You like kids? Guns? In Utah??? No way!

[Goet]

http://www.sltrib.com/05092001/utah/95841.htm
Foster-Care Ban on Guns Under Fire
Wednesday, May 9, 2001


BY GREG BURTON
THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE

Ryan and Mary King want to become foster parents and one day hope to adopt. But King's refusal to disarm while having a foster child in his home disqualifies him for consideration as a foster parent, an administrative officer for Utah's Department of Human Services has ruled.
King, who has a concealed weapon permit, was notified in January that because he would not relinquish his concealed gun at home he could not become a foster parent.
In March, the hearing officer affirmed the ruling, prompting an alert among Utah's well-connected and tight-knit gun lobby.
"Some day we hope to adopt through the state," King told The Salt Lake Tribune. "If this hadn't happened we could have had a child by the end of last year, through Christmas, which would have been nice for us and could have been wonderful for some child. All that was thwarted."
On Tuesday, members of the Legislature's Administrative Rules Committee scolded officials at Human Services, some saying the agency had broadly interpreted a requirement that foster homes be safe and that weapons be inaccessible to children -- meaning King's guns must be locked up, not holstered on his body.
Administrative hearing officer Mary Rudolph wrote in her January decision that King "argues he has a constitutional right to carry a concealed weapon and be a foster parent."
"To be licensed to be a foster parent is a privilege," she wrote. "Even if [King] now were to agree to comply with the rule, he would not be credible because of his insistence."
Reflecting the Legislature's largely pro-gun stance, committee members questioned Rudolph's judgment.
Rudolph is "way out of line," said House Minority Whip David Ure, R-Kamas. "She ought to have her hand slapped."
Even Rep. Judy Ann Buffmire, a Salt Lake City Democrat who generally votes for responsible gun control, suggested Rudolph had overstepped her authority.
"I would hope [the last sentence] could be stricken" and King not dismissed out of hand, Buffmire said.
King appealed the denial Monday in 3rd District Court. On Tuesday, he asked lawmakers to exert pressure on Human Services to reconsider its decision and the rule on which his denial was based. His hope, he said, is to avoid a court battle.
"Although every person I speak to is first very shocked and upset that the agency would do this, upon speaking to the agency they all seem to do the old political two-step," King wrote in a recent letter to Sen. Mike Waddoups, R-Taylorsville.
During Tuesday's committee hearing, King suggested he might be willing to lock up his guns at home but could not abide a request never to carry his concealed weapon in the presence of foster children.
King's offer to store his guns while inside his home is a compromise the agency could consider, said Kate Lahey, legal counsel for Human Services.
"We actually think the rule is a good rule," she told lawmakers. It's in place because foster children "are different . . . and many do have problems with impulse control and violence."
"What's inaccessible to a 2-year-old isn't necessarily inaccessible to a strapping 18-year-old," she said. "There's no margin for error. We don't want to go back to the parent and say, 'We thought it more important he be able to carry his gun than it was to protect the children.' "
Human Services will revisit the rule, Lahey promised. Meanwhile, King's court appeal awaits an initial scheduling conference. Utah's gun-rights network will be watching.
"This seems to be another example of a pervasive administrative assault on permit holders in this state," said Sarah Thompson, a lobbyist for Utah Gun Owners Alliance.

[John/az2]

We don't want to go back to the parent and say, 'We thought it more important he be able to carry his gun than it was to protect the children.'

And I thought he was carrying for that very reason!

[Goet]

I'm sorry, but this particular issue bugs me. My wife works in a program for behavioral problem kids. For many, this is their last stop before lockdown. A good portion of these kids are foster kids--getting farmed out so some "upstanding" citizen can get $600 a month per child. She has been in the homes and met/spoken with these "parents". Many are on drugs, living with the boyfriend flavor-of-the-week. Some kids are sexually abused, emotionally abused, physically abused... well, you get the picture. The sad part is that the State knows about it. They just have no other option. They've essentially moved a kid from the fire back into the frying pan.
Utah has such a severe shortage of GOOD foster parents. Don't get me wrong. There are a ton of great, charitable people out there. I just think it is extremely prejudicial to be doling out kids to proven molestors/abusers and drug addicts instead of to gun owners.

Nice to know where we sit on the totem pole, huh?

[Charmedlyfe]

Gee, I guess no COPS can become foster parents.....


(Not an attack, simply pointing out that they prolly discriminate against us too)

[Dave R]

This is a bad case of judicial activism.

First, the child is safer with the father carrying than with the gun locked up. Safes can be defeated by stealing keys/combinations. But a gun cannot be removed from your person without your knowledge.

Second, CCW holders are generally proven to be more law-abiding than the population in general. We've voluntarily agreed to submit to more more background checks that the public in general.

Third, that kid is probably safer in that home than in a typical foster home, as described in earlier posts.

If the parents have not been disqualified for any other reason than refusal to disarm, then they have been discriminated against solely because they are exercising their 2A rights.

A very bad precedent to let stand.

[AmericaFirst]

Utah is pro-2nd. The head of Mormon Church Hinckley is not.
That said Utah is probably #1 in pro-2nd citizenry if Utah goes then forget the whole USA.

[EricM]

Administrative hearing officer Mary Rudolph wrote in her January decision that King "argues he has a constitutional right to carry a concealed weapon and be a foster parent."

Really? I don't know about the foster parent part, but too bad he isn't on the Supreme Court. We wouldn't need all these stupid CCW privilege schemes if more people thought like he.

[Correia]

Sorry America-First, but you are mistaken about Hinckley. The church stays out of politics for the most part, and the confusion comes from some statements concerning the church security office about things like LDS General Conference.

This is really starting to get on my nerves, last week I found out we get daily background checks, this week I find out we are undesirables. Screw this. I'm getting sick and tired of this crap. What next, do I have to sit at the back of the bus for the safety of the children, are we going to get our own water fountains? This is really ******* me off!

[Edited by Correia on 05-09-2001 at 02:47 PM]

[John/az2]

AmericaFirst,

The head of Mormon Church Hinckley is not.

I'd like to know how you figure this? Because I don't recall hearing anything anti-2nd from the Mormon church, let alone its head.

Correia,

"Please follow me to the BACK of the restaurant..."

The city of Glendale, Arizona already has a "Gun owner's" restroom. It's outside of the Teague (sp?) library, cuz us gun owners are not allowed in the library with a gun.

Of course THEY don't call it that...

[Goet]

The Church has made one official declaration that they believe guns should not be a part of worship.

The folks at the safe to learn, safe to worship initiative have taken a number of quotes (private, personal) of leaders and made it seem like they are backed by the Church.

What a bunch of Hogwash.
http://www.safeutah.org/religion.html

[Shooter 973]

Gosh I didn't think that I was endangering my own children by having a CCW and a few guns in my safe. I guess I'll have to rethink my positions and council my kids to be better citizens, after all they have never been abused, in trouble with the law, out of control or drugged up.
I guess I'll have to do a better job on my grandkids now and get rid of my guns. Even though they (grandkids) live with their own parents and are doing well.
My kids have never shot anyone or, used drugs, been in trouble and even got good grades, attend church and have high moral values. I feel like such a failure now that the state of Utah thinks CCW holders are potential threats to kids. I'm so ashamed.

[George Hill]

I have personally bodyguarded President Hinckley... Spoke with him at some lengths.

When he asked if I could shoot a pistol - I said Yes, I can.
His answer was "Good, very good..." Then he asked if I had read all the scriptures - I said yes - and his answer was "Good, very good..."

[Goet]

Exactly! I can't see such a humble person such as Hinckley even in the same category as those "hatists" gun-grabbers.

Makes me ill.

[John/az2]

Good. Very good...

I can't imagine a church as persecuted as the Mormons (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) were in their early years being anti-2nd or anti ANY amendment especially after declaring that the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution were divine and inspired documents.

[Paul K]

This issue bugs me too, and it even bugs me more that they are looking down on us gun owners, and IMPLYING that we keep guns just "laying around on the coffie table"
They seem to forget on how responsable gun owners are (im excluding crimnials)
If i where the foster kid, id pick a house with a gun rather than none. At least ill know that the foster parents are willing to defend whats theirs, and protect themselves.

[Drizzt]

Guns vs. foster parenting?

Couple question why they can't get license to give care
By Dennis Romboy
Deseret News staff writer

The Utah Department of Human Services licensing board revised its gun safety policy after denying a concealed weapons permit holder's application to become a foster parent.
Ryan and Mary Alice King say they're pleased about the rule changes though they remain confused about why they can't obtain a foster-care license.
"I'm kind of puzzled as to what happened to us," Ryan King said.
Their confusion stems from the state Office of Licensing's assertion that the Murray couple wasn't denied because Ryan King has a gun permit. King voluntarily told state licensors he has a permit and says he wasn't given any other reason for the rejections.
Licensing director Reta Oram said she can't disclose the board's reason because the Kings have asked a 3rd District Court to review the case.
The board rewrote the policy after Ryan King brought the matter to the Legislature's Administrative Rules Committee two months ago. He was hoping for a resolution at the panel's meeting this week but didn't get one.
Neither the old nor the proposed safety rule specifically addresses concealed weapons holders. Licensors are not supposed to ask prospective foster parents whether they have concealed weapons permits. Foster parents are allowed to own guns but must give the state "reasonable assurance" they will be inaccessible to children "at all times."
The revised policy clarifies that foster parents must store firearms in security vaults or locked cases, not glass-fronted display cases. Guns must be rendered inoperable with trigger locks, have the bolts removed or other disabling steps. Guns and ammunition must be locked up in separate places.
King said he has no problem with the proposed rule, which is open to public comment for 30 days. "I've always said I'd lock the weapons in the house if that is required," he said. But he still worries state officials could exclude concealed weapons permit holders from being foster parents by the way they interpret the policy.
Committee members don't understand the impasse between King and the licensing board if the gun permit isn't an issue.
House Speaker Marty Stephens, R—Farr West, said there must be a way to resolve it without going to court "unless this has become a war of personalities or wills and neither side wants to back down."
Rep. David Ure, R—Kamas, said he doesn't understand why the licensing board can't review the case or have the Kings make a new application.
Oram said it's too late because the case is headed to court.
Dale King, Ryan King's brother and attorney, said it's ridiculous to go court when the licensing division could work things out if it wanted to. "It's not a train that can't be stopped or turned around," he said.
Licensing board members Kit Hansen and Denell Bredsguard said the rule isn't intended to prevent people from carrying a firearm, concealed or unconcealed, in the presence of children. It's designed to safeguard families.
"A parent needing to be continually armed in the home would raise questions about the safety of the general environment as well as the ability of the parent to be close to the child," according the state's guidelines for licensors.
Hansen said foster children are different from children living in their birth homes. "These are not kids like you and I have raised," she told the committee. They have been damaged by adults and the system."
"They are angry. They are hurt kids," she said. "They are looking for ways to vent their anger and frustration."


http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,124...12460,00.html?



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