"Verboten Topics"

[KP95DAO]

On 1-3-02 Law Dog closed a post here after mentioning "verboten topics". These seem to be those which bring out strident debate. The thread he closed was about a religous topic. I would like to see if we can list all the "verboten topics" on The Firing Line. This would be without discussion of said topics. Perhaps this would help us in choosing what we post about. I'll start.

Religion
Duplex/Blended powder loads

[deanf]

I don't think you can discuss verboten topics, for one thing.

[labgrade]

Easy enough & in all actuality, we get away with much more than the Forum Policies state:

"
1) All Topics and Posts must be related to firearms, accessories or civil liberties issues.

2) Language that would be inappropriate in the polite company of strangers is quite unwelcome here.

3) No spamming, trolling, flaming or other personal attacks, be they acrimonious or veiled in humor. If you take issue with a Member's position, by all means speak your mind. If you have a problem with a Member's religion, creed, national origin, sex, politics, associations or personal hygiene, take it to email.

4) As we can never convey a philosophy through a few rules, we reserve the right, in our sole discretion, to edit or delete posts and/or to revoke Membership. No Second Chances; No Argument; No Trial; No Way. At best you will receive one warning."

As with every other "discussion" about this subject, cite a thread/provide evidence, rather than an "accusation."

All else fails, we are guests in Rich' site. By extension, his moderators & admin-types hold full-sway.

It's a private property rights issue.

[westex]

Glocks or any other piece of equipment that is square or have funny names.

[johnnyj]

If anyone would like to discuss verboten topics, please email me at matc93@hotmail.com

I would be more than glad to respond to topics about which I am interested in.

Some people are afraid to discuss things as the society has been constructed so that people are made to feel bad about what they should not. They are made to feel shame for things they have not perpetrated. You can discuss anything, this still is America or is it Amexico, I forget.

I do understand that in order to run a forum you have to have rules and what not, however, I feel that the General Discussion should be opened up to ALL topics. One of the definitions of "general" is "not specific". I would like to see that applied.

America First!

jj

[sumabich]

I'm with Westex! Guns that are plastic blobs, without style, form and with funny names! Humor unless the moderators are in on it. Anyway thanks for the laugh Wetex, I think Rich and most of the moderators are trying to make sure the board can appeal to all and be a place where we can discuss topics without flaming each other. Hey Don, Lawdog and Blues man, do I get any extra "get out of hell" points for saying that?

[labgrade]

johnnyj,

Sorry, but you "joined" this forum with explicit conditions understood when you did - "General Discussion" or not.

That ends the discussion, & your argument regards anything else TFL. You "joined," & through that, accepted TFL's conditions.

"we reserve the right, in our sole discretion, to edit or delete posts and/or to revoke Membership. No Second Chances; No Argument; No Trial; No Way"

What else could be more definitive? You bought in to these rules by registering & period. you agreed to play by those rules.

Don't like it? bail out & go post somewhere that allows a "more free" discussion - I could suggest a few that are quite a bit less "high brow," but do allow more "free expression."

We will feel the loss of your freeedoms & contributions - seriously.

Personally, I'd like more "freedom," but TFL is a more "friendly" access - & I do very much appreciate their limitations & very much so, their allowances within that same "curtailment." The main reason I keep coming back - it's an above-board board - with [CLASS.

I have always been a "radical" (rational anarchist) & some of my posts have reflected such - doubful you could match my feelings, or beliefs. Still, as a condition to acceptance into TFL, I have moderated my posts such that I have been allowed continual posts.

Only once was I "cautioned" - ever - to "be nice(er)" to an(other) idiot (yes, another, as I am too, at times) who was allowed posting privildges.

If you work within the (very easy) framework established here at TFL, I think that you will be allowed full expression.

If not, you'll be "shot at."

Such as it is, you will not find a more fair forum to discuss what you will.

& I an't even a moderator-type ...

[Art Eatman]

johnnyj, I sympathize with your view, but there are a gazillion sites to discuss any subject your little heart desires. Part of the deal here, aside from "just guns", is to persuade people of the validity of our views about RKBA. That is best done in a package-deal arena of courtesy and politeness, knowledge, and firearms/reloading safety.

Some topics become verboten due to the...hmmm..."aggressive" way they're presented. That's the fault, then, of the instigator, rather than TFL.

, Art

[MatthewM]

I've been to another firearms site where both moderators and members will jump all over you and call you every name they can think of if they simply have an opposing view. - I don't visit that site.

I recently explored another new to me firearms site. - They were complete idiots and likely just gubmnt employees trolling...
The only site I know that is more polite only has a single forum...

We come here to discuss and learn and share. However, most of the best people will run away if it becomes a place for personal attacks and nothing but arguing.

[Drizzt]

I believe that one reason that rule was instituted, was due to some "other" firearms-related boards that became somewhat consumed with personal attacks and flames, stemming from discussions of non-firearm related topics. This board should have a more singular purpose. As Art said though, there are certainly other boards where other topics can be brought up. I have referenced this board to many people I know, who are interested or curious about firearms, but need to have more information before progressing. I feel that whatever feelings may be hurt over a few simple rules, pale in comparison to the importance of presenting a friendly place where ALL can feel welcome.

And remember, its not always the topic itself that may cause the issue, but the way the responses are framed. I myself have had to monitor what I post, because too many of the threads degenerated into "LEO-Bashing" and other arguments. Does this mean that there are things that I feel are important to our commuity that I do not post here? Yes it does.

[johnnyj]

First off, I don't have a little heart. I have a big heart in spirit.

But anywho, I of course understand why the forum is the way it is. I'm not complaining. But I am expressing my view that all too often things are censored, even when the discussion is not mean nor are the posters. I believe that any website can do whatever they want and make their folks abide by the rules, just as a store can refuse to serve me. Fine with me. I haven't been censored, but I have seen it happen. now on to more important things, like the SWAT teams that keep shooting innocent people...

jj with a big heart

[Snap]

Well, I'm bored, so I will list as many as I can think of... just to get the thread back on topic

I don't know if you're talking about verboten or just controversial topics. I'll list all of them I can think of, plus other topics that tend to be popular or generate huge threads.

RKBA - State or Individual right?
Abortion
Cloning
Religion
Anything involving Race.
Bill Clinton
Rosie O'Donnell
The Sacred Order of The Mall Ninja<tm>
What would YOU do if...
Government confiscation of property
The latest shoot-out in the news
Drugs
What handgun/rifle/shotgun/knife is the best?
PRK

I'm sure I missed a bunch, but I've gotten bored of being bored, so I'm going to go play a computer game

[labgrade]

Well, Snap, unless you can somehow (let us count the ways .... ) tie in to a discussion relating to firearms & associative freedom-related issues, regaring your:

I don't know if you're talking about verboten or just controversial topics. I'll list all of them I can think of, plus other topics that tend to be popular or generate huge threads.

"RKBA - State or Individual right? (you're on fairly firm ground)

Abortion - (you may stretch the conversation - probably will - howz it relate to RKBA?)

Cloning (ditto =(Re The Sretch - what's it got to do with The 2nd?)

Religion (again, it may strech it - depending ....

Anything involving Race. (? - again)

Bill Clinton (He's an a$$hole - what's there to discuss?)

Rosie O'Donnell (ditto = a pig = end of discussion)

The Sacred Order of The Mall Ninja<tm> (please don't)

What would YOU do if... (Geez! , but OK, but please don't (again!!!) ) "Kill 'em with discretion." (could apply to the MN, or to the "customer," depending .... )

Government confiscation of property (Gasp!, if you must!) Guvmint has no powers to ... 'nuff said.

The latest shoot-out in the news = probablly was a FU - from either a civilian or an LEO perspective - we all screw up.

Drugs (Legitimate & gasp!, if you must!) ***! & ?

What handgun/rifle/shotgun/knife is the best? (Just Good Grief!, where's the "definitive" answer?) use yer fave & be blessed.

PRK (Ha! Just flush the toilet! & be done with that mess! & perhaps, ,start over, & very best wishes ....

No responses re in any way are official TFL policy nor their beliefs/thoughts - YMMV

For myself, I'll play a bit with Mrs Nugents' L'il Boy Teddy, : .... "at your peril, for anything else - if you don't "get it.""

[Long Path]

"What's the best gun for defense against bears?"

"Straussberg Tests-- Were They and All Those Mutilated Goats Real?" (esp. when Rich is around!)

"Which Is Better? 1911 v. Glock"

Mainly, we're just tired of those.

Then there are the off-topic threads. Yes, we have SOME leniency, but there is a point.

Then we have the threads that are not just off-topic-- they're utterly divisive. Some good examples listed above. And, no, we don't show much leniency with those topics. We're not here to talk about those. Art put it pretty succinctly: there's a gazillion sites to fulfill your heart's desire.

Finally we come to the topics that either: [A]Promote illegal or unsafe acts
[B]Are distasteful in any context and bring us dishonor by association
[C]Attack other Members

...the three of which are obviously getting no air time.

Folks, we really aren't interested in being the Thought Police. We don't want to inhibit the right to free speech. But there's some speech we'd rather not have in our living room. And, frankly, that's our right. Understand that we Moderators quite often find ourselves asking our Members to delete or change posts that we entirely agree with, or at the least, can fully appreciate. If a post merits acting quickly or if the Member refuses to change it, we modify the post ourselves.

All best, and by all means, please find us new and interesting topics. I can (and often do) read all day.

--L.P.

[longeyes]

Boorish behavior absolutely ought to be off-limits, agreed. There is never a need to fire off ad hominem attacks because of philosophical disagreements.

Then again, there's such a thing as being too comfortable also. If things political are to be discussed in these pages at all, we have to accept the fact that not all topics can be wrestled with while under sedation. Someone, if a topic has some fire to it, is always going to get provoked. Personally, I believe that is healthy and productive so long as we are courteous and the intent always remains the exploration of stuff near and dear to us. This forum is about guns but it is also about civil liberties--can the two be separated?--and we have a valuable opportunity to refine our own thoughts and feelings about important issues in the company of good fellows well met. I know this: I find the Legal & Political forum to be a place I go constantly to prick up my ears. This is a time where we all have to take seriously what is happening "out there" and to learn what we can. A lot is at stake, for all of us. Let's take advantage of that, while we can.

[KP95DAO]

Labgrade,

The general discussion portion has the phrase "Posts must be firearms related." This is highlighted. There is no such stricture on the Legal and Political portion. I take it there is a reason for this. Then again, the Handloading/Reloading portion has within its gudelines the ability to talk about "your favorite, secrect load".

So why do you insist on post being firearms related on this portion of TFL?

And while we are using letters to designate words; what does your use of ***! mean? I have a good idea what you intended it to mean. If what I think is correct you are straying across the line of civility which is expected on TFL. I know you won't mind being "shot at" since you said that is what can and should be expected.

On the list of verboten topics or posts I found it kind of hard to believe the post that had the pictures of nude women which had supposedly been murdered. To me that was way over the top. But then, who am I?

[Art Eatman]

KP95DAO, some stuff gets posted and responded to long before a moderator has any chance to make any judgement. It takes a finite amount of time to "moderate".

Right now, the weather outside is colder than my ambition to go do yardwork or change oil and filters can override. So, I'm at TFL fairly steadily through the day. Having a life outside TFL means that hours can go by before checking in.

Do you hve any idea how quickly several of 12,000 can create havoc?

By and large, as long as folks act like grownups, it all works. If folks are smart enough to have the money to be able to buy a computer and get on the Net, why can't they be smart enough to know to be halfway polite and "adultish"?

Speaking specifically as a moderator: Passionate belief in a cause does not in any way justify anybody's rudeness or crudeness when supporting or explaining that belief--nor for others, when disagreeing.

, Art

[Don Gwinn]

I don't see the point of arguing about the placement of this thread, but if you really want to know, it belongs in Questions, Suggestions, and Feedback. That would be the place to post all questions, suggestions, and feedback about the site.

The difference between General and Legal and Political is that L&P was specifically created as a place to discuss politics and civil liberties. Only posts directly related to those subjects are allowed in L&P, though we have a pretty broad definition of "related." We try to keep discussion as open as possible without degenerating into a place to flame back and forth. We believe that most members are here for a place to discuss serious issues seriously. Amending a post about favorite ice cream flavors with "Oh, yeah, and I consider ice cream a basic human right, so this thread can't be closed!" doesn't count.

I personally have very few topics I would consider verboten. I will summarily close and probably delete calls to violence, questions or suggestions about illegal activities (within reason) and advocacy of bigotry in most any form. Other than that, I try not to close anything purely by topic. Still, threads on religion, abortion, etc. tend to spiral out of control within a few posts and become flamefests, so a lot of moderators close them at the first sign of trouble, myself included. Remember that I'm bound as a moderator to give one warning and then the boot for personal attacks--so I take the prevention of "forest fires" very seriously. If I didn't, some current members would not be able to post today.

[labgrade]

KP95DAO,

Of course, you are correct regards my "***?" ref.

I'm not a mod-type here at TFL, etc. & don't get to decide anything.

From what I've seen in the past coupla years being a TFL member, the mods do a wonderful job of maintaining most any sort of "related" civility - & pretty much on topic.

Quite a few threads go further than what I would "allow," if a mod-type, for this forum.

FWIW, I called together the original "founders" of the Tyranny Response Team (yip & yay! :rolleys: good for some reasons & not, for others .... I could elaborate here .... no matter, but, ..... ) - that's just facts & history. I was also the only moderator on the then TRT's national discussion forum/website & whatever I decided was "God's own "truth,"" &/but I never bounced a single poster. Came close, but private e-mails always did the trick.

Whatever .....

TFL has many moderators, who have their own take on what any of the rules are - same-same regards what my take may be regards something versus your own (or whomevers'). It's an interpretation ...

In any event, TFL provides the best site for freedom issues that I've yet to run across. Hopefully, your mileage is similar.

Even if a post is closed, it is still available for a free expression of that initial point - very seldom has any ever been outright deleted.

[LawDog]

There are some topics which are so ingrained in people that no amount of discussion is going to change their minds, and that are ingrained at a level which is best described as 'primal'.

One such topic is abortion. Any discussion centered on the subject of abortion becomes, for want of a better term, a crusade, with such descriptive terms as 'murderers' and 'burning in hell' freely bandied about.

Not the best foundation for a good, solid debate you must admit.

Homosexuality, and the acceptance or sinfullness of such, is another one that is off the list.

'My religion is better than your religion' and variants thereof are also bad topics.

'My race is destined to rule the world' and its offshoot 'The Jewish Conspiracy' is a Big Time No-No, which leads us to--

--my personal favorite: anything involving the Illuminati, the Bilderbergers, the Tri-Lateral Commission, The Benevolent High-and-Mighty Secret Order of the Golden Gerbil, black helicopters or whichever Dark Conspiracy Organization du jour happens to be the darling of the Internet para-nerds this time about gets hammered, stomped, bent, folded, spindled AND mutilated by Yours Truly.

As far as drug topics go, run a search using 'war on drugs' and see how off-limits that particular subject is.

LawDog

[johnnyj]

LawDog
"There are some topics which are so ingrained in people"

"Not the best foundation for a good, solid debate you must admit. "

When something is wrong, there is no debate.

jj

[KP95DAO]

Most people would recoil in horror over the way "public debate" was conducted 150 years ago. It was not the "civilized" thing we have now. Of course things were different then. People feared God more than man. A man with truth on his side had (and still has today, I might add) a breast plate which would carry the day.

No, today most shrink in fear that the light might touch them. What a pity if we should happen to come out of the darkness and into the light.

[Don Gwinn]

And with your pardon, JohnnyJ, if I understand you correctly, then that's exactly why we discourage discussion of those topics. Too many people who are so sure that one thing or another is wrong that they will brook no reasoned debate on the topic. It just doesn't stay civil for long after that.
TFL is not a battleground. If it can't be discussed civilly and reasonably, it doesn't belong here.

KP95, your signal-to-noise ratio is plunging. We're discussing TFL here.

[KP95DAO]

Don,

Testing, testing. What I meant was that what is accepted now as a through discussion would pale in comparision to what used to be acceptable. Look at the Presidential debates. I debate and try to persuade on the basis of "the facts, just the facts". I leave the emotions to someone else. If the facts support my case I press on. If they do not, I graciously concede. Too many do not. That's ok as there is always tomorrow.

This ties in with our rights concerning firearms. I don't know how many discussions that ended with no progress in sight. That does not stop me from trying again. Why even my brother-in-law has handled my handguns recently and spoken of getting a firearm for his family's protection. I thought I would never see the day. This victory gives hope and spurs me on. I have many stories of people at work, primarily females and persons of color, who have come around when the truth was presented to them with conviction. And so I continue to present the facts about topics and, getting back to my initial post, that is why I wanted to know which ones were verboten. Which ones, here, shall stay shrouded and untouched.

[johnnyj]

Without conviction and passion, what are we? sheep?

When something comes up that I disagree with, I must object to it. Rudeness and so called "civility" are terms used to silence those who have strong beliefs. I have been told by professors that I put my beliefs across in a rude way. When something is highly objectionable, I see no other way. Of course it may put some off, but I believe that benefits of having passion are worth the trade offs. Strong beliefs that can not be bent by society are signs of solid moral character. John Brown is my number one hero, here on Earth anyway, because he knew what was right and wrong and he did not let the immorality of this world stop him from doing what was right.

This does not refer to the belief that "X" gun is the ultimate gun. That is a waste of time and energy. THOSE debates should be instantly shut down. However, I understand the rules imposed upon the posters by TFL and I have no problem with them. Impose whatever rules you want on the posters, if we don't like it, we can leave. I will particpate in any discussion which is posted that I am interested in. I maintain decency and if the discussion is closed by the moderator, fine, in order to keep the forum up and going, sometimes things have to be closed. It is a shame though sometimes WHAT is chosen to be closed and for what reasons? I'm kind of new here, is it okay to discuss police brutality and the wave of innocents being murdered by police? (I'm really asking).

Take care and I do enjoy and appreciate TFL although it consumes hours of my life everyday... I might need to work on that.

jj