cold, wet, windy weather MAKES you fasten your coat

Hardin · January 1, 2001, 03:53 PM

so much then, for belt rig, eh? ditto hot weather and have to cover the pc with just a shirt, often a TUCKED in shirt. Jamie coffey came up with a carry-draw that I showed Hack, and it became known as the "Hackathorn Rip". i have worked with it extensively, and it is QUITE prone to snagging-fumbling, and is maybe 1/4 sec faster than a front pants pocket draw (starting hands at sides) at best. Not even worth all that effort and risk to learn! Not just so you can carry inferior loads like 230 gr jhps, anyway. Shoot some animals with the latter, and see if you are impressed by their perfomance. They might as well be swcs, only a hair better than ball, and dont pierce chance barriers as well as ball does, nor feed as reliably.

Dr45ACP · January 1, 2001, 05:26 PM

huh? does anyone know what this means?

MellowMikey · January 1, 2001, 05:38 PM

I think it means that the state mental hospital has internet access now.

Mikey

Hardin · January 1, 2001, 06:04 PM

i was one too, once upon a time. Still love the alloy compacts, just no longer wanna lug around a 1911. This is about practical access-carry of a truly effective gun and load. Nearly every 45 owner I know ALSO just HAPPENS to also have a pocket pc? WONDER why that is? Makes no sense to practice with a 1911, and then carry something so different as a 38 snub is. Better to dump the .45 and practice with a 2" M10 if the revolver is what you actually USE, true? Or carry a 380 mustang if like the 1911 format so much. I dislike both for their lack of power, but the .38 even more so for its lack of rapidfire control and its large bulge in a pants pocket

Alaska Roy · January 1, 2001, 06:21 PM

What would be your first choice for the perfect PC gun? Ammo? Thank You, Roy

DarkStar · January 1, 2001, 06:41 PM

Impressive, 74 posts since you registered on 30 December. Are you trying to top your 320 posts since 16 December at Frugal's? Same junk, new crowd. Exactly WHEN do you have time to shoot with all your posting? Me, I'm still trying to find your books...

Darryl

Hard Ball · January 1, 2001, 09:12 PM

If you have to button your coat due to the weather carry a good hammerless revolver in your coat pocket. It solves the problem neatly.

Correia · January 1, 2001, 09:24 PM

Its so dang cold where I am that I'm just used to picking up my coat when I draw. Anytime I practice it is usually so freaking cold that I'm wearing a coat anyway. I guess that I don't see the big deal.

Hardin · January 1, 2001, 10:25 PM

those times, why not all the time? PC gun and ammo? dunno what you are referring to? mean factory stuff? right now, spld loaded alloy compact .45 in belt pcs, 165 gr tritons. In pocket pcs, i'd say wait until Kahr offers mini 40 with polymer frame, then get 357 Sig barrel, check out RBCD ammo for same. Ballistics are right, but i dunno about the slug used. Fastened coat= 2 handed draw= slow and fumble prone,giving away 3/4 sec or more as vs being HIP with pocket pc

Oleg Volk · January 2, 2001, 01:03 AM

However, just for the benefit of the rest of us, could you try to sound a little less adversarial? We'd stray less from the issues at hand if your questions did not sound like unsubtle digs at other people's competence.

deanf · January 2, 2001, 01:41 AM

what do you mean by "pc"? Is that "politically incorrect"? Or is it some gun abbreviation I'm (we're) not familiar with.

denfoote · January 2, 2001, 01:56 AM

Mr Hardin,
After reading your posts, I have come to one of two conclusions:

1) You are the most knowledgeable, fastest shooting, most accurate, knock 'em dead with a stick, snap their necks in an instant with Kung Fu, or what ever it is you say you are a Black Belt in, SOB to ever hit this board. If just a fraction of this is true, then I commend you. You need to open an academy, and pass your vast experience on to the rest of us poor, un-enlightened, slower than hell, can't shoot worth-a-damn, peasents.

OR

2) You are a small vile Troll, who needs to be delt with in the ignoble way that trolls are usually delt with.
(Did anybody say Troll Hunt!!!!

)

BobR · January 2, 2001, 02:33 AM

I don't know about the rest of you, but, I vote for #2.

HKMark23 · January 2, 2001, 07:41 AM

#2

iso1 · January 2, 2001, 10:14 AM

Number two...

but to answer his question, when the weather is cold, and the wind starts blowing (as it often does, blowing the damn cold right down off the Sierra Nevadas and into my bones!), I usually switch to a vertical shoulder rig. I put a hooded, zip up sweat jacket on over it, and then my coat. I zip the jacket up a bit less than halfway, and then snap the coat closed....one quick snap, and I can draw without getting caught up on anything. And if I go indoors, I just take off the coat, and the jacket is perfectly normal since I seem to be the only person in Northern Nevada who likes the room temp to be above 60 degrees! Every place I go, they set their thermostats at about 64 degrees, which to me is about the same as freezing!

Onslaught · January 2, 2001, 11:00 AM

#3) 14 years old, parents are away, Grandparents are babysitting, and don't know to monitor what sites junior is hitting on the 'net.

(The above comment was submitted SOLELY for fun, and not intended to ACTUALLY offend anyone)

**Art Eatman** · January 2, 2001, 11:32 AM

Hardin raises some good points, although some of the side issues seem off-thread.

So, taking a Valium and thinking about coats and such: iso1 has thought about it and has a workable solution.

I never wear a coat; I wear layers so that I can accomodate cover with the day's temperature variations. It's easy enough to find jackets and sweaters which allow concealed carry via an inside-the-belt holster at the right kidney--not all that much different from the early-days IPSC outside-location.

If you carry a non-printing handgun inside a coat or jacket pocket, why draw? If you need it all that bad, "Time is of the essence!" and they sell new coats all over town!

, Art

BB · January 2, 2001, 12:08 PM

So what you are saying is you should only have one gun, and that gun should be the one you carry concealed? I don't agree. I have service pistols, hunting pistols AND carry pistols. A carry pistol is usually the LAST pistol I want to shoot at the range, because it is hard to get my hand around and snaps like a SOB.

I think you are putting WAY to much emphasis on trying to find a "wonder bullet" to carry concealed. There are other factors, such as the legal ramifications of using a "hot-rod" pistol in a defensive situation, cost and availibility of such a weapon; and what you need in a CCW as opposed to what you want or think you need.

gunpowder · January 2, 2001, 12:18 PM

Seems like a Pocket mouse is better than nothing but in many situations you will probably have time to unzip you coat and reach for your gun.

If not you can always distract the bad guy by, say- throwing your packages, keys, wallet, etc. in the other direction while you move away and drawl. of course if you are free to "flee" you may be setting up yourself to do battle in court if you then remain and defend your property depending on the local laws.

Cowgunner · January 2, 2001, 12:46 PM

i *think* hardin is trying to say that a pocket gun is a good choice for cool weather[have a gun in the coat pocket] which i would agree with him. anyways i vote 3

MellowMikey · January 2, 2001, 12:54 PM

#2, in more ways than one

Deaf Smith · January 2, 2001, 01:28 PM

Hi Hardin,

Long time no see. They guys at shooters posted you were over here raising heck. Got to admit, it does sometimes get to be a bore without you around to kick.

To one and all, Hardin use to post on shooters.com before hie was kicked off. If you notice his soothing style, his suave postings, tactful approach, well, that is what got him kicked off shooters.com (among other things that I think Hardin and I know).

Nice to see you got another internet connection.

Sincerely,

The notorious (and glorious) Deaf Smith

czman · January 2, 2001, 04:38 PM

Deaf, as always you cut right to the heart of the matter

riddleofsteel · January 2, 2001, 09:09 PM

i admit that i fell into the trap of reading these bozo posts and arguing. i now vote that we read this stuff if we are curious otherwise if we ignore guff and hot air maybe it will go away.

as for the question? i guess that it is another good arguement for two guns huh? one on e the belt under the coat. one in the pocket.

TAAADAA

M-2 · January 3, 2001, 03:07 PM

Hey Hardy! Have you been good or baaaaaaaaaaad? I think a guy should do alot of practice with his carry gun. The problem I have with pocket carry is you always have to be standing and have your hand in your pocket. What about when your sitting, eating and driving a motorcycle or bike? Or if someone grabs you and you just cant get in your pocket but you can get to your belt? What about a gang? Is that little pistol going to be good enough or have enough bullets? BTW, animals and people are different and 45acp HP's are just fine.

January 1, 2001, 06:04 PM	#4
Hardin Member Join Date: December 30, 2000 Posts: 98	probably is greek to a diehard 45 guy i was one too, once upon a time. Still love the alloy compacts, just no longer wanna lug around a 1911. This is about practical access-carry of a truly effective gun and load. Nearly every 45 owner I know ALSO just HAPPENS to also have a pocket pc? WONDER why that is? Makes no sense to practice with a 1911, and then carry something so different as a 38 snub is. Better to dump the .45 and practice with a 2" M10 if the revolver is what you actually USE, true? Or carry a 380 mustang if like the 1911 format so much. I dislike both for their lack of power, but the .38 even more so for its lack of rapidfire control and its large bulge in a pants pocket

January 1, 2001, 06:21 PM	#5
Alaska Roy Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 281	Waiting Patiently For Mr. Hardins- What would be your first choice for the perfect PC gun? Ammo? Thank You, Roy

January 1, 2001, 06:41 PM	#6
DarkStar Senior Member Join Date: September 21, 2000 Location: Liberal Michigan... For Now... Posts: 247	Sheesh, GunKid... Impressive, 74 posts since you registered on 30 December. Are you trying to top your 320 posts since 16 December at Frugal's? Same junk, new crowd. Exactly WHEN do you have time to shoot with all your posting? Me, I'm still trying to find your books... Darryl

January 1, 2001, 10:25 PM	#9
Hardin Member Join Date: December 30, 2000 Posts: 98	right and if pocket pc is good enough for those times, why not all the time? PC gun and ammo? dunno what you are referring to? mean factory stuff? right now, spld loaded alloy compact .45 in belt pcs, 165 gr tritons. In pocket pcs, i'd say wait until Kahr offers mini 40 with polymer frame, then get 357 Sig barrel, check out RBCD ammo for same. Ballistics are right, but i dunno about the slug used. Fastened coat= 2 handed draw= slow and fumble prone,giving away 3/4 sec or more as vs being HIP with pocket pc

January 2, 2001, 01:03 AM	#10
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,031	Hardin, you bring up very important issues However, just for the benefit of the rest of us, could you try to sound a little less adversarial? We'd stray less from the issues at hand if your questions did not sound like unsubtle digs at other people's competence.

January 1, 2001, 03:53 PM	#1
Hardin Member Join Date: December 30, 2000 Posts: 98	so much then, for belt rig, eh? ditto hot weather and have to cover the pc with just a shirt, often a TUCKED in shirt. Jamie coffey came up with a carry-draw that I showed Hack, and it became known as the "Hackathorn Rip". i have worked with it extensively, and it is QUITE prone to snagging-fumbling, and is maybe 1/4 sec faster than a front pants pocket draw (starting hands at sides) at best. Not even worth all that effort and risk to learn! Not just so you can carry inferior loads like 230 gr jhps, anyway. Shoot some animals with the latter, and see if you are impressed by their perfomance. They might as well be swcs, only a hair better than ball, and dont pierce chance barriers as well as ball does, nor feed as reliably.

January 1, 2001, 05:26 PM	#2
Dr45ACP Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2000 Posts: 281	huh? does anyone know what this means?

January 1, 2001, 05:38 PM	#3
MellowMikey Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2000 Location: Arizona Territory Posts: 271	I think it means that the state mental hospital has internet access now. Mikey

January 1, 2001, 09:12 PM	#7
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,886	If you have to button your coat due to the weather carry a good hammerless revolver in your coat pocket. It solves the problem neatly.

January 1, 2001, 09:24 PM	#8
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,742	Its so dang cold where I am that I'm just used to picking up my coat when I draw. Anytime I practice it is usually so freaking cold that I'm wearing a coat anyway. I guess that I don't see the big deal.

January 2, 2001, 01:41 AM	#11
deanf Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 1999 Location: N47º 12’ x W122º 10' Posts: 1,609	what do you mean by "pc"? Is that "politically incorrect"? Or is it some gun abbreviation I'm (we're) not familiar with. __________________ I'm a constitutional fetishist. Airplane Pictures

January 2, 2001, 01:56 AM	#12
denfoote Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 1999 Location: Buckeye Arizona Posts: 5,363	Mr Hardin, After reading your posts, I have come to one of two conclusions: 1) You are the most knowledgeable, fastest shooting, most accurate, knock 'em dead with a stick, snap their necks in an instant with Kung Fu, or what ever it is you say you are a Black Belt in, SOB to ever hit this board. If just a fraction of this is true, then I commend you. You need to open an academy, and pass your vast experience on to the rest of us poor, un-enlightened, slower than hell, can't shoot worth-a-damn, peasents. OR 2) You are a small vile Troll, who needs to be delt with in the ignoble way that trolls are usually delt with. (Did anybody say Troll Hunt!!!! ) __________________ Ich bin kein Nationalsozialist!!!!!! Ich bin Republikaner!!!!!!!! Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset. Arizona: Flush the Johns!!!

January 2, 2001, 02:33 AM	#13
BobR Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2000 Location: The Dry Side of WA Posts: 536	I don't know about the rest of you, but, I vote for #2. __________________ Sarcasm.....just one more service I offer.

January 2, 2001, 07:41 AM	#14
HKMark23 Member Join Date: January 4, 2000 Posts: 54	#2

January 2, 2001, 10:14 AM	#15
iso1 Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2000 Location: Reno, Nevada Posts: 581	Number two... but to answer his question, when the weather is cold, and the wind starts blowing (as it often does, blowing the damn cold right down off the Sierra Nevadas and into my bones!), I usually switch to a vertical shoulder rig. I put a hooded, zip up sweat jacket on over it, and then my coat. I zip the jacket up a bit less than halfway, and then snap the coat closed....one quick snap, and I can draw without getting caught up on anything. And if I go indoors, I just take off the coat, and the jacket is perfectly normal since I seem to be the only person in Northern Nevada who likes the room temp to be above 60 degrees! Every place I go, they set their thermostats at about 64 degrees, which to me is about the same as freezing!

January 2, 2001, 11:00 AM	#16
Onslaught Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 1999 Location: GA Posts: 1,752	You forgot choice #3... #3) 14 years old, parents are away, Grandparents are babysitting, and don't know to monitor what sites junior is hitting on the 'net. (The above comment was submitted SOLELY for fun, and not intended to ACTUALLY offend anyone)

January 2, 2001, 11:32 AM	#17
Art Eatman Staff Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX, USA Posts: 16,803	Hardin raises some good points, although some of the side issues seem off-thread. So, taking a Valium and thinking about coats and such: iso1 has thought about it and has a workable solution. I never wear a coat; I wear layers so that I can accomodate cover with the day's temperature variations. It's easy enough to find jackets and sweaters which allow concealed carry via an inside-the-belt holster at the right kidney--not all that much different from the early-days IPSC outside-location. If you carry a non-printing handgun inside a coat or jacket pocket, why draw? If you need it all that bad, "Time is of the essence!" and they sell new coats all over town! , Art

January 2, 2001, 12:08 PM	#18
BB Senior Member Join Date: August 17, 1999 Posts: 812	So what you are saying is you should only have one gun, and that gun should be the one you carry concealed? I don't agree. I have service pistols, hunting pistols AND carry pistols. A carry pistol is usually the LAST pistol I want to shoot at the range, because it is hard to get my hand around and snaps like a SOB. I think you are putting WAY to much emphasis on trying to find a "wonder bullet" to carry concealed. There are other factors, such as the legal ramifications of using a "hot-rod" pistol in a defensive situation, cost and availibility of such a weapon; and what you need in a CCW as opposed to what you want or think you need.

January 2, 2001, 12:18 PM	#19
gunpowder Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Location: Indiana Posts: 209	Seems like a Pocket mouse is better than nothing but in many situations you will probably have time to unzip you coat and reach for your gun. If not you can always distract the bad guy by, say- throwing your packages, keys, wallet, etc. in the other direction while you move away and drawl. of course if you are free to "flee" you may be setting up yourself to do battle in court if you then remain and defend your property depending on the local laws. __________________ NRA LIFE MEMBER, why aren't you? The United States is not a Democracy, it is a Rep. Republic.

January 2, 2001, 12:46 PM	#20
Cowgunner Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2000 Posts: 130	i think hardin is trying to say that a pocket gun is a good choice for cool weather[have a gun in the coat pocket] which i would agree with him. anyways i vote 3 __________________ You can have my gun after I shoot you.

January 2, 2001, 12:54 PM	#21
MellowMikey Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2000 Location: Arizona Territory Posts: 271	#2, in more ways than one

January 2, 2001, 01:28 PM	#22
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Posts: 1,506	Hi Hardin, Long time no see. They guys at shooters posted you were over here raising heck. Got to admit, it does sometimes get to be a bore without you around to kick. To one and all, Hardin use to post on shooters.com before hie was kicked off. If you notice his soothing style, his suave postings, tactful approach, well, that is what got him kicked off shooters.com (among other things that I think Hardin and I know). Nice to see you got another internet connection. Sincerely, The notorious (and glorious) Deaf Smith

January 2, 2001, 04:38 PM	#23
czman Member Join Date: January 2, 2001 Posts: 39	Deaf, as always you cut right to the heart of the matter __________________ "Accuracy as well as beauty is in the EYE of the beholder."

January 2, 2001, 09:09 PM	#24
riddleofsteel Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2000 Location: above ground Posts: 1,469	#4 i admit that i fell into the trap of reading these bozo posts and arguing. i now vote that we read this stuff if we are curious otherwise if we ignore guff and hot air maybe it will go away. as for the question? i guess that it is another good arguement for two guns huh? one on e the belt under the coat. one in the pocket. TAAADAA __________________ For him there was always the discipline of steel. Pulpa est valeo

January 3, 2001, 03:07 PM	#25
M-2 Member Join Date: November 18, 2000 Posts: 27	Hey Hardy! Have you been good or baaaaaaaaaaad? I think a guy should do alot of practice with his carry gun. The problem I have with pocket carry is you always have to be standing and have your hand in your pocket. What about when your sitting, eating and driving a motorcycle or bike? Or if someone grabs you and you just cant get in your pocket but you can get to your belt? What about a gang? Is that little pistol going to be good enough or have enough bullets? BTW, animals and people are different and 45acp HP's are just fine.