29 Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2000 Posts: 217	Shot placement Just remember, if you can't keep your cool and make good shot placement........repeat after me: "I'm gonna DIE!!!"

December 20, 2000, 04:08 AM	#14
jdthaddeus Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 1999 Location: Az Posts: 467	Seems that they all don't work so well....or they do with perfect placement. I am certified EMT and worked a bit in that medical field. I saw a guy take a single 9mm round through a car door into the chest and he was unconscious in a matter of seconds. I believe it was ball ammo. The guy was dead before the ambulance arrived. I saw another guy that was a carjacker. He met an armed victim. He was shot by the driver about 7 times with a .45 at arms reach, all over his body. When the ambulance pulled up, the carjacker was sitting on the curb. No one could even tell who was shot. Finally he stood up to reveal several holes in him. He WALKED over to the ambulance and got a ride to the hospital, talking the whole way. He seemed somewhat upset at being shot, and gave a wince of pain every once in a while, but he never was "stopped", even 20 minutes after he was shot, he was still talking and mobile. Someone should have told him he was shot (several times) with a .45, because he did not seem to be impressed. All the rounds seem to have success and failure. __________________ "No honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun." "I never meant for simple civilians to have my 20 or 30 round magazines or my folding stock." "I see nothing wrong with waiting periods." - Bill RUGER to Tom Brokaw on NBC News, while pushing for the 'high capacity' magazine ban

December 20, 2000, 12:10 PM	#15
BrokenArrow Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 1998 Posts: 966	Local sheriffs hit a guy seven (7) times (2 face, 2 hands, 3 COM) w the 165/40 Gold Dot from Glock 22s through auto glass and he did not stop. In other shootings by city cops w the 124/147 HS 9mm and Glocks through glass they were stopped just fine. Go figure. Texas DPS thinks the 357 Mag/SIG was/is beter than the 230/45. CHP thinks the 180/40 is better than the 357 Mag. Does that make the 180/40 better than all three? When ya figure it out, let me know? __________________ >>>>------>

December 20, 2000, 09:28 PM	#18
45King Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 1999 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 1,035	Ain't nothin' hand held that's a reliable one-shot stopper. Closest thing to it is a 12 ga. slug dead center in the brain pan at 3 ft. max distance. __________________ Shoot straight, stay safe, and have a blessed day. Regards, Richard Freedom is a consequence of the exercising of rights.

December 19, 2000, 05:04 PM	#1
45automan Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2000 Posts: 304	Hay guys this is not to flame the 9mm. I like it and own a few 9mm pistols. My Glock 19 is my cuurent favorite 9mm. Now that thats out of the way. I was reading Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcment magizine. They sited the Capitol building shooting a few years back. The one where the guy came in shooting a .38 revolver. Any way they say a Capitol police officer engaged the man with his S&W 5946 9mm pistol. They go on to say how the subject was struck several times with the 9mm and failed to stop and then pusued a woman through to another room. He was then met by another officer who he shot at point blank range. The officer was mortally wounded but shot the perp before he fell. So the .38 failed too. Mind you this is all a precourser to the article about how the Capitol PD switched to the .40 Glock 22. Now that would have made a world of diffrence right? It seems that every time the police upgrade their guns the gun rags find a failure with the old stuff. Jim Cirillo who was probably involved in more shoot outs than any LEO in morden history made due with .38 LRN at that. I'am just sick of the gun rag press is all. Sorry for the rant. 45automan

December 19, 2000, 05:12 PM	#2
MH Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2000 Posts: 177	Cirillo in his video definitely prefers high powered ammo. He cited cases where 38 round nose failed spectacularly. I am going to investigate fragmented ammo such as Corbon Beesafe or Magsafe as a partial answer to weak performance by hangun calibers. As a civilian at low risk, I carry 9 mm or 32. If I were an officer at high risk, I might prefer the 40 over the 9.

December 19, 2000, 05:17 PM	#3
RikWriter Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 1999 Posts: 2,106	I will stick with 45 ACP, so I don't have to keep up on all the new bullet designs.

December 19, 2000, 05:29 PM	#4
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,876	Shot placement.

December 19, 2000, 05:37 PM	#5
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: California Posts: 13,263	C.R. Sam says it all.

December 19, 2000, 06:32 PM	#6
Flattop Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 199	Shot placement is not as easy when the adrenalin is pumping and you find yourself in a running gun battle. Several month ago in Philadelphia PA. a BG did some BG things, got into a fist fight with some officers, stole a police car and some how wound up being shot 5 - 6 times by the police. That's 5 or 6 bullet wounds buy police service weapons. I don't know what type weapons the Philadelphia PD carry but it's probably in the 9mm/.38 caliber range. The BG walked out of the paddy wagon into the hospital handcuffed under his own power. I'm not going to argue shot placement, but I'll take the .45 thank you.

December 19, 2000, 06:50 PM	#8
Greg Bell Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 2,038	YAWN!

December 19, 2000, 06:53 PM	#9
Mike H Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 1999 Posts: 1,160	For the record, I recall seeing one of those police video clips where a guy tries to knife an officer during a roadside stop and search. The officer put a .45 ACP into his gut at near contact distance and the guy never missed a beat. Eventually the officer was unable to restrain him on the ground as he was being overpowered by the perp. The guy obviously needed telling that he had been shot with a .45 hollowpoint because there was no visible reaction. .45 is about as effective as .40 and they are both slightly more effective than a good 9mm, and slightly more difficult to control for the average shooter. There's the trade off. The secret with any caliber is not to hope for a John Wayne shot, just keep squeezing till they quit wheezing. There are no certainties unless your chosen handgun is chambered in .338 Winchester Magnum and has a 22 inch barrel. Mike H

December 19, 2000, 07:09 PM	#10
Slacker Member Join Date: November 28, 2000 Posts: 23	Not EXACTLY the same thing, but somewhere I read: Trespassers will be shot.... Survivors will be shot again. "...just keep squeezing till they quit wheezing." :-) I gotta remember that one.

December 19, 2000, 10:23 PM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 21,782	What was said about the Capitol Police's ammo? If I'm not mistaken, at the time it was Federal Classic 115-gr. JHP. For all the more effective a hollowpoint that is, it might as well be a 115-gr. round nose solid. The stuff just does NOT expand. US Park Police also carries this round. No way in HELL would I ever carry it.

December 20, 2000, 01:06 AM	#13
TheFederalistWeasel Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2000 Posts: 109	It truly amazes me… All the talk about how 9mm is just plain ole c**p and .45 is the way to go. I hear all the commotion about how many documented cases of 9mm failure to stop incidents there are but I rarely hear of a .45 failure to stop. Is this because a statically insignificant number of departments carry a .45? The Texas Department of Public Safety tossed out all of theirs for .357SIG’s because the .45 could not go through auto glass. The military carries the .45 SOCOM because it is suppressible, the round is already close to subsonic anyway so… The .45 is very over-rated but carry what you will, I’ll trust my life to a clip full of 115gr. Corbons stuffed in an HK P7M8 complete with 4 inch barrel. 1350FPS thank you. Care to catch one? TFW

December 20, 2000, 03:31 PM	#16
Greg Bell Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 2,038	Perhaps you guys didn't hear me: YAWN! End of discussion.

December 20, 2000, 06:41 PM	#17
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 21,782	Sorry we're boring you, Greg. Maybe you can find more stimulating conversation on the Soccer Moms board. I hear they're having a kick ass discussion on Plymouth Voyager vs. Ford Winstar minivans right now.

December 20, 2000, 09:31 PM	#19
Greg Bell Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 2,038	YOU SONOVA.... Mike, Actually I prefer the Astro. Don't diss the soccermom board!

December 21, 2000, 12:23 AM	#20
OkieGentleman Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 1999 Location: OKC Metro Posts: 432	I think I will go with RikWriter. I found my .45 load, I am going to shoot you 8 times with it and then beat hell out of you with the empty gun. Or if you are too big, I will shoot you 8 times then let you chase me around the nearest tree until you bleed out. Either way I win!