tokarev vs. 1911

[twin Sigs]

which one is better?

[beemerb]

For what??
Toks have no balance and the grip angle is weird.

[Tamara]

Tokarev trigger is no gem either, and the microscopic safety is easier to wipe off accidentally in the holster than it is to operate intentionally with your thumb.

Which is better? One owns IPSC and has its own class in IDPA, is issued to units ranging from Marine Force Recon to the FBI's HRT and LAPD SWAT, and is still one of the most prolific CCW carry guns among knowledgable shooters almost one hundred years after John M. Browning submitted the first prototypes to the U.S. Army for testing. The other hasn't been issued to a military or police force that would fare well against a troop of irate Cub Scouts since the 1950's. I dunno; you tell me which one is better.

I'm beginning to grok the fact that you don't dig 1911's, here.

(Since both the Tokarev and M1911 are semiauto's, however, I'm going to move this thread to "Handguns: The Semiauto Forum".)


[Edited by Tamara on 04-21-2001 at 09:31 PM]

[444]

I am glad this came up. I have been trying to decide which weapon to use for my CCW qualification. The Tokarev, my Les Baer Custom Carry, or a GE Mini-Gun cut down/ converted to .25 ACP and powered by a cell phone battery. We are allowed two guns on the CCW and of course the other one is a Davis derringer in .22 Short. I am sure that as long as I live, nothing will cause me to remove that one.

[Mike Irwin]

Well, design engineering wise the Tok probably has a bit on the 1911.

But that's about it.

Remember, the "safety" mechanism on the Tokarev was added as an afterthought. They originally weren't designed with ANY safety mechanism other than the half-cock notch, and that is there ONLY to keep the gun from going full auto if the sear breaks.

I've also not seen a Tok that can be carried cocked & locked, meaning that you would have to carry with an empty chamber unless you really wanted to take a chance at putting a round into your thigh.

Caliber-wise the .45 has it ALL OVER the 7.62x25.

[bullfrog99]

Better round? The Tokarev can defeat threat level III bullet proof vests in simple 'ball' form, the 45 can't even defeat an old G.I. helmet. While I don't believe the Tokarev makes a better defensive round, you must take into consideration that they were designed to do two different things. The 45 is like a 12 ga, short effective range, but a hellofalotta power, the Tokarev will shoot out past 100 yards with reasonable accuracy (most of them that is) and have a hellofalotta penetration, in fact I have heard claims of Tokarev rounds penetrating stem to stern large brown bears (with ice pick sized wound channels, so I wouldn't recommend using one for grizzly hunting). As for the guns, The Tokarev is lighter and thinner than a 1911, and I am sure at least as reliable. The bottle necked cartridge is practically flawless (if you don't believe me, pick up some fired Tokarev shells, and put them unsized into your magazine, they will cycle thru the gun even though they have no bullet in the, talk about wide mouthed hollow points, you'll probably never find a forty five that feeds like that without a custom throating job) the trigger will smooth out to pretty darn good if you shoot it often enough. As for balance and grip angle, that is completely subjective, I rather like the feel of the Tokarev. It’s shorter grip frame doesn't print so much, and if you buy a norinco (though most people hate them for some odd reason), all you have to do is deepen the dimples with a drill press (or careful hand drilling) to make the safety function properly) I can carry cocked and locked and it has never slopped off. As for the purpose of carrying cocked and locked with a round in the chamber, I don't believe their is one, I have practiced hundreds of times to leave the gun cocked, safety off, but no round in the chamber pull the gun out of it's holster, slam the gun so that big rear sight clips onto the top of your shorts, or belt, or even your pants leg, and cycle a round into the chamber when you get good at it, it will be no slower than if you just pulled and pointed it as my small of the back holster is in a natural motion from pulling it to swinging it around your body clipping the rear sight and pushing outward the slid will cycle a fresh round and you are set to go. If you drop the mag you can practice dry at home and not have to worry about having a negligent discharge (start off this way please) this doesn’t even require a safety. Lets consider the unfortunate possibility, that you cannot cycle the slide, or miss catching the sight under stress, Most situations that call for using a CCW wouldn't justify pulling and shooting (at least not unless you want to spend a good time in jail), you should give challenge and attempt to diffuse the situation without further violence, in these cases, if you get the other guy off guard, then you should have plenty of time to cycle that slide, in addition to the fact, you know the chambers empty, but all the other guy sees is a pistol with the hammer back pointing at him, I’ll bet you a barrel of nickels, he's going to quickly have a life affirmation and decide maybe a life of crime isn't such a good idea anyways.


Defensive load for the tt-33 Tokarev

A 310-311 (can't remember which) diameter Horniday 60 grain xtp hollow point with a hot load of fast powder of your choice for a velocity of around 1750 fps (or put a stronger recoil spring into it and approach 1900fps this will evaporate a 10 lb watermelon, and hit the backstop behind it with enough energy to bury 3 inches), I can only imagine the wound channel on that puppy.

Don’t forget that the gun is also strong enough for 38 super conversions, if you absolutely need to have a bigger bullet.

As for 45's I’ll have my first in a month or so, (past my 45 colt's that is) so maybe I’ll be singing a different tune, but I doubt it. The major selling point for me was its toughness. My brain dead friend went hunting one year and brought along a military Russian Tokarev with him. It was the last day of the season, and he actually got a deer. He took out the pistol to finish the deer off, and set it on the ground before he started with the pictures and gutting and so forth. Somewhere in the process, the gun must have gotten kicked under some leaves, because after he was done he couldn't find it, it was getting dark so he decided to look for it the next day. He didn't find it then either. Too bad so sad for him right. Two seasons after that one, he was digging a hole to bury a banana peel out by his stand, and low and behold, he found his gun, a big ball of rust. He took it home, had to use a hammer, heat, and penetrating oil to even get the thing open. He took it apart, used a file to clean off the bigger hunks of rust, gave it an oil bath and put a fresh mag of bullets in it, I’ll be damned if it didn't go off every round then and has never missed one since. Good gun is all I have to say (I guess I should have said that first, and saved you guys the trouble) oh well one vote for the Tokarev!!!

[IZZY]

Soon as I saw the post I thought the same thing as Bullfrog99 wrote.( skipping a lot of details of course).

The Tokarev is superior for a military arm, the .45 for a civilian arm. We should all have both ( or their equvilants...I preffer a .45 Colr Redhawk to a 1911, and unjacketed 255 super-x bullets to any A.C.P. round..)

[Tamara]

...I like the Tokarev (I like Russian weapons design philosophy), and it's a fascinating gun. But I've got to stand pat on my insistance that one of these guns is an interesting and rugged pistol that is more than accurate for its intended role as a sidearm for conscript armies fighting in hostile weather and terrain, and the other is a combat handgunning legend that is going strong a century after it was first sketched on paper.

As for the purpose of carrying cocked and locked with a round in the chamber, I don't believe their is one,

That's a doctrinal thing; there're folks who believe it's pointless and folks who believe there's no other way to tote a 1911. It's hard to argue with its speed into action in trained hands, however.

. The 45 is like a 12 ga, short effective range, but a hellofalotta power, the Tokarev will shoot out past 100 yards with reasonable accuracy (most of them that is) and have a hellofalotta penetration,

Of course, that brings up the interesting point of just what a pistol is for on the battlefield. I'd think long guns are for the hundred yard stuff, while a pistol would be to knock down a guy who just jumped into your foxhole when your MG broke or ran dry, and to knock him down now as he's obviously not there for tea and scones.
As an interesting aside, many Russian accounts of The Great Patriotic War talk about what a prize a captured P-38 or MP-40 was, since the Russians envied the greater "knockdown" power of the German's 9mm Parabellum, while German memoirs refer to their old salts valuing captured TT-33's and PPSh's because everyone envied the greater penetration of the 7.62x25.

The grass is always greener...

[IZZY]

Having both a p-38 and T-33 on your belt for battle sounds about ideal. Oh a Rifle would be nice too

[Mike Irwin]

Essentially I asseumed that the person was questioning which was better for CCW, which is where my post was coming from.

I don't agree, however, that the Tok round is the better round in any way, shape, or form.

The .45 is perfectly accurate out to 100 yards and farther. No, it doesn't have as flat a trajectory, but in the hands of someone who knows what he/she is doing, that becomes much less of a consideration.

The 100-yd. military handgun is really stretching the situation, though. By definition the handgun is a close range self-defensive weapon. If you're having to shoot it at targets 100 yards away, you're in bigger trouble than you can imagine.

At close range is where the superiority of the .45 comes into play. How many targets do you expect to encounter who are going to be armored?

The comment on the "ice pick hole" says volumns. With hardball rounds (hollowpoint rounds for the 7.62 are kind of hard to find, even now), you're depending on the physical size of the bullet to do all of the wounding. In that sense, the larger the bullet, the larger the wound channel, the greater the trauma to the target, the more rapidly the target is incapacitated.

I also disagree about the "custom throating job." More and more 1911s are coming from the factory these days with barrels set up for feeding hollowpoints. My MilSpec 1911 will feed Remington Golden Sabre 230-gr. HPs without a hitch.

Essentially, though, what we have here today is an apples vs. oranges. Development on the Tokarev design stopped in 1945, while development on the 1911 design has continued to today.

I'll be sure, though, to choose the Tokarev for the next time that I'm attacked by a herd of 10-lb. watermelons.

[twin Sigs]

surprised to see some tokarev fans. I see the advantage of having a handgun that can shoot from a great distance. If a gun can accomplish both long range and short range shooting, why settle for a gun that can only do one. I suppose the tokarev could have problems with over penetration...

[444]

I am sorry for the flippant remark I made early in this thread. I assumed that this was supposed to be a joke. Let me start off by being honest. I don't own a Tokarov and never fired a Tokarov. However I can make a few observations based on simple logic. The 1911 is the handgun by which all others are judged. The title of your thread illistrates this point. The Tokorov is more of a curiosity than anything else. If it was comparable to the 1911 it would be in widespread use by police, military, serious competitive shooters etc.; but it is not. Over the last year or so I have talked to several people about the Tokarov, and the main thing they all bring up is the high velocity of the round. bullfrog99 states in his post that the Tokarov will fire a 60 grain bullet at 1750 fps. While that is fairly high for a handgun, it is nothing spectacular. You can shoot a 110 grain bullet (twice the weight of the 60 grain Tokarov bullet) at over 1900 fps out of a .357. A .44 Mag can shoot a 180 grain bullet (three times the weight of the Tokarov bullet) at 1760 fps. This is taking nothing away from the Tokarov, but let's just keep things in perspective. bullfrog99 also sts that a Tokarov will defeat a Threat level III vest. Not according to Second Chance's web page. According to the Second Chance Body Armor web page, their threat level II vest will stop a 7.62 x 25 85 grain FMJ. As far as penetrating a brown bear from front to back; Please. I would be happy if I could get that kind of penetration from a .375 H&H let alone a Tokarov. If this cartridge was flawless, I would imagine that it would be offered by many of the large manufacturers of handguns today, but again, it isn't. I am sure the Tokarov is well worth owning, and I am sure it provides a lot of fun to it's owners, but let's not try to make it into something that it is not. Again, I am not taking anything away from the Tokarov, but some of this stuff is going a bit too far.

[Edited by 444 on 04-22-2001 at 12:46 PM]

[IZZY]

"Second Chance" level II vest can stop a 7.62X 25 round? I doubt it! Maybe they refer to an American manufacured round or a Luger round, both are conciderably down-loaded from the Checz ammo.

If you want pleasant to shoot (@1500 fp.s.) and cheap penitrating ammo try Norinco (Chineise). The last time I used it I was kicked off the Range! Seemes I was denting/ danmmaging the hardened steel the backstop...pig steel bullets! I did not even realize this till the range master took a magnet and suspended a cartridege by the bullet! ( I shot only seventy bullets, but I got my money back...so it was a free range time and a lesson! )

The Russians had even better ammo with impregnated drill rod!...stuff I doubt anything short of a level IV would stop withing fifty yards.


Moral of the story...dont trust advertisments!

[444]

http://www.secondchance.com/informat...ppingpower.htm

[.357SIG]

7.62X25 85gr Tokorev VSP FMJ:
24" bbl 1250 fps (381 m/sec)

That's pretty damn slow out of a 24" barrel, don't you think? I'm surprised a IIA doesn't stop it.

[444]

Of course just in case I am missing something here, I just got on the phone and bought a CZ-52 from a guy I was discussing them with the other day.

[bullfrog99]

first of all, i don't feel i should have to defend any of my comments i wrote. If you don't beleive me, look it up.

quotes from mike irwin
"(hollowpoint rounds for the 7.62 are kind of hard to find, even now)"

Mike,I found them in the current issure of midway usa catalog, $10.49 for 100, they even have an 85 grain weight now.

"My MilSpec 1911 will feed Remington Golden Sabre 230-gr. HPs without a hitch"

try a few fired cases, and you'll see what i'm talking about

"I'll be sure, though, to choose the Tokarev for the next time that I'm attacked by a herd of 10-lb. watermelons"

If i didn't know better i'de think that was in insult.


Quotes from 444
"The 1911 is the handgun by which all others are judged"

the 1911 is the handgun by which the tokarev is based, rather it's simplified(meaning more reliable)but less refined,(meaning no safty, and no fancy trigger pulls)

"If it was comparable to the 1911 it would be in widespread use by police, military, serious competitive shooters etc.; but it is not"

the us military dropped the 1911 in '85, the only thing keeping it alive is the american public, the tokarev is russian, and last i heard their public wasn't allowed to play with things that go boom. as for "serious competitive shooting" I dare you to take a tricked out race gun into combat. as for police, the american police have this thing about liability, something about bullets that will always pass thru the target would probably scare them. besides, the only automatics they seem to be interested in are the "wonder nines" and now the "wonder 40's"(btw in japan where the cops have carried the tokarev in the past they use special tokarev rated body armor, because standard stuff that will stop the aformentioned "110 grain bullet (twice the weight of the 60 grain Tokarov bullet) at over 1900 fps out of a .357((btw with what a 10" barrel?))." will NOT stop the tokarev round.)

"As far as penetrating a brown bear from front to back; Please. I would be happy if I could get that kind of penetration from a .375 H&H let alone a Tokarov"

Look it up, as for the 375 part, i don't think that even requires a response.

"If this cartridge was flawless, I would imagine that it would be offered by many of the large manufacturers of handguns today"

americans don't like metric rounds. How many rifles are chambered in 7.62x39, and how many variations of the ammo are loaded by how many american companys? 2 by winchester and 2 by remington. how many variations are there of the .308 winchester, get my point. Heck the only metric rounds that made it were the 7mm's and half the time they are called .284 anyways. The ammo manufacturers got around this, ever heard of a 357 sig?--- 400 cor-bon--- 440 cor-bon magnum---perhaps 353 casull? bottle necked rounds feed better, that's why your 375 has a bottle neck and not a straight taper, it was the first african round designed to be shot from a bolt action, which needed absolute reliability of loading, again look it up.

I'm sorry if this seems snappy, but i don't like to be treated like i'm an idiot,when the other guy doesn't even take the time to look up something before 'jumpin on the soap box'. thank you .357SIG and IZZY, for backing me up before i got a chance to respond.

444 When you get your CZ-52, and actually give it a workout, maybe you'll see the light.

[Nightcrawler]

The Tokarev Cartridge will NOT penetrate Level III armor. Level III requires use of a ballistic steel plate; It will stop 5.56mm.

.45ACP Ball ammo will penetrate a GI helmet. I did such a test once with my 4" 1911 and a helmet from the surplus store. Not only did it make a huge entry hole (it cracked the metal, too, from about 15 feet away) it made a big outward dent on the far side. Of course, .357 magnum from a 16" barrel didn't even go clean through from that distance.

Now, 7.62x25mm Tok is a good cartridge, IMHO, and I'd rather have it than 9x19mm. However, the Tokarev design is BASED on the 1911. I believe there was an improvement in the magazine well design, or something like that, but other than that, it's more or less a copy. It's a good pistol, though, if an obsolete one.

7.62x25mm is still in use in Russia. Izhmash chambers their Bizon-2 submachine gun for that cartridge, as well as 9x19mm, 9x18mm, and .380.

[444]

Bullfrog, I am sorry you got upset about this. Obviously I did look up some of my information before I posted. I checked on the Threat Level III question and posted the link. I looked up a few other loads in other calibers. The rest, I don't know where to look up. I am not sure how to find out if a Tokarev will fully penetrate a brown bear, however a friend of mine shot a grizzly bear standing broadside with a .338 and did not get complete penetration with either of the two shots he took. I also don't know exactly where to find someone who shot a Threat Level III vest with one either. I do know that knives or icepicks will penetrate a vest, so I am not totally opposed to the idea. If you have some reliable sources, I will be happy to read them and reevaluate my position. The .357 load I listed was chronoed from my 6 1/2" Blackhawk. You list several bottle necked pistol cartridges all of which I have certainly heard of, however none have found widespread use. I know the .357 Sig is offered in a production gun, I am not sure about the others. Again, I honestly believe that if the design of the pistol or cartridge was remarkable they would be used as a basis for military, police, and competition guns. Competition shooters use the 1911 as the basis for thier competition race guns. They demand total reliability and get it; if there was a better platform, they would be using it for their sport, not combat. Americans do use metric calibers that have proven themselves; 9mm, 10mm, 6mm, 7mm etc. I in no way am trying to put you down and I am not trying to be a jerk. I am just trying to have a civilized discussion of the topic. If you were offended, I sincerely apologize and I hope we can continue this discussion. I am interested in learning all I can about a subject which I am obviously ingnorant.

[Edited by 444 on 04-22-2001 at 08:19 PM]

[Mike P. Wagner]

"Competition shooters use the 1911 as the basis for thier competition race guns. They demand total reliability and get it; if there was a better platform, they would be using it for their sport, not "

I have a CZ-52, and I've been poking around. IPDA and IPSC have a minimum 9mm caliber requirement. I think one of them allows a smaller caliber for a "backup" gun. There's no way a CZ-52 fits that category.

I don't understand the limitation on caliber, but there's not good reason that I can think of that there are four downs in football instead of five or three. It's just a part of the sport.

I usually avoid the subjects here that have two calibers or brands and a " vs. " between them. But I will toss in 2 cents and say that I got a CZ-52 last month in NRA Excellent condition for $165 (plus $20 for FFL transfer). It's a cool single action pistol that makes a satisfying blast. I don't think I would have gotten much of a 1911 for that price! The 7.62x25 is a fun round to shoot!

I suspect that both most 1911s and the CZ-52 are capable of more accuracy than I am.

I don't now anything about body armor, but the quoted 1250 fps seems awfully slow. I don't use the corrosive military surplus, but I think that the modern production Sellier and Belt chrono's a good deal faster than 1250 fps.

This has been an interesting and informative thread (for me).

Mike P. Wagner

[444]

I have been researching this all day and 1200 fps seems to be a minimum load in a pistol, let alone out of a 24" barrel.

[Mike Irwin]

Bullfrog, I'm not asking you to defend anything, it's not an attack on you. It's a discussion, and we're discussing opinions.

But, my apologies. We're making basic assumptions about the other's postions and getting crossed over...

OK. I don't handload the ammo that I use for defensive purposes. That's where I was coming from. I don't think it's a good practice, but that's just me.

Given that criteria, I've yet to see a steady supply of 7.62 loaded HP defensive ammo on the shelves at gunstores or at the gunshows I frequent.

TONS of surplus FMJ, yes. I've considered getting a CZ52 just to jump on the cheap surplus ammo.

As for chambering fired cases, just what the does that prove about the gun's ability to function with loaded ammo? Not much, really. But, to play along, I tried this with my MilSpec -- 4 out of 6 the first go round, 3 out of 6 the next.

"Americans don't like metric rounds."

Well, the 9x19 is certainly popular enough. Guns chambered for it have been outselling those chambered for .45 since the late 1970s. More 7.62x39 rifles have been sold in the United States in the last 15 years than probably all other calibers combined. The 9mm Makarov has an enormous following, as well.

The main reason the US manufacturers haven't jumped on the 7.62x39 and 9mm Mak bandwagon is due to economics. With the market flooded with cheap SKSs, AKs, and Maks, it's simply not cost effective to drop a $400 gun on the market to compete agaist them. Ruger found that out with the Ranch Rifle chambered in 7.62. Its sales have been sluggish, while sales of other firearms chambered in 7.62 have been enormous.

[radom]

I prefer the 96 mauser in 7.62x25 myself. But the Tok has that Russian "quality by quanity" idea. I would would take any good 9mm over a T-33 anyday of the week do to the Tok being a easy to make at low cost before other considerations type of gun. A good short range in the face gun but dont expect to ring gongs at 300yds with it. Or cut the X-ring at 25 meters.

[RON in PA]

The Tokarev has some interesting design features, mostly from a production point-of-view. It's enblock hammer-sear mechanism is ingenious. But for some reason the Soviets quickly replaced it after the war with the Makarov. One story is that they didn't like the magazine release. Don't forget the 1911 and Tokarev have different purposes, the 1911(a cavalry weapon)to shoot horses and the TT to shot "enemies of the state" in the back of the head.

[ddt4free]

7.63x25mm Mauser is not the same as 7.62x25mm. Although they will usually fit the same chamber!!!!!!!!!

The 7.63 Mauser is a hotter round and the 7.62 Tokorev was not designed to handle the chamber pressures of the Mauser round.

A CZ-52 can handle both though. I have Heard alot more urban legend about the Mauser defeating body armor than I have about the 7.62. It seems to be washing over fom one to the other, and my suspicion is, that many do not know the difference.

I have owned a russian tokarev. It's just a slim 19ll with a muzzle blast like there is no tomorrow. Pinpoint accurate too. Trigger was funky till I got used to it.

I believe the operators manual for the TT-33 says someting like this: "Ready, Aim at the DESSERTERS, Fire." IMHO the gun was probably used more for assasinations in Stalinst Russia than for combat.

Although, If you think about the layers and layers of clothing needed by soldiers operating so close to the Arctic Circle, Overpenetration is not even a slightest concern. In that environment The Holy ".45" and the 9mm have nothing on the 7.62 or the 7.63. -ddt