Soviet 5.45 vs. US 5.56

[taco]

How does Soviet 5.45 round compare to our 5.56 (.223) ballistically? I have heard that these two rounds are very similar when compared to our 55gr round. Does one have any advantage over the other caliber?

[Zak Smith]

Wound profiles of M193, M855, and 5.45x39 Russian:

M193


M855


5.45x39 Russian


The velocity for 5.45x39 is right between that of M855 and M193. From those figures, it appears as if 5.45 does not fragment as violently as 5.56 (or at all?!).

I would imagine that the BC and thus long-range trajectory would be pretty similar to M193, but I have never seen a BC published.

[[email protected]]

Well actually did u know that Kalashnikov didn't want to convert the AK to 5.45. Only due to pressure from his government did he do it. But of course with such a great design the AK took the conversion well. But as for the information concerning the 5.45 it depends what round u use. The Soviet Military' standard issue, i think, is a soft nosed bullet. U get better expansion compared to the ss109 round but with the cost of penetration. Really the only reason why they switched, i think, is because the soviets wanted to stay with the smaller calibar bandwagon, when in reality they had a great round.

[racegunner]

*I've heard* that the Russian round that is issued has a hollow cavity in the nose. This causes the nose to bend over causing the slug to tumble (or make tumbling more likely). It appears that this may be the case from the above photo of the 5.45, but I don't have 100% reliable data on the nose design. (anyone cut up one of these Russian mil. issue rounds yet?) I have also heard that the Mujahadin call this bullet the "poison bullet" due to it's high fatality rate in torso hits vs. the older 7.62x39mm that they used.

Johannes - *thanks for the info on the current sit. in Afghanistan. I suppose they were only the good guys when they fought the Soviets...makes sense.

[Edited by racegunner on 05-25-2001 at 04:26 PM]

[STLRN]

The military 5.45 is not a soft point round it is a gilded steel FMJ

[Zigokubasi]

From all the sources I have spoken to and collected over the years, the general consensus is that the 5.45 round *DOES* indeed have a hollow cavity in the nose under the jacket. It was intended to improve expansion, while still being legal for military use under the Geneva convention, but as it turns out the most marked change was not in the expansion, but in the center-of-gravity of the bullet. As a result, it begins to tumble faster upon impacting a soft target. IIRC, penetration is not adversely affected. Note that it does begin tumbling a good cm before the 5.56 rounds, hence the Mujahadeen monkier of "poison bullet". BTW, the Taliban militia is a *completely* different faction. The old Mujahadeen leader is their primary opposition to control of Afghanistan...

Ziggy

[SDC]

Here's a picture showing three of the rounds under discussion here; the Soviet 5.45x39mm round is fifth from the left (showing the lead nose-plug that moves forward on impact to destabilize the bullet), the 55-grain M193 is next, and then an SS109 (which is what the Canadian C77 and US M855 are based on).

[Johan762]

Actually, racegunner, the Mujahadin is not (never was) the Taliban. We are talking about two different groups here. The Mujahadin right now holds about 10% of Afghanistan (in the north, under the leadership Masood) and is fighting the Taliban.

Johannes

[Kharn]

What in the world are #1 and #8? (counting from the left)

Kharn

[LIProgun]

#1 looks like the Swedish THV 9x19mm AP round.

#8 is a flechette round, but in what caliber or for what weapon I have no idea.

[SDC]

Number 1 is a 9mm Luger THV/"Tres Haute Vitesse" ("Very High Speed") round made by SFM/Societe de Francaise Munitions in France, while number 8 is an XM645 5.6x57mm SPIW/"Special Purpose Individual Weapon" flechette cartridge back during the 1970's; these rounds were manufactured by IVI in Canada at a cost of $3.50 US <per round>, and fired off at the rate of 2000 rounds per minute in the test SPIWs. The full story is in Steven's book "SPIW: The Deadliest Weapon That Never Was".
Stacey C.

[Zigokubasi]

So, now that we're in the process of identifying those very cool, but really strange, rounds...what is #3? It looks like a soild .45, perhaps AP? I think #2 is a KTW teflon-coated brass round, and #4 looks like an FN 5.7mm round, but I don't know what #3 is...

Ziggy

[SDC]

Number 3 is a 45 Auto AP round made by National Metals; it's machined solid steel bullet, with a knurled bearing surface to allow the rifling to grip the bullet. You're right on the other two (FN 5.7 round, for the Five-Seven pistol and the P-90, and a teflon-coated bronze KTW 2nd-generation AP round.)

[Dead]

They will both do the job that they are meant for quite well. I know for a fact that I would NOT want to get even grazed by either.

So if the operator does their job, the round will do it's job.

I would say that the AK rifle chambered in 5.45 has less recoil (in a lighter rifle too boot) then the 5.56 round out of a M16. Both rounds barely produce any recoil though

Oh yeah ALL of the bullets that I have recovered from the 5.45 round TUMBLED violently in whatever soft target they hit. They were all flattened, as if hit by a hammer when laying on its side. And yes the tip was deformed.

[Jamie Young]

Well Look who I'm posting after!!!!
Now that I know what shooting an SAR II is like I can now have a say about the 5.45x39. I think the 5.45x39 is a better round than the old 7.62x39. Its much flatter shooting and follow up shots are easier. Especially when your out in a wide open field. I don't think any AK model shoots as tight a group as the M16/AR but I doubt there is much knock down difference. The 5.45x39 SAR I fired TODAY was much more controllable than the muzzle climbing AK's in 7.62. I'd like to see one of those SAR II with a scope to see how tight they shoot.
5.45x39 vs 5.56.......... Ain't no big difference.

[krept]

I could be wrong, but I believe that the 5.45 bullet is a tad bit longer (pic is down) than the 5.56, although the weight might not indicate this. To look at the above pic of the 5.45 wound cavity is really laughable unless they were comparing the lead core 5.56 with the 5.45 steel core rounds. Yes as shown they do have hollow points and will significantly loose stability when penetrating even an empty can.

The (apparent) length of the 5.45 even without the hp cavity i believe would make it more prone to fragmenting at the cannelure much like the 5.56.

I conversed with a guy that has dished out and seen the effects first hand of the 5.45 in combat and he said that without a doubt, you get hit with one of those, you are going to be maimed for life at the very least.

[GgnubrKihn]

Think that it has been said that the 5.45 has a longer effective combat range compared to the 7.62 x 39mm (400 meters vs 200 meters) but not the better penetration characteristics of the older round. Also, in a squad automatic role the 5.45 has very minimal muzzle climb. The 5.45 is stated by Fackler to be inferior to 5.56.

[MAKOwner]

The "air-pocket" 5.45 rounds aren't supposed to be as dependent on velocity to get the wounding done as the 5.56 rounds either. What range is it the 5.56 drastically loses it's ability to fragment? Seems to me that should come into the picture when comparing the 5.56 outta a short(er) barreled weapon like the M4 against the 5.45 always fired out of a short barrel... Just what I've heard...

[Kernel]

Cross sesction of the 5.45x39 Russian 7N6 ball projectile.

From the Cruffler.com techincal article "A Brief Look at the 5.45x39mm Cartridge." -- Kernel

[jawper]

From (http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000059.html)

"In most cases, the 5.45 x 39 mm is LESS damaging than 5.56 x 45 mm in both laboratory and real world settings.

The Russian M74 53 gr FMJ boat-tailed bullet has a copper-plated steel jacket surrounding an unhardened steel core and a small 5 mm long empty air-space under the bullet nose. Its typical muzzle velocity is 3066 f/s. This bullet commonly exhibits very early yaw in tissue, at approximately 2.75", but no deformation or fragmentation. In both uncomplicated extremity and torso wounds, the very early yaw allows the bullet to travel sideways through the body, increasing permanent tissue destruction and temporary cavitation effects. A small punctate entrance wound is present and the exit wound may be punctate, oblong, or stellate depending on the bullet yaw angle on exit.

In the same manner, 5.56 x 45 mm bullets which exhibit early yaw, but do not fragment, for example the M955 53 gr AP, create wounds very similar to the Russian M74 53 gr FMJ. However, many 5.56 x 45 mm bullets fragment or deform, rather than just yawing. Dr. Fackler’s seminal research at the Letterman Army Institute of Research Wound Ballistic Laboratory during the 1980’s illuminated the yaw and fragmentation mechanism by which SS109/M855 and other FMJ bullets can create wounds in tissue. When 5.56 x 45 mm bullets fragment, they create wounds substantially more damaging than those resulting from the 5.45 x 39 mm. The U.S. M855/Belgian SS109 62 gr FMJ boat-tail bullet has a partial steel core surrounded by a copper jacket and a muzzle velocity of around 3034 f/s. The behavior of this bullet is very similar to that of the 5.56 x 45mm M193 bullet. The wounds created by the M193 and the M855/SS109 are nearly identical. Typically, the bullet enters the tissue, leaving a small punctate entrance wound, and then travels point forward for approximately 4.7". If the bullet leaves tissue at this point, it will leave a small punctate exit wound and will have caused minimal tissue disruption along the wound tract. If it continues to travel in tissue, it will yaw to 90 degrees at this point, flatten, and fracture at the cannelure. The flattened bullet nose remains in one piece and retains about 60% of the original bullet weight. The other 40% of the bullet behind the cannelure shatters into many fragments that can spread up to 2.75" radially away from the wound tract. These fragment each cut their own path through the surrounding tissue, multiply perforating it. Temporary cavitation then exerts its stretch effects on this weakened tissue, synergistically increasing the permanent cavity by detaching tissue pieces. Wounds in body segments thicker than 4.7" show greatly enlarged permanent and temporary cavities and can create stellate exit wounds of 3.5 to 4.7" measured form the ends opposite the skin splits. The degree of bullet fragmentation is dependent on velocity. As the range to the target increases, the striking velocity decreases, limiting bullet fragmentation. At ranges above 200 m or so, the bullet remains intact and simply yaws.

When 5.56 x 45 mm bullets fail to yaw, fragment, or deform within tissue, the results are relatively insignificant wounds, similar to those produced by .22 long rifle bullets. This is true for ALL 5.56 mm bullets, including both M855 and M193. By the same token, relatively inconsequential wounds also result when 5.45 x 39 mm bullets fail to yaw in tissue. Combat operations the past few months have again highlighted terminal performance deficiencies with 5.56 x 45 mm 62 gr M855 FMJ. These problems have primarily been manifested as inadequate incapacitation of enemy forces despite their being hit multiple times by M855 bullets. These failures appear to be associated with the bullets exiting the body of the enemy soldier without yawing or fragmenting. This failure to yaw and fragment can be caused by reduced impact velocities as when fired from short barrel weapons or when the range increases. It can also occur when the bullets pass through only minimal tissue, such as a limb or the chest of a thin, malnourished individual, as the bullet may exit the body before it has a chance to yaw and fragment. In addition, bullets of the SS109/M855 type are manufactured by many countries in numerous production plants. Although all SS109/M855 types must be 62 gr FMJ bullets constructed with a steel penetrator in the nose, the composition, thickness, and relative weights of the jackets, penetrators, and cores are quite variable, as are the types and position of the cannelures. Because of the significant differences in construction between bullets within the SS109/M855 category, terminal performance is quite variable—with differences noted in yaw, fragmentation, and penetration depths. Luke Haag’s papers in the AFTE Journal (33(1):11-28, Winter 2001) describe this problem. Unfortunately, with decreased wounding effects, rapid incapacitation is unlikely and enemy soldiers may continue to pose a threat to friendly forces. Conversely, the Hornady 75 gr open tip match bullets and Black Hills loaded 77 gr Match King open tip match bullets have been working fairly well."