New Hobby: Target Shooting

[HKguy9]

OK.

Let's say I want to get started in target shooting. I have several criteria.

1. I am not interested in hunting. Just hitting the gong at XXX yards. Not to knock hunting, but I just want to set some criteria for the gun.

2. I want a good out-of-the-box gun. If I had a choice between getting a $1000 gun and getting $1000 of work on it, or getting a $2000 gun and shooting it out of the box, I rather get the $2000 gun. I am considering the Sig rifles (3000, LRS2), Sako, but will consider others. Again, no custom work, just out-of-the-box. Is this doable?

3. I want all top-of-the-line equipment. I hate trying to sell equipment once I grow out of it.

4. Do I NEED to reload? How far will over-the-counter ammo get me? If so, will a Dillon 650 do, or I hear rifle guys talking about RCBS loaders, is one better than the other?

5. I am interested in the Leupy 4-14x50 scope but will consider others. I hear US Optics and Swarovski are good. Your thoughts?

6. The shooting itself--should I teach myself, or get an instructor?

7. What caliber is the best starter caliber? I would like to work up to .338. SHould i start with .308 and work up to .300 Win Mag?

8. I have an M1A SCOUT (shorty) that I barely know...should i learn to shoot 100, 200, 300, 600 with iron sights before I move up to a scoped bolt rifle? How about getting the aforementioned massive scope for the M1A and learning to do it there before I move up to a $3000 bolt gun?

Thanks.

[Art Eatman]

Lemme take a run at #4. I suggest reloading, since you can tailor loads to your own particular rifle. Much of the factory stuff is excellent, but they won't necessarily provide that nth degree of accuracy.

For what you speak of doing, I don't recommend a progressive. Most target-folks go more for precision in the loading, not speed. Even for my hunting loads, I'll weigh to within one granule of IMR 4064 powder. (Granted, I'm picky.)

Outside of some high-quality, precision dies, I've always been happy with used stuff. Gunshows often have guys offering to sell "stuff" that has become surplus to their needs, at less than half of new costs. I don't think I've ever seen an RCBS "O"-type press that's been hurt. Just stay away from anything that uses aluminum/alloy in the frame...

#8: You already have an M1A in .308. Okay, stay with the iron sights and get just as good as you can with it. You have lots of time to make a decision about your high-quality rig, but the sooner you make of yourself an excellent shot, the better off you will be. Instruction from a qualified person never hurts.

$0.02, Art

[stick]

Couple of questions to help shape an answer. What range(s)? What is reasonable accuracy to you. What style of shooting (off hand, prone, bench)?

Responses:

#2- Depends on the above questions. Accuracy of 1MOA@100yds, sure. <0.5MOA, nope. Also do you consider something like a Robar "out of the box"?

#3- top of the line but not custom. If you want top-notch match grade stuff, get it built. You have thrown out prices of several thousand dollars. You can get excellent rigs built (to your needs) for this kind of $.

#4- To get the most out of your rifle: reload. No sense in putting 1.5MOA ammo through a .5MOA rifle. You'll want a single stage press, not a Dillon 650. If you stay with 308, Federal GM will do nicely for some time but will run $15-20/box.

#5- Optics will depend on your range and budget. Leupold makes nice scopes. Magnification will depend on what/how you are shooting (i.e. hard to off-hand a 36x). After (or up the food chain from) Leupold: Nightforce and the European glass.

#6- Quality instruction is always a good thing. The more rigorous (long range or matches) the shooting the more valuable it is.

#7- "Best" starter caliber depends on what type of shooting. Why do you want to end up with a 338? Paper doesn't know how hard you hit it but your shoulder will. If you are thinking about a 1000 yd cartridge look at the 6.5mm rounds (/284, /06,...). Working "up" to a cartridge is expensive, since you ruled out custom work, that is a new rifle for each step once you out grow the current cartridge.

#8- In off hand shooting the basics carry over from one rifle to the next. Shoot you M1A while saving up for the bolt gun.

[orlando5]

I agree. You might want to go with a .22lr target rifle. .308 or .223 is fine.

If you have over $3000 to spend, then spend it on a Tango-51 or Bravo-51. Both guaranteed .25 MOA.

http://www.snipercentral.com/tangobuy.htm

These two rifles are out of my price range so I settle for a Rem 700P

[Steve Smith]

Skunkabilly, You said:

1. I am not interested in hunting. Just hitting the gong at XXX yards. Not to knock hunting, but I just want to set some criteria for the gun.

First of all, just gongs? They could get a little boring after a while. To be perfectly honest, I doubt that a custom rifle is necessary for a "hit or miss" game. If you're shooting for a score on a target, though, the higher quality will ensure repeatability.

Ok, I take that back...I'll bet there are a lot of Silhouette shooters that would not shoot a stock gun to save their lives.

No matter what, if you get serious, expect to go custom.

2. I want a good out-of-the-box gun. If I had a choice between getting a $1000 gun and getting $1000 of work on it, or getting a $2000 gun and shooting it out of the box, I rather get the $2000 gun. I am considering the Sig rifles (3000, LRS2), Sako, but will consider others. Again, no custom work, just out-of-the-box. Is this doable?

See above. Otherwise, if you want to shoot at real targets, then expect to go custom sooner or later. Depending on what genre of rifle target shooting you get into, you'll need either a semi-auto or a both action, but the range of calibers is large and you'll need to determine the specific use first. telling you to buy gun "x" is a pretty poor thing to do right now.

3. I want all top-of-the-line equipment. I hate trying to sell equipment once I grow out of it.

Absolutely! If what you decide to do is something for long range, you'll definately need a good spotting scope. That's one of the more expensive items that you'll need, so that's why I brought it up. Kowa has a real following in the Highpower Rifle genres, and you can get them for a good price from www.jarheadtop.com Look at the 821M, and call him about the 661 and the TSN-1.


4. Do I NEED to reload? How far will over-the-counter ammo get me? If so, will a Dillon 650 do, or I hear rifle guys talking about RCBS loaders, is one better than the other?

David Tubb has told me personally that he uses a Dillon for his reloading. He has admittedly made a few adjustments, but they're affect is mainly psychological, as are most things in the sport. Many, many Highpower guys use Dillon 550b presses, and are extremely sucessful. My Dillon makes ammo that I cannot outshoot.

5. I am interested in the Leupy 4-14x50 scope but will consider others. I hear US Optics and Swarovski are good. Your thoughts?

If you go with a scoped competition, then those companies are fine...Nightforce also has a big following, I hear. You could get some info from Bogie on this, if you go to Benchrest.

6. The shooting itself--should I teach myself, or get an instructor?

"Get into" the sport first, and after a year of learning the basics, then get an instructor...you don't want to waste your time and $$$ with him explaining the course of fire.

7. What caliber is the best starter caliber? I would like to work up to .338. SHould i start with .308 and work up to .300 Win Mag?

Again, depends on what type of shooting that you want to do.

8. I have an M1A SCOUT (shorty) that I barely know...should i learn to shoot 100, 200, 300, 600 with iron sights before I move up to a scoped bolt rifle? How about getting the aforementioned massive scope for the M1A and learning to do it there before I move up to a $3000 bolt gun?

See answer #7.

Sorry, man, there are just a TON of different "target" sports out there...we need more specifics. Here are the rifle sports that I can think of offhand:

Highpower Rifle (Service rifle, Match Rifle, Palma (long range)
Shutzen
Silhouette (open, and "limited" ?)
Smallbore (gallery, three position, prone, four position)
"Tactical" (very little going on with this, so far)
Benchrest (don't know all the group names, but there must be two or three at least)
3 gun
Air rifle (three postition, prone, four position)

I can't think of any more, but I know there are. I just listed 17 or 18 different competition types, and you'd use a different type of gun for EACH. So, what do you want to do?

My suggestion, Highpower Rifle. Sorry, I'm biased. Iron sights at 200, 300, and 600 yards, from positions, not a bench.

Click here to learn more: http://www.mountainwebs.com/lrgc/hp_intro.htm

[Archer1440]

RE:Always been puzzled by how many rifle shooters like Kowa optics when Leica APO-Televids are so much better.

[Steve Smith]

Televids cost about $200 morwe on average, and in HP at least, all we're doing is looking at mirage and target spotters. Using that logic would mean that we'd all be using the Hubble space telescope.

[HKguy9]

Thanks for explaining the different types of competitions. I am not sure yet. It would be fun to set up bowling pins a couple hundred meters away in the desert and obliterate them.

I wanted to shoot gongs because it sounded fun even though I never tried it. I was never a fan of shooting paper. Too much walking back and forth.

Keep 'em coming. Could you guys elaborate more on the different disciplines?

Granted, I suck at rifles. SUCK. Because I'm new and don't know my capabilites, whether enormous or limited. I am a decent pistol shot (I finish at the bottom of competitions, but better than most casual shooters). I don't know where I stand in rifles, nor do I know the different disciplines.

I kind of want a Blaser LRS2 in .338 Lapua and a Leupold 4-14x50 just to have. I don't know why, it turns me on. It has me looking into the sport, but I don't want to spend money until I am sure that is what I want.

[C.R.Sam]

I'm with Art. Keep it simple.
Use your M1-A, learn it, enter matches.

You don't say what part of Kali you are in but there are a lot of ranges there with good people who would be glad to work with you. El Monte and SanGabrial Valley both excellant for workin with neophytes.

Once you can outshoot your M1-A, then look onward.

Sam

[HKguy9]

Thanks CR Sam that's what I plan on doing right now. "Fortunately" I don't think the M1A Scout will be as good as a long range shooter than the M1A standard/Loaded/NM/SM/Carlos Hathcock, so I will have an excuse to move up to a BFR. I don't plan on getting a .50BMG just yet.

What events are there at the ranges you mentioned?

[C.R.Sam]

Bench. Service. Position. Fun.

I think El Monte is limited to 100 yd now. It is next door to Pachmayers.

San Gabrial Valley goes to 200 yd for sure and maby 300. Good for .50cal too.

My data is not currant, last match for me in the area was bout 6 years ago. Gotta be somebody here who is up to date.

Sam

[stick]

San Gabriel Valley Gun Club runs NBRSA (bench rest) once a month. 6 are sanctioned, 6 are "practice". I don't remember any of the other match schedules.

Public facilities include 100 & 200 yard rifle ranges and 50(?) yard pistol. You just get to drool over the wall at the 300yd line. There are also trap, skeet and duck tower facilities. Some training/ match ranges as well.

NO AP rounds, the impact zone join a national forest.

In SoCal, high power/service rifle (actual range) can be had through the Santa Margarita (sp?) gun club. They run the once a month matches at Camp Pendleton. Don't know how regular it is with post 9/11 securtiy at the base.

[Steve Smith]

Unfortunately, with Cali laws, unless you already own an AR lower, you'll never be able to use the best HP rifle on the line. However, there are a ton of HP matches going on in Cali, and most guys are probably sticking to the M1A (M14). Unfortunately, you have a "Scout" model, which isn't legal for Service Rifle competition, but my bet is that they'll let you shoot anyway. You'll fal under the Match Rifle category, or in a DCM match you'll just be shooting for fun. We're always trying to increase participation in our sport, so any Match Director worth shooting under should welcome the chance to add a newbie...even if he were shooting an SKS. Here's a hint: Don't go to a State or Regional match for your first time...you'll kinda slow things down. Try to find a "Clinic" match. I know you don't know what you want to do yet, but you should at least try this...the cost should be less than $35 for the match fee, and you'll have a great time.

Paper targets: At least in HP, we have "pits" where the competitors take turns pulling and marking targets. The matches are held in "relays" so you pull targets a portion of the time, as does everyone else. You'll totally understand once you go to a clinic match.

Match descriptions: I'll do my best.


Highpower Rifle (Service rifle, Match Rifle, Palma (long range)
Read the website I posted. Service rifle holds you to shooting a Garand, an M1A, or an AR, in specific configurations. This is what I shoot. Service Rifle is shot at 200, 300, and 600 yards. Match Rifle is almost an "Open Class" where you may use a semi-auto or bolt rifle, but the course of fire is the same, so the bolt rifle needs to be reloaded quickly (for the two rapid fire stages), either by stripper clips or by a magazine. Match Rifle is at the same ranges as Service. Palma and Long Range is all slow fire, and mostly with bolt guns, at 800, 900, and 1000 yards. All Palma is shot with the 155 gr. 308 bullet. "Long Range" is open to more calibers, but is not as widespread.

All HP is shot with iron sights. In Service, you must shoot with apeture sights similar to that which was issued. In Match and Palma, the rules are much more relaxed. In addition, all HP is shot form position...meaning that in Service and Match, you shoot standing ,sitting, and prone. Palma is all prone.

Shutzen
I have no idea what these guys do.

Silhouette (open, and "limited" ?)
Targets are metallic representations of chickens, pigs, and rams. Ranges are up to 500 yards (I think?) I don't know whether this is from a bench or from position.

Smallbore (gallery, three position, prone, four position)
All position shooting. Often indoors. Most all is with iron sights. These are some of the most challenging shooting sports of all. Three pos. is Standing, Sitting, Kneeling, I think, and 4 Pos is all that plus prone.

"Tactical"
Targets (gongs?) at unknown distanges pop up and down randomly. Again, this is a very difficult match to find, and there are few of them.

Benchrest
Shootin' tiny little groups from a bench. Ask Bogie here at TFL.

3 gun
A derivative of IPSC. You shoot pistol, rifle, and shotgun in an action environment.

Air rifle
See Smallbore. Very similar, and again, one of the most demanding.

Go here also: These are some Delphi Forums that deal with HP, Smallbore, and Long Range/Palma. There's more there than the Caifornia page that this will get you to. Don't worry about the geographical area of the forums...we're everywhere. These folks will do all they can to help you find some matches.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/CA_Highpower/start

You may need to register.

Please let me know if I can help you out. I have an excellent HP Primer that a friend wrote if you're interested. I can email it to you.

[Hard_Case]

1. I am not interested in hunting. Just hitting the gong at XXX yards. Not to knock hunting, but I just want to set some criteria for the gun.

No prob. Lots of people out there shoot competitively, long range wise. Guess the first question is, do you have a range nearby that can handle long distances?

2. I want a good out-of-the-box gun. If I had a choice between getting a $1000 gun and getting $1000 of work on it, or getting a $2000 gun and shooting it out of the box, I rather get the $2000 gun. I am considering the Sig rifles (3000, LRS2), Sako, but will consider others. Again, no custom work, just out-of-the-box. Is this doable?

3. I want all top-of-the-line equipment. I hate trying to sell equipment once I grow out of it.

All depends on what you're doing with it. For example, the criteria you set would have much different responses depending on whether xxx = 5-600 yards or xxx = 10-1100 yards. It depends on what you want to do, and just how serious you plan to get. If you're looking for a serious 1000+ platform with the utmost precision (ie - competition level) possible....it's going to be pretty near impossible to walk into a store and do this. You're going to be at the mercy of the Q/C gods on this one. Or, you can bit the bullet (bad pun, I know) and hold out for something like a Winchester M70 Stealth in .308, pair it with a good Leupy, and consider it as a learners platform, for under 2k with rings and optics.

Also, what exactly is wrong about 'custom work'? Custom doesn't always mean 'buy a gun, send it out for a buttload of work, wait forever and pay through the nose'. There are a lot of places that do complete packages of custom work. I've been eyeing a Texas Brigade Armory M40A1, myself. There's others, like GA Precision, Iron Brigade Armory. You get a complete rifle system, all you need in one box and it's all been finely tuned. And it's within the upper ranges of your budget (base GA Precision rifle is 2100 w/o optics, TBA's M40's run 2050 for the A1 and 2150 for the A2/A3, all w/o optics). IMHO, YMMV, et al.....if you really want TOP of the line for distance, custom is the way to go.

4. Do I NEED to reload? How far will over-the-counter ammo get me? If so, will a Dillon 650 do, or I hear rifle guys talking about RCBS loaders, is one better than the other?

NEED? No. You don't NEED to reload. You probably will end up anyway. I think it's a Q/C issue once again. When you reload, you are pretty much in control of the quality of the final product, you can be as anal as you can afford, and it will help with your shooting. Plus, you can work with your platform and develop what load works best for it....to a much greater degree than factory ammo. In a way it's kinda like buying a suit. Buy off the rack, and you'll have a good suit that'll fit nice. Get it custom tailored to you, and you'll have a great looking and very well fitting suit.

5. I am interested in the Leupy 4-14x50 scope but will consider others. I hear US Optics and Swarovski are good. Your thoughts?

You get what you pay for, I guess. I've heard Swarovski has excellent glass, but I've never really researched them. The nice thing about USO is they pretty much custom build their scopes to your specs. Some people like them very much, others do not. Downside is the turnaround time is not short, and they will cost you a pretty chunk of change (I've known folks who've spent as much money on a USO scope as you've budgeted for your entire system....IIRC their 'M40' scope sold at $2500).

However, Leupy is a fine choice all around, and a great place to start from. Plus, they seem to be, albeit slowly, addressing some core issues shooters have with their scopes, which shows they do care about their customers. Premiere reticles is supposed to carry some of their new scopes, with the redesigned cams.

6. The shooting itself--should I teach myself, or get an instructor?

Why not both? There are a number of technical books that can teach you the skills....try on your own, and if you can't seem to get to the kind of accuracy you hope for, then start looking for a course. I'm kinda biased, but I'd poke around www.snipercountry.com. They've got reviews of a number of precision rifle courses, and a dumpload of info on distance shooting in general.....as well as more complete and precise answers to most of the questions you've asked.

7. What caliber is the best starter caliber? I would like to work up to .338. SHould i start with .308 and work up to .300 Win Mag?

Starter caliber, if you're not familiar with shooting rifles in this manner, I'd say the .308. You don't get the kick of other calibers, like the .300, and it's still fairly accurate to the long distances. If you can handle the added recoil, then start higher.....but I'm a cautious cat, so I'd stick to the .308.

It's a semi-custom job, but the 6.5x284 seems to be gaining popularity....get's the distance of the larger calibers but without the recoil.

8. I have an M1A SCOUT (shorty) that I barely know...should i learn to shoot 100, 200, 300, 600 with iron sights before I move up to a scoped bolt rifle? How about getting the aforementioned massive scope for the M1A and learning to do it there before I move up to a $3000 bolt gun?

That's not a bad idea at all, IMHO. If your M1A can shoot those dstances, it's a good place to start. You don't spend a ton of money, but you can still learn the basis of techniques for long range shooting. Plus, the more you learn about shooting the distances, the more insight you gain into future equipment purchases.

Yes, what Steve said.

I am not sure where in California Skunkabilly resides, but the desert reference implies southern. Those of us north of I-80 would go to Nevada for desert.

I shoot at a reduced range highpower match in Nevada City (that's California). There are also matches in Lincoln, and south of Sacramento, at Sac Valley Shooting Center, although I have not been to these. Sac Valley also has tactical rifle matches, and who knows what else, at their facility, which has ranges to 1000 yards. I need to go there one day. I also need to shoot a real highpower course one day, or at least try the longer ranges.

I have not seen an M1a Scout at a match, but I have seen SKS's and AK-type rifles, and a guy shooting a .22 Hornet bolt gun. They tell me lever guns show up from time to time. Kindof hard to do the reload in rapid fire (10 rounds with a mandatory reolad in 60 or 70 seconds, depending on the position). So, an M1a Scout might not be ideal for highpower, but it is not far off.

As for reloading, ammunition gets expensive if you are seriously competing. Highpower does not require the accuracy of benchrest, so factory is ok, but it will get expensive. Some shooters use surplus 5.56 or 7.62 NATO, but the top shooters (I have seen) reload or use factory match ammo.

Competition keeps me honest. Those one or two flyers during practice always get worse when the clock is running and the scores are being tallied. I am a better shooter because of it. Not always happier, but better.

Lee

[El Rojo]

Hey Skunk, I sent you an e-mail. Let me know what you want to do.

[Bogie]

Well, $2K will get you a benchrest rifle. It'll cost about another $2K for all the other attendant crapola you'll need.

Then you need a truck...

I'm NOT kidding.

I'm assuming that what you want is a "good accurate rifle." Here's what I'd do: I'd get a donor Remington 700 with a .308-size boltface, and send the action off to a guy like Billy Stevens, Speedy Gonzales or Jim Borden. Have him clean it up and put a match grade barrel of a calibre you can live with on it (.308 is good to start with), stick it in one of Kelly McMillan's stocks, and then have some fun. Keep in mind that you can switch barrels (at $400 each, assuming match-grade chambered by a match-grade gunsmith) to different calibres, as long as they use the same boltface, so you can also have a .22-250, a .7/08, a .270, etc... My switch-barrel rifle shoots .22PPC, 6PPC and 6BR, and I've been thinking of getting a 6/284 barrel for it...