Which is the more valuable tactic?

[Ben Shepherd]

For those who shoot IDPA, or other type of competition pistol matches, which tactic do you lean on harder, faster string times or better shot placement to lower the score? I am usually one of the slower ones in my group, but more accurate also. Which is better? One perfect COM hit, or a slightly off center double tap?
PLEASE don't just post "shot placement is the key". I'm looking for honest real-world feedback, with your reasoning behind your answer. (If we were all capable of perfect shot placement at extremely fast speed, I wouldn't be asking this question.)

[blades67]

My times are slower because I'm not there to play a game. I don't try to use as little of the provided concealment as the RO's will allow just for the faster time. If I wanted to run through an obstacle course and shoot as quickly as possible I'd compete in IPSC.

[treeprof]

Having just recently started shooting IDPA, I've discovered that my fairly accurate shooting (e.g. 2nd for accuracy in my 1st match) is more than offset by the fact that I am REALLY far too sloooooow, as my score in that match put me abt 3/4 the way down the list. When I speed up, my accuracy tends to go down the toilet, so I've started spending a lot more time practicing shooting faster at 3-15 yds, both from the holster and low ready. That'll hopefully improve my IDPA scores, but I think that in real life I'd take good accuracy and moderate speed over faster, less accurate shooting, assuming I had choose one or the other.

Ideally, with practice I'll be able to gradually improve my speed to a greater degree than my accuracy suffers as the speed increases. I'll be in Bill Roger's school this spring, which I hope will increase my speed AND accuracy much more than I can do on my own.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I think accuracy is the most important. When pushing for speed, you may be able to wring an extra second or two out of a string but past a certain point, your accuracy will go all to hell.

If you stay concentrated on accuracy, you will eventually develop speed with practice. The inverse is not true since you can concentrate on speed all you want and you'll never develop accuracy. In fact, rushing to make shots will probably encourage sloppy technique and cause your shooting to be worse than before.

My own standard is that if I am putting my rounds within an inch on the same target at 7yds, I am going too slow and can stand to speed up a little. Unless I am meeting that standard, I mostly concentrate on trying to get good solid hits (in theory anyway - but I can tell you that every bad run I have had was a result of me trying to push myself faster than I was capable of going)

Another thing I would recommend is some form of handgun training - it can make a tremendous difference in how well you can shoot.

[C.R.Sam]

I think B. Roberts pretty well nailled it. Get good first and speed will come. Even as blazingly fast as Mr. McGivern was, he was adamant about getting a good sight picture first.

Sam

[Blue Duck357]

One instructor I had during intitial firarms training had a simple rule on that. If you could cover your group with you palm from 0-10 yards speed up, if not slow down. Don't really know his credentials other than being an instructor and former police officer but it does tend to sound reasonable.

[KP95DAO]

Ditto on what B. R. said. One reason I shoot at 25yds so much is that I know if I can hit there, closer is a sure thing only faster.

[blades67]

KP95DAO - Don't count on that. I have seen more good runs blown on a missed seven yard target than anything else this side of weapon failure.

[stick]

It depends (sorry). Thoughts on scoring:

You can make up for points by speed (assuming you put all rounds on paper, misses hurt). The question is how much accuracy do YOU sacrifice for a given amount of speed? Depending on the stage the scoring method may change (Comstock, Vicors,...). This will affect your strategy, as well.

Here's an example: comstock scoring 6 shot stage with major power factor.

6 A hits in 6 seconds
3 A & 3 C hits in 4.8 seconds
6 C hits in 3.6 seconds

All score a 5.

As for "One perfect COM hit, or a slightly off center double tap?" If the course of fire is 2 hits on target, 1 COM hurts. Slightly off center is not an issue, a hole anywhere in the A-zone counts for 5 points. Two holes touching is beautiful but gets you the same points as 2 holes 3" apart.

If you are trying to figure out how to train for a game: start slow, smooth and accurate. Focus on your mechanics and form, speed begins here.

If you are using the competition as a tactical training tool, your thought process should change.

[Ben Shepherd]

Stick, you hit the question a little more square than I was able to. That's exactly what I was getting at: Some of the guys I shoot with get very good scores with horrid accuracy. I always thought the point of the "game" was preparing for the horrible "what if" situation, not shoot the most the fastest.
I just wanted to see if others on the forum agreed with my state of mind on this subject.

[rkc]

front sight front sight front sight

IN real world, first shot.

However, in training a lot of folks I often see the second shot of a double tap is more accurate. Fast shooters can slow down and get good placement. Poor shots can't speed up.


Get on target. Placement is my goal. But I sometimes get excited and machinegun the close range targets at IDPA

[Dave T]

One of my former instructors (named Cooper by the way) always said what was required was a ballance between Accuracy, Power and Speed.

An accurate shot that comes too late or lacks sufficient power may not save you.
A powerful shot that misses or comes too late may not save you.
A fast shot that misses or lacks sufficient power may not save you.

In the 30 years since I was introduced to this concept I haven't seen or heard anything to change the fundamental wisdom of DVC.

[Ben Shepherd]

DaveT, did he give any idea on his idea of the way to cut up that pie? 33/33/33, 60/20/20, etc.

[TaxPhd]

Stick,

I agree with your concept, but your numbers seem a little off.

You said:

"6 A hits in 6 seconds
3 A & 3 C hits in 4.8 seconds
6 C hits in 3.6 seconds

All score a 5."

6 A hits is 30 points, divided by 6 is indeed a hit factor of 5
3 A & 3 C hits is 27 points, divided by 4.8 = hit factor of 5.63
6 C hits is 24 points, divided by 6 = hit factor of 6.67

You are talking comstock scoring in IPSC, right? (I think so, since IDPA uses a 0, -1, -3 target, rather than A,B,C,D zones).

Was it Nathan Bedford Forrest that advocated "The firstest with the mostest"?

[Dave T]

Ben,

According to Mr. Cooper, both in his writing and at Gunsight, the key is "ballance" which he went on to explain means 33.33333333333.....% for each element.

Put another way, carry the most powerful gun you can hit well with, quickly.

The various gun games (IDPA and IPSC) have gotten away from this concept in the name of winning contests. What you are witnessing is their divergence from this basic concept of defensive pistol craft.

It is interesting to note that IPSC, founded by Cooper, has as it's moto DVC or Diligentis, Vis, Celeritas which is the Latin version of Accuracy, Power, Speed (forgive my spelling but it's been too many years since my last Latin class).

[Ben Shepherd]

Thanks Dave, that's what I thought the split would be. Nothing like good ol' common sense.
Yes, I'm proficient with my pre-ban 15 shot 9mm. However, I consider my snubbie 357 to be far superior for SELF DEFENSE purposes.(not swat entry or any other type OFFENSIVE situation)
If I really need 15 shots I'm in a h*** of a lot more trouble than I'll probably live through.
(This is not meant to start a caliber war, this is a "works for me" statement)

[tstr]

As stick and others have said, the best game play comes from finding the perfect balance between speed and accuracy.

My recommendation for practice is to shoot for perfect accuracy as fast as you can. Speed will come to you more automatically that accuracy will. That is to say, if you shoot accurately, you'll slowly get faster at it. You do need to push your speed though. It's easy to get stuck in a rut of "This is how fast I can go to shoot accurately." Always try to pick up that pace by moving a little faster. But as soon as the accuracy suffers, slow back down.

That's my advice anyway. It may not win you many competitions at first, but in the long run you'll be a better shooter.

tstr

[stick]

Sorry for the error above. I was using minor power scoring but I said major. Must have missed my mid afternoon feeding. Thanks for the correction TaxPhD.

[Coop de Ville]

Don't forget transitions...

From target to target or cover to cover or whatever. I find I lose time moving from place to place and then reestablishing my bearings. Also, mag changes are a good time to run up the clock. Do these non-firearm routines fast and you'll drop a lot of time.
Beat -Coop

[jason10mm]

whoops, posted halfway through.

[jason10mm]

I like to see all A zone hits, but as long as I did not miss a target and get at least 1 COM in the first pass, WITH NO NONTHREAT HITS, I am usually happy. I always sweep after my last shot and make sure every target has at least 1 good COM hit, if not I hit them again on the principle that that target was still standing. I know a lot of guys who are deadly accurate, but slow, and a couple of guys who are blazing fast but miss a lot. I used to be in the latter group but I am trying hard to move to the center. IDPA scoring isn't particularly realistic IMHO, so looking at the scores doesn't help me. I just think about howI moved and whether or not I could have shot myself if I was one of the bad guys (does that make sense?). Fortunately there are no prizes in IDPA, so no external pressures to "win" the game. If you really want a challenge, put dark t-shirts on the targets so you can't see your shot placement. Watch the people who dump rounds into every target because they can't tell where their shots are going. Those are the guys who are not watching their front sight and don't really know where they are shooting. It is a very instructive exercise, but costly in dark shirts
In reference to the single COM hit vs several "off-center" hits, that depends on your definition of off-center. If you mean peripheral hits at the edge of the target, those are useless. If you mean hitting in or near the A zone, just not being able to cover all your hits with your hand, there is a theory about that. I have heard that in an ideal situation you would want to hit the bad guy in several different areas, like 1 shot in each lung, or puncture several vessels in different areas, to increase the odds of a quick stop. Supposedly 2 hits right on top of each other would not be as effective because the 2nd round is just going through destroyed tissue from the first shot. Having seen many gunshot fatalities and non-fatalities, I don't think it really matters. Either you pop a major blood vessel or nerve trunk or you don't. For our purposes, if the bad guy does not stop immediately, if doesn't matter if he dies in the OR a day later or lives in prision for 50 years. There just isn't any non-vital stuff in the center of your chest that you can give up. Most bodies I've seen where hit with the fatal bullet dead center in the sternum or took hits from the side, through the shoulder or armpit that traveled into the chest. I've seen many 1 shot drop head shots as well. So I would say that as long as the bullets are COM, it dosen't matter if they are going through the same hole or not, if the bullet is big enough to do the job, thats where it needs to be. Man, this thing is turning into a book, better get back to work LAter.

[WESHOOT2]

I want speed speed speed!

BUT I must have "C"s or better.

Sometimes I shoot matches from concealment.....