(OZ) Outcry over plan for cadets' access to guns

Oatka · June 3, 2001, 07:43 PM

These people are in another world. Hopefully their stupidity will put them more at odds with the public. "Gun Control Australia president Mr John Crook said the teen years were a high testosterone period for young men who should be kept away from anything that promoted violence."

ARTICLE

The Federal Government yesterday defended a revamp of the defence cadets scheme that will allow teenagers to be taught how to use guns.

Parliamentary Secretary Dr Brendan Nelson, who launched the new-look cadets at the Richmond RAAF base yesterday, said older cadets would be trained in safe handling and use of .22 firearms under strict supervision.

He said senior cadets may be given the opportunity to fire military rifles such as the F88 Steyr on military ranges. A retired brigadier, Mr Maurie Meecham, will conduct a study to assess how this will be done.

Gun Control Australia president Mr John Crook said the teen years were a high testosterone period for young men who should be kept away from anything that promoted violence.

Coalition for Gun control chairman Mr Roland Brown said the move was a bewildering backdown for the Government which implemented national gun laws following the 1996 Port Arthur Massacre.

Dr Nelson said their concerns were misplaced.

"I have been a public advocate for gun control all my adult life. I would be the last person to be advocating or implementing anything that would contribute to us living in a less safe society," he said.

Dr Nelson said the Australian Defence Force (ADF) would provide more support for cadets, with $30 million promised in the recent Budget.

He said cadets gave young people a sense of self-worth and self-esteem, and knowledge of the importance of working with others in a team environment.

The ADF also has a clear interest in nurturing cadets as a source of recruits at a time when it is hard-pressed to meet recruiting targets.

"If young people have a positive experience in cadets, they are more likely to join the reserves or the regular services in their later lives," Dr Nelson said. "At the moment about a quarter of reservists are cadets and 22 per cent of the regular services."

A review of the cadet services released last year found 25,000 young people were serving in 427 cadet units across the country. That was despite minimal defence assistance, stemming from the 1975 Whitlam government decision to withdraw official support at a time of strong anti-military sentiment.

The review said cadets demanded greater involvement with military-like activities and guns, and that was supported by their parents.

Politically Incorrect · June 4, 2001, 01:12 AM

Sounds to me that the Australian military is nothing more than glorified Boy Scouts down under.

However, if there was a battle between our Boy Scouts of America and their military, I would bet on the Scouts.

mussi · June 4, 2001, 03:59 AM

Anyonce wants to send some Aussie politicians over here?

Here, a 12-year-old gets to handle a SIG 550 under supervision, if
they're 16, they can take such a rifle home. Yes, full auto. That's
what I call a junior shooter education.

I suspect I'll send reservist battalion on a 747 down to Australia to
transform it into a Swiss colony, and then we'll inbreed them some
testosterone and brains.

Deadman · June 4, 2001, 06:17 AM

I couldn't believe the stupidity of these gun control f*cks.

I recently did my first 3 weeks of Aus. Army Reserve training with a platoon of 56 people. The vast majority were aged 17,18 and 19 (I'm 21). We all had the oppurtunity to fire the F88 Aug with both blank and live ammunition.
At no time did any of the male recruits exhibit voilent behaviour with the F88's, at no time did any of the recruits exhibit immature behaviour with the F88's.
To imply that the army isn't resposible when it comes to its training program is rather disrespectful. I can't say that the drill instructors I had are on my Christmas card list, but nonetheless they are damn good at their jobs.

As an example, when we had our first session with live ammo. to get a feel for the recoil there were at least 10 Corporals, 4 Seargeants, 4 Leuitenants and maybe a Major or a Captain. And of course when you're a lowly recruit, thats a damned intimidating group of men.
The session involved a lengthy safety and firing range procedure lecture, a quick fire demonstration demo. and then the recruits chance to fire an Aug. This involved 10 officers lying down next to an Aug, we lined up, put on our hearing protection, walked up to an Aug, lay down in the prone unsupported position, fired 10 rounds and then marched off to the waiting area.
Simple, quick and SAFE.

By the end of that 3 weeks everyone in the platoon had passed their weapons handling/safety test.

And the last time I checked in the last few years there have been no incidents involving military personnel, firearms and wanton violence here in Australia.

I considered sending an email to that gun control group, but of course I didn't want to waste my time. No point trying to teach a brick wall.

Luckily it seems the government is more than willing enough to implement this cadet program, so maybe when they do thats when I'll send a rather insulting email to that gun control group.

Drizzt · June 4, 2001, 08:23 AM

I mean no disrespect to the Aussies on this board, but my experience has been that the citizens of Australia really have no respect for their military. I've spoken to many an Australian while overseas, from Australia proper, to the bars of Thailand, and they almost universally had a complete disregard for their military, especially the Navy. When the citizens start out with no respect for the military, views such as those expressed should be no surprise.

Coronach · June 4, 2001, 10:16 AM

since you know that, should Australia ever face a threat, they would be forced to rely on the very people they malign for their freedom (or whatever passes for it down there these days).

Chances of one of 'them' picking up a weapon and standing a post? Somewhere on the order of nil to none.

And lurkers reading this board will doubtless wonder when the placid land of Australia ever faced a threat. WWII springs immediately to mind (lack of reading history, doomed to repeat, etc etc etc), and the political unrest in Indonesia is troubling. Wouldn't be the first time a nation launched a campaign of aggression against a larger/superior neighbor to help assuage trouble at home...

Wacky scenario? Sure. Almost wacky enough to really happen.

Mike

Steel · June 4, 2001, 02:09 PM

Who wants to seize Australia? I figure it is a weekend project. The citizens are unarmed and the military apparently is afraid of weapons.

Canada is next stop on our 2001 Imperialistm Tour...to victors go the moose....

croyance · June 4, 2001, 08:06 PM

An armed Australia would be a good counter weight to a Japan with nuclear weapons which is rememberiing its imperialist past, as well as a revialised China.

If a teenager can be safely taught how to used firearms, without any incidents, it opens the door to gun ownership by the public. This may be what the President fears. It shows that people can be around guns without causing crime.

I do wonder how skilled the cadets become if none grew up around firearms.

Sodbuster · June 5, 2001, 12:16 AM

mussi

I respectfully volunteer my services to your battalion.

Please send one SIG 550. I will supply the ammo.

Vielen Dank.

AmericaFirst · June 5, 2001, 10:32 AM

Should have the same fate as Atlantis

westcangunner · June 5, 2001, 10:55 AM

Steel, you could probably use a platoon of Boy Scouts to invade us. In my "neck of the woods" the Stars and Stripes would be flying from every long stick we could find.

Call first I'll put the coffee on....

BTW anybody know if the Russians gave us our tank back yet ??

WCG

ronin308 · June 5, 2001, 10:41 PM

I think Mussi posts just to make me feel jealous

Dan

mussi · June 6, 2001, 03:28 PM

Yeah, sure.

OTOH, we have so little crimianlity the cops here often walk around
without guns. Not even the criminals try to shoot LEOs.

The last LEO in the canton of Berne getting shot in 79 (IIRC) caused a
damn manhunt. They got the perp, that LEO was after a mafia gang. They
wanted to silence him to obstruct an investigation.

The mafia killer who comitted the act was caught, and most obviously,
he tried to run from the situation. Not very successfully, as it
seems.

June 4, 2001, 01:12 AM	#2
Politically Incorrect Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2000 Location: OHIO Posts: 300	Sounds to me that the Australian military is nothing more than glorified Boy Scouts down under. However, if there was a battle between our Boy Scouts of America and their military, I would bet on the Scouts. __________________ -Tommy Where else in the world can a 26 year own two Cadillacs? (A '73 Eldorado convertible and a '96 SLS.) Ted Kennedy said it best when he said, "Don't worry, I'll drive you home!"

June 4, 2001, 10:16 AM	#6
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,151	Which is exceedingly unfortunate, since you know that, should Australia ever face a threat, they would be forced to rely on the very people they malign for their freedom (or whatever passes for it down there these days). Chances of one of 'them' picking up a weapon and standing a post? Somewhere on the order of nil to none. And lurkers reading this board will doubtless wonder when the placid land of Australia ever faced a threat. WWII springs immediately to mind (lack of reading history, doomed to repeat, etc etc etc), and the political unrest in Indonesia is troubling. Wouldn't be the first time a nation launched a campaign of aggression against a larger/superior neighbor to help assuage trouble at home... Wacky scenario? Sure. Almost wacky enough to really happen. Mike __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

June 5, 2001, 10:32 AM	#10
AmericaFirst Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2001 Location: USA Posts: 258	Oz and UK Should have the same fate as Atlantis

June 5, 2001, 10:55 AM	#11
westcangunner Member Join Date: May 7, 2000 Posts: 78	Invading Canada Steel, you could probably use a platoon of Boy Scouts to invade us. In my "neck of the woods" the Stars and Stripes would be flying from every long stick we could find. Call first I'll put the coffee on.... BTW anybody know if the Russians gave us our tank back yet ?? WCG

June 3, 2001, 07:43 PM	#1
Oatka Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 1999 Location: Nevada Posts: 3,119	These people are in another world. Hopefully their stupidity will put them more at odds with the public. "Gun Control Australia president Mr John Crook said the teen years were a high testosterone period for young men who should be kept away from anything that promoted violence." ARTICLE The Federal Government yesterday defended a revamp of the defence cadets scheme that will allow teenagers to be taught how to use guns. Parliamentary Secretary Dr Brendan Nelson, who launched the new-look cadets at the Richmond RAAF base yesterday, said older cadets would be trained in safe handling and use of .22 firearms under strict supervision. He said senior cadets may be given the opportunity to fire military rifles such as the F88 Steyr on military ranges. A retired brigadier, Mr Maurie Meecham, will conduct a study to assess how this will be done. Gun Control Australia president Mr John Crook said the teen years were a high testosterone period for young men who should be kept away from anything that promoted violence. Coalition for Gun control chairman Mr Roland Brown said the move was a bewildering backdown for the Government which implemented national gun laws following the 1996 Port Arthur Massacre. Dr Nelson said their concerns were misplaced. "I have been a public advocate for gun control all my adult life. I would be the last person to be advocating or implementing anything that would contribute to us living in a less safe society," he said. Dr Nelson said the Australian Defence Force (ADF) would provide more support for cadets, with $30 million promised in the recent Budget. He said cadets gave young people a sense of self-worth and self-esteem, and knowledge of the importance of working with others in a team environment. The ADF also has a clear interest in nurturing cadets as a source of recruits at a time when it is hard-pressed to meet recruiting targets. "If young people have a positive experience in cadets, they are more likely to join the reserves or the regular services in their later lives," Dr Nelson said. "At the moment about a quarter of reservists are cadets and 22 per cent of the regular services." A review of the cadet services released last year found 25,000 young people were serving in 427 cadet units across the country. That was despite minimal defence assistance, stemming from the 1975 Whitlam government decision to withdraw official support at a time of strong anti-military sentiment. The review said cadets demanded greater involvement with military-like activities and guns, and that was supported by their parents.

June 4, 2001, 03:59 AM	#3
mussi Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2000 Location: Berne, Switzerland Posts: 762	Anyonce wants to send some Aussie politicians over here? Here, a 12-year-old gets to handle a SIG 550 under supervision, if they're 16, they can take such a rifle home. Yes, full auto. That's what I call a junior shooter education. I suspect I'll send reservist battalion on a 747 down to Australia to transform it into a Swiss colony, and then we'll inbreed them some testosterone and brains.

June 4, 2001, 06:17 AM	#4
Deadman Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2000 Location: Sydney Posts: 538	I couldn't believe the stupidity of these gun control f*cks. I recently did my first 3 weeks of Aus. Army Reserve training with a platoon of 56 people. The vast majority were aged 17,18 and 19 (I'm 21). We all had the oppurtunity to fire the F88 Aug with both blank and live ammunition. At no time did any of the male recruits exhibit voilent behaviour with the F88's, at no time did any of the recruits exhibit immature behaviour with the F88's. To imply that the army isn't resposible when it comes to its training program is rather disrespectful. I can't say that the drill instructors I had are on my Christmas card list, but nonetheless they are damn good at their jobs. As an example, when we had our first session with live ammo. to get a feel for the recoil there were at least 10 Corporals, 4 Seargeants, 4 Leuitenants and maybe a Major or a Captain. And of course when you're a lowly recruit, thats a damned intimidating group of men. The session involved a lengthy safety and firing range procedure lecture, a quick fire demonstration demo. and then the recruits chance to fire an Aug. This involved 10 officers lying down next to an Aug, we lined up, put on our hearing protection, walked up to an Aug, lay down in the prone unsupported position, fired 10 rounds and then marched off to the waiting area. Simple, quick and SAFE. By the end of that 3 weeks everyone in the platoon had passed their weapons handling/safety test. And the last time I checked in the last few years there have been no incidents involving military personnel, firearms and wanton violence here in Australia. I considered sending an email to that gun control group, but of course I didn't want to waste my time. No point trying to teach a brick wall. Luckily it seems the government is more than willing enough to implement this cadet program, so maybe when they do thats when I'll send a rather insulting email to that gun control group.

June 4, 2001, 08:23 AM	#5
Drizzt Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2000 Location: Going Out of My Head at a Rapid Pace..... Posts: 2,511	I mean no disrespect to the Aussies on this board, but my experience has been that the citizens of Australia really have no respect for their military. I've spoken to many an Australian while overseas, from Australia proper, to the bars of Thailand, and they almost universally had a complete disregard for their military, especially the Navy. When the citizens start out with no respect for the military, views such as those expressed should be no surprise.

June 4, 2001, 02:09 PM	#7
Steel Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 505	Who wants to seize Australia? I figure it is a weekend project. The citizens are unarmed and the military apparently is afraid of weapons. Canada is next stop on our 2001 Imperialistm Tour...to victors go the moose....

June 4, 2001, 08:06 PM	#8
croyance Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2001 Posts: 3,604	An armed Australia would be a good counter weight to a Japan with nuclear weapons which is rememberiing its imperialist past, as well as a revialised China. If a teenager can be safely taught how to used firearms, without any incidents, it opens the door to gun ownership by the public. This may be what the President fears. It shows that people can be around guns without causing crime. I do wonder how skilled the cadets become if none grew up around firearms.

June 5, 2001, 12:16 AM	#9
Sodbuster Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 1999 Location: Gallatin Co MT Posts: 1,129	mussi I respectfully volunteer my services to your battalion. Please send one SIG 550. I will supply the ammo. Vielen Dank.

June 5, 2001, 10:41 PM	#12
ronin308 Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2001 Location: Purdue University Posts: 1,980	I think Mussi posts just to make me feel jealous Dan

June 6, 2001, 03:28 PM	#13
mussi Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2000 Location: Berne, Switzerland Posts: 762	Yeah, sure. OTOH, we have so little crimianlity the cops here often walk around without guns. Not even the criminals try to shoot LEOs. The last LEO in the canton of Berne getting shot in 79 (IIRC) caused a damn manhunt. They got the perp, that LEO was after a mafia gang. They wanted to silence him to obstruct an investigation. The mafia killer who comitted the act was caught, and most obviously, he tried to run from the situation. Not very successfully, as it seems.