A new definition of 'Gun Nut'--Alaska rules on CCW case.

Jffal · January 11, 2002, 04:48 AM

Mixed feelings about this one.
Jeff

Alaska Court Rules on Concealed Gun
By MARY PEMBERTON
Associated Press Writer
January 10, 2002, 1:54 PM EST
ANCHORAGE, Alaska -- Judge Natalie Finn took away Timothy Wagner's gun permit after he claimed someone had implanted a computer chip in his head and injected him with deadly chemicals.
A state appeals court, though, ruled that Finn erred, saying Alaska's concealed-carry law does not allow general concerns about mental illness to play a role in deciding whether someone should have a gun.
Gun control advocates say the episode illustrates a dangerous accommodation to the gun lobby by Alaska's Legislature. Gun owners, however, argue that Alaska's law safeguards their Second Amendment rights and that the public is adequately protected.
The Department of Public Safety has issued more than 18,000 such permits since 1995, when Alaskans were allowed to carry concealed handguns under restrictions that include an age limit and a gun-safety course.
In 1998, the law was amended so that applicants did not have to prove they actually needed to carry a concealed weapon. Also, whether someone was mentally ill or had been treated for mental illness in the preceding five years was taken off the list of questions applicants were asked -- a change cited by the appeals court last year in Wagner's case.
The Alaska law requires applicants to disclose only whether they have ever been committed to a mental hospital or found mentally incompetent by a court. "Yes" answers are grounds for denying a permit.
"We wanted to remove the potential for arbitrary and capricious decision making on the part of the issuing agency," said Brian Judy, Alaska liaison for the National Rifle Association.
But Nancy Hwa, spokeswoman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, complained: "They are taking away the discretion of local law enforcement to make these decisions in the best interest of public safety."
Other gun-friendly states, including Texas, Montana and North Carolina, have much stricter standards when it comes to mental instability and concealed-carry permits, said Luis Tolley, the Brady Campaign's state legislative director.
In Montana, the law says a sheriff can deny a permit if there is reasonable cause to believe "the applicant is mentally ill, mentally defective or mentally disabled."
North Carolina applicants with a "physical or mental infirmity that prevent the safe handling of a handgun" can be denied a permit.
Even Texas has a long, broad list under mental health, Tolley said. The restrictions include anyone that has been diagnosed with "a psychiatric disorder or condition" that is likely to cause impairment in judgment, mood, perception or intellectual ability.
"Alaska seems more likely than many states to allow mentally ill people to carry guns in public," Tolley said. "By establishing such a narrow definition, that is allowing an awful lot of people who are mentally ill to carry guns in public."
Wagner's case began in 1998, when he entered the Alaska Mining and Diving store in Anchorage, dripping wet, and told a clerk he was trying to soak away chemicals in his body before they killed him. He also said a computer chip had been implanted in his head. Another employee overheard the conversation and called police.
A background check revealed he had a permit to carry a concealed gun. When an officer asked Wagner if he had a gun with him, Wagner pointed to a briefcase next to him. In it was a loaded .357 and several bags of bullets.
Alaska law requires permit holders who come in contact with police to tell officers immediately if they are carrying a concealed gun. Wagner was convicted of failing to do so.
Finn sentenced Wagner to three years' probation and ordered him not to possess guns during that period. She also ordered him to forfeit his concealed-gun permit until his mental illness was "either cured or improved."
The Department of Public Safety later revoked Wagner's permit based on Finn's decision.
Efforts to reach Wagner were unsuccessful. He has no telephone listing in Anchorage. He told the court he was an "inventor" and designed guns and ammunition. The public defender's office said it had not recently heard from him.
Wagner had no prior convictions, according to court documents. After his arrest, police took him to a state mental hospital. Wagner testified that he was released after being interviewed.
The amended law was enacted over the veto of Gov. Tony Knowles, who warned at the time that the measure could allow dangerous people to carry concealed weapons.
The Department of Public Safety has taken a wait-and-see attitude in Wagner's case. He has not again asked for his permit back and no court has ordered it returned, said Del Smith, deputy commissioner.
"I think Finn was concerned about his behavior, and rightly so," Smith said. "He made some pretty bizarre claims."
___
On the Net:
Brady Campaign: http://www.bradycampaign.org
National Rifle Association: http://www.mynra.com

yankytrash · January 11, 2002, 04:53 AM

Who's to say he's crazy? I swear, when I went for my physical for the Marine Corp, after my overnight stay I woke up with a pounding headache!

But then, something in my head jus told me it was alright, and that I should forget the headache, along with some papers I signed.

12-34hom · January 11, 2002, 07:03 AM

Yea, this nitwit need to be packing a concealed weapon...

Just an accident waiting to happen or maybe a ticking time bomb.

either way the media will be lapping this one up.

12-34hom.

sven · January 11, 2002, 09:06 PM

From MetaFilter :

Quote:

A new definition of 'Gun Nut'
Alaska state appeals court says a judge "erred" when she removed a gun permit from a man who "claimed someone had implanted a computer chip in his head and injected him with deadly chemicals". Apparently "general concerns about mental illness" are not allowed to be considered in such cases.

From the discussion...

Quote:

I have a very hard time understanding why anyone needs a gun. (Note I say 'need', not 'want').

CastleBravo · January 11, 2002, 10:06 PM

The judge's mistake was not having the person clinically evaluated to determine if they were mentally ill. Just because the guy seems like a loon on the face of it does not in and of itself justify her decision, because she is not qualified to make that determination.

That said, I have no objection to keeping weapons (to include tacks, butter knives and cigarette lighters) from people suffering from severe forms of mental illness. I'd hope that would go without saying, but you never know...

MeekAndMild · January 11, 2002, 10:35 PM

Mental illness can be very compelling.

Did you hear about the paranoid woman who got together a cult-like band of gullible folks, convinced them of her delusions and conned them into going on a shooting rampage which left over 80 people dead? She was never arrested nor was she even forced to have a mental exam.

Now she's running for governor of Florida.

AR-10 · January 11, 2002, 10:50 PM

"Now she's running for governor of Florida."

Hehehe!!!

Too funny! Good point though.

What is the definition de jour of mental illness? Bit of a grey area. No pun intended.

Deadman · January 12, 2002, 01:50 AM

Also note that he said 'running for governor', not governess. Because as we all know, that thing ain't a lady

DAVID NANCARROW · January 12, 2002, 02:14 AM

Yes, I NEED a gun.
Used to be I wanted one, but after hearing all the "reasons" of the so-called ruling elite, I NEED several, and so do you!

Field-dressed · January 12, 2002, 02:36 AM

Wait a minute. I thought all of us gun-totin' Alaskans had the Chip implant. Huh!

Yes, the guy needs some professional care, but the fact that he carries a gun is much less disturbing to me then the prevailing attitude toward guns on MetaFilter.

MeekAndMild · January 12, 2002, 10:30 AM

AR-10

Sorry dude that wasn't a joke.

Better a garden variety schizophrenic with one gun than a paranoid lawyer who controls thousands of them.

**Don Gwinn** · January 12, 2002, 10:47 AM

Won't name names, but I think that guy was a member here.

xxena · January 12, 2002, 11:55 AM

Don - didn't realize you were downstate....anymore on VAna's trail with the remaining counts ? Only had the initial email from John and Warren at GSL when the UUW charges were dropped against her in chambers....

As for this Alaskan Gun Nut - I copied and emailed to a friend that lives in Alaska and is one of their pain in the butt progun
activists up there...

He moaned and has not said much since...

Xxena

David Park · January 13, 2002, 02:45 PM

The book The Seven Myths of Gun Control by Richard Poe discusses the "mentally ill = no guns" situation in detail. According to Clinton's Surgeon General David Satcher, 50 million Americans (20% of the population) are mentally ill. Some examples of mental illness include excessive coffee drinking and PMS. All these troubled people were urged to come forward and seek treatment. Of course, that would also prevent them from owning firearms.

This is a difficult issue to combat, because the gun-banners shriek "you want to arm the mentally ill!" Usually some examples like the one above will reveal the truth. You can also point out that a supposedly "ill" person can still buy knives, drive a car, or have children, so it doesn't make sense to focus only on preventing gun possession, unless there's a hidden agenda at work.

40ozflatfoot · January 14, 2002, 03:48 PM

"The judge's mistake was not having the person clinically evaluated to determine if they were mentally ill. Just because the guy seems like a loon on the face of it does not in and of itself justify her decision, because she is not qualified to make that determination."

Nor should she be allowed to make that determinatiion, if qualified, as long as she judges the case.

Since there are no generally accepted standards that I know of, almost any medical condition can be labeled a "mental illness" or can be associated with a mental illness, thus allowing the grabbers to take away our guns. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard a drug company claim that "everybody gets depressed sometime" in their ads for their anti-depression drugs. Look at the restrictions listed in the article. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that everybody has fallen under one or more of those restrictive characteristics at one time or another. The problem here is that I don't see any qualifying statement that says something like: temporary, short-term, transitory, nor requiring professional attention, and so on.

Can you imagine the grabbers trying to get every woman that suffers from PMS to turn in her CCW every 28 days or so, then re-apply?

Yanus · January 14, 2002, 03:55 PM

I know this question may be off topic, but I just gotta ask....
Every time he has a sexual thought, does his garage door open?..
Inquiring minds want to know........

January 11, 2002, 04:48 AM	#1
Jffal Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 1999 Posts: 369	Alaska Court Rules on Concealed Gun Mixed feelings about this one. Jeff Alaska Court Rules on Concealed Gun By MARY PEMBERTON Associated Press Writer January 10, 2002, 1:54 PM EST ANCHORAGE, Alaska -- Judge Natalie Finn took away Timothy Wagner's gun permit after he claimed someone had implanted a computer chip in his head and injected him with deadly chemicals. A state appeals court, though, ruled that Finn erred, saying Alaska's concealed-carry law does not allow general concerns about mental illness to play a role in deciding whether someone should have a gun. Gun control advocates say the episode illustrates a dangerous accommodation to the gun lobby by Alaska's Legislature. Gun owners, however, argue that Alaska's law safeguards their Second Amendment rights and that the public is adequately protected. The Department of Public Safety has issued more than 18,000 such permits since 1995, when Alaskans were allowed to carry concealed handguns under restrictions that include an age limit and a gun-safety course. In 1998, the law was amended so that applicants did not have to prove they actually needed to carry a concealed weapon. Also, whether someone was mentally ill or had been treated for mental illness in the preceding five years was taken off the list of questions applicants were asked -- a change cited by the appeals court last year in Wagner's case. The Alaska law requires applicants to disclose only whether they have ever been committed to a mental hospital or found mentally incompetent by a court. "Yes" answers are grounds for denying a permit. "We wanted to remove the potential for arbitrary and capricious decision making on the part of the issuing agency," said Brian Judy, Alaska liaison for the National Rifle Association. But Nancy Hwa, spokeswoman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, complained: "They are taking away the discretion of local law enforcement to make these decisions in the best interest of public safety." Other gun-friendly states, including Texas, Montana and North Carolina, have much stricter standards when it comes to mental instability and concealed-carry permits, said Luis Tolley, the Brady Campaign's state legislative director. In Montana, the law says a sheriff can deny a permit if there is reasonable cause to believe "the applicant is mentally ill, mentally defective or mentally disabled." North Carolina applicants with a "physical or mental infirmity that prevent the safe handling of a handgun" can be denied a permit. Even Texas has a long, broad list under mental health, Tolley said. The restrictions include anyone that has been diagnosed with "a psychiatric disorder or condition" that is likely to cause impairment in judgment, mood, perception or intellectual ability. "Alaska seems more likely than many states to allow mentally ill people to carry guns in public," Tolley said. "By establishing such a narrow definition, that is allowing an awful lot of people who are mentally ill to carry guns in public." Wagner's case began in 1998, when he entered the Alaska Mining and Diving store in Anchorage, dripping wet, and told a clerk he was trying to soak away chemicals in his body before they killed him. He also said a computer chip had been implanted in his head. Another employee overheard the conversation and called police. A background check revealed he had a permit to carry a concealed gun. When an officer asked Wagner if he had a gun with him, Wagner pointed to a briefcase next to him. In it was a loaded .357 and several bags of bullets. Alaska law requires permit holders who come in contact with police to tell officers immediately if they are carrying a concealed gun. Wagner was convicted of failing to do so. Finn sentenced Wagner to three years' probation and ordered him not to possess guns during that period. She also ordered him to forfeit his concealed-gun permit until his mental illness was "either cured or improved." The Department of Public Safety later revoked Wagner's permit based on Finn's decision. Efforts to reach Wagner were unsuccessful. He has no telephone listing in Anchorage. He told the court he was an "inventor" and designed guns and ammunition. The public defender's office said it had not recently heard from him. Wagner had no prior convictions, according to court documents. After his arrest, police took him to a state mental hospital. Wagner testified that he was released after being interviewed. The amended law was enacted over the veto of Gov. Tony Knowles, who warned at the time that the measure could allow dangerous people to carry concealed weapons. The Department of Public Safety has taken a wait-and-see attitude in Wagner's case. He has not again asked for his permit back and no court has ordered it returned, said Del Smith, deputy commissioner. "I think Finn was concerned about his behavior, and rightly so," Smith said. "He made some pretty bizarre claims." ___ On the Net: Brady Campaign: http://www.bradycampaign.org National Rifle Association: http://www.mynra.com

January 11, 2002, 04:53 AM	#2
yankytrash Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2001 Location: Farnham, Va Posts: 2,176	Who's to say he's crazy? I swear, when I went for my physical for the Marine Corp, after my overnight stay I woke up with a pounding headache! But then, something in my head jus told me it was alright, and that I should forget the headache, along with some papers I signed. __________________ Right turn, Clyde.

January 11, 2002, 07:03 AM	#3
12-34hom Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 1999 Location: Iowa - northeastern Posts: 1,772	Computer chip planted in noggin? Yea, this nitwit need to be packing a concealed weapon... Just an accident waiting to happen or maybe a ticking time bomb. either way the media will be lapping this one up. 12-34hom.

January 11, 2002, 10:06 PM	#5
CastleBravo Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 1999 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 2,017	The judge's mistake was not having the person clinically evaluated to determine if they were mentally ill. Just because the guy seems like a loon on the face of it does not in and of itself justify her decision, because she is not qualified to make that determination. That said, I have no objection to keeping weapons (to include tacks, butter knives and cigarette lighters) from people suffering from severe forms of mental illness. I'd hope that would go without saying, but you never know... __________________ Sean Smith Visit The Pit for absolutely no good reason! "Hey don't worry, I can handle it. I took something. I can see things no one else can see. Why are you dressed like that?" -Jack Burton, Big Trouble in Little China

January 11, 2002, 10:35 PM	#6
MeekAndMild Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2001 Posts: 4,992	Mental illness can be very compelling. Did you hear about the paranoid woman who got together a cult-like band of gullible folks, convinced them of her delusions and conned them into going on a shooting rampage which left over 80 people dead? She was never arrested nor was she even forced to have a mental exam. Now she's running for governor of Florida. __________________ In a few years when the dust finally clears and people start counting their change there is a pretty good chance that President Obama may become known as The Great Absquatulator. You heard it first here on TFL.

January 11, 2002, 10:50 PM	#7
AR-10 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2001 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,184	"Now she's running for governor of Florida." Hehehe!!! Too funny! Good point though. What is the definition de jour of mental illness? Bit of a grey area. No pun intended.

January 12, 2002, 01:50 AM	#8
Deadman Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2000 Location: Sydney Posts: 538	Also note that he said 'running for governor', not governess. Because as we all know, that thing ain't a lady

January 12, 2002, 02:14 AM	#9
DAVID NANCARROW Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2000 Location: TEXAS Posts: 1,367	Yes, I NEED a gun. Used to be I wanted one, but after hearing all the "reasons" of the so-called ruling elite, I NEED several, and so do you!

January 12, 2002, 02:36 AM	#10
Field-dressed Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2000 Location: Alaska Posts: 148	Wait a minute. I thought all of us gun-totin' Alaskans had the Chip implant. Huh! Yes, the guy needs some professional care, but the fact that he carries a gun is much less disturbing to me then the prevailing attitude toward guns on MetaFilter.

January 12, 2002, 10:30 AM	#11
MeekAndMild Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2001 Posts: 4,992	AR-10 Sorry dude that wasn't a joke. Better a garden variety schizophrenic with one gun than a paranoid lawyer who controls thousands of them. __________________ In a few years when the dust finally clears and people start counting their change there is a pretty good chance that President Obama may become known as The Great Absquatulator. You heard it first here on TFL.

January 12, 2002, 10:47 AM	#12
Don Gwinn Staff Join Date: March 9, 2000 Location: Virden, IL Posts: 5,914	Won't name names, but I think that guy was a member here. __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don Gwinn: Chicago Gun Rights Examiner

January 12, 2002, 11:55 AM	#13
xxena Member Join Date: October 23, 2001 Location: Illinois - NW of Chicago Posts: 91	Don - didn't realize you were downstate....anymore on VAna's trail with the remaining counts ? Only had the initial email from John and Warren at GSL when the UUW charges were dropped against her in chambers.... As for this Alaskan Gun Nut - I copied and emailed to a friend that lives in Alaska and is one of their pain in the butt progun activists up there... He moaned and has not said much since... Xxena __________________ We are all born free under our personal God and mother nature, only other men can enslave us, if we allow it ! - A woman can never own too much jewelry or too many .45's.......

January 13, 2002, 02:45 PM	#14
David Park Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 1,225	The book The Seven Myths of Gun Control by Richard Poe discusses the "mentally ill = no guns" situation in detail. According to Clinton's Surgeon General David Satcher, 50 million Americans (20% of the population) are mentally ill. Some examples of mental illness include excessive coffee drinking and PMS. All these troubled people were urged to come forward and seek treatment. Of course, that would also prevent them from owning firearms. This is a difficult issue to combat, because the gun-banners shriek "you want to arm the mentally ill!" Usually some examples like the one above will reveal the truth. You can also point out that a supposedly "ill" person can still buy knives, drive a car, or have children, so it doesn't make sense to focus only on preventing gun possession, unless there's a hidden agenda at work. __________________ Libertarian for Bush '04

January 14, 2002, 03:48 PM	#15
40ozflatfoot Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2001 Location: SD Posts: 464	"The judge's mistake was not having the person clinically evaluated to determine if they were mentally ill. Just because the guy seems like a loon on the face of it does not in and of itself justify her decision, because she is not qualified to make that determination." Nor should she be allowed to make that determinatiion, if qualified, as long as she judges the case. Since there are no generally accepted standards that I know of, almost any medical condition can be labeled a "mental illness" or can be associated with a mental illness, thus allowing the grabbers to take away our guns. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard a drug company claim that "everybody gets depressed sometime" in their ads for their anti-depression drugs. Look at the restrictions listed in the article. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that everybody has fallen under one or more of those restrictive characteristics at one time or another. The problem here is that I don't see any qualifying statement that says something like: temporary, short-term, transitory, nor requiring professional attention, and so on. Can you imagine the grabbers trying to get every woman that suffers from PMS to turn in her CCW every 28 days or so, then re-apply?

January 14, 2002, 03:55 PM	#16
Yanus Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 1999 Location: Nowherespecial, TX Posts: 435	I know this question may be off topic, but I just gotta ask.... Every time he has a sexual thought, does his garage door open?.. Inquiring minds want to know........ __________________ Never do an enemy a minor injury. Machiavelli "Stay alive with a 45" "Keep America Beautiful, plant a terrorist!"