Massad Ayoob's LFI-2 and LFI-3 courses

[Preacherman]

Hello, shooting friends. I just completed Massad Ayoob's LFI-2 and LFI-3 courses in August at Dunbarton, NH, and thought some of you might like to read about them.

Mas says bluntly that LFI's courses are NOT shooting courses as such, but rather "Lethal Threat Management For Civilians". He covers the whole gamut of legal, political, social and psycho/physiological issues before, during and after a defensive situation; goes into depth about actual case histories, both the event and the aftermath (particularly in court, with the arguments used to prosecute and defend the shooter); and covers a whole bunch of material which no other school, in my experience, even begins to deal with. I'm personally sold on the concept. Mas does recommend other schools for more specifically shooting-oriented training: at his recommendation, I've been to Thunder Ranch (twice) and Chapman Academy for their Advanced Course, and have benefited greatly from both. However, I'm very pleased that I did my first Level 3 course with Mas - it was an eye-opener!

To recap LFI-1 (which I did in 1999) for those who don't know it: it covers the basic issues of lawful defensive use of lethal force, with a great deal of "shoot/don't shoot" scenarios, legal issues, and basic training drills. The shooting component is usually 400-500 rounds, and covers basic skills and a few interesting drills like the "Blind Swordsman", which really opens your eyes to the importance of basic technique as the foundation for all future skill development.

On LFI-2, we started with repeating the LFI-1 qualifier course, to get us "back in the groove" of shooting. Over the next few days, we shot from prone, while moving, on steel, on paper, etc. We also shot over 100 rounds of shotgun, using different weapons (both semi-auto and pump) at varying ranges, on both speed and accuracy drills. There was a good deal of classroom work on more in-depth analysis of legal and psycho/physiological aspects of the use of lethal force for self-defence. We concluded with the LFI-1 qualification drill, for the record, at double speed. Challenging! The shooting was complicated by record high temperatures in NH that week: we got sloppy due to heat fatigue, and Mas had to jump on us about this. (He can be very rude indeed - and VERY LOUD! - about safety violations, I'm pleased to report! I certainly felt in good hands as far as safety was concerned, on both this and LFI-3: they're the only courses where I've seen instructors physically jump in to restrain a student who made a mistake, and help him to get more co-ordinated on safety issues. Very direct, sometimes very blunt, but very encouraging from a safety perspective.)

To me, the single most valuable part of the course was the weapon retention and disarmament drills. It's a great confidence-builder to practice techniques that will enable you to peel an attacker off your gun, and/or disarm him (if he's close enough) before he's able to pull the trigger. I had always been sceptical about such techniques (regarding them as Hollywood hype, I guess), but Mas would have us hold a gun on him (in his back, for example - using dummy guns, of course!) and tell us to yell "Bang!" as soon as we felt or saw him move... Needless to say, by the time we spoke, he'd already moved himself and our gun out of alignment, and could usually have the gun away from us in less than a second from starting to move. Very impressive indeed! - and very useful stuff to know in a hard place... We also did a couple of hours drill with handcuffs. Mas explained that if we had called 911 for help, and only one policeman arrived, we might have to assist him dealing with multiple suspects, and we'd better know what to do in such a situation. He didn't give us full law enforcement-type training with cuffs, but just a couple of basic techniques that would allow us to do the necessary without putting ourselves or a partner at risk. Worthwhile knowledge.

A very interesting, and intense, drill was when we were told to hold a suspect at gunpoint for an indeterminate period while waiting for cops to arrive. The "suspects" were, of course, targets - but the fun part was that while half the class "held" the "suspects" at gunpoint, they were heckled by the other half, who were told to be as difficult, rude and obnoxious as they liked. The object of the exercise was to learn how to keep one's cool, and maintain control of the situation, despite a barrage of insults and wierd reactions from the suspect. This was TOUGH! - particularly when Mas would fire shots unexpectedly, trying to get us to fire by sympathetic reflex, or someone would shout "SHOOT!" in our ear, trying for the same reaction. After a tough 15-20 minutes, the hecklers got to try their hand at the same exercise, with the shooters from the first round now in heckling mode in their turn. (Revenge is sweet!) All in all, this was a very sobering introduction to the problems that many have faced with intruders - particularly those on drugs, who aren't thinking straight, and whose reactions are unpredictable. If I have to hold someone like this at gunpoint for any length of time, I think I'll be much better prepared for it now.

LFI-3 is much more about fast, stressful situations. Virtually every course of fire is a law enforcement qualification of some kind, shot for score and against the clock. All students are told to bring a bunch of $1 and $5 bills each day, and before firing each round, everyone coughs up a buck or more into a common pool. The winner of each round takes the pot. We shot New Hampshire, P.O.S.T., and FBI qualifications with handgun and shotgun, at varying speeds, and did some long-range work with both weapons (out to 100 yards). Mas also entered the entire class (without warning us beforehand!) in the New England IDPA regional championships, which we shot on the morning of the last day of the course. Most of us had never shot any kind of competition before, so this was a real eye-opener! I plan on joining an IDPA club as soon as I can find one close enough to allow me to participate regularly - this was a fun experience...

The LFI-3 qualification is the same as for LFI-1 and -2, but at triple speed - which REALLY stretches one's capabilities... We actually shot it twice: once at triple speed, trying for maximum score, and once at maximum speed, trying only to stay on the paper and make minimum qualification score of 75%. I won the triple-speed qualification with a score of just over 90%, but was pipped on the max-speed run by the only lady in the class, who scored five points less than me, but did so three seconds faster than I did. I was two seconds outside quintuple-speed, she was one second inside the mark. Both of us made the 75% cut-off at that speed.

The shotgun work was also very interesting, particularly comparing pump-action to semi-auto for defensive use. I had always preferred pump-actions for reliability, although conceding that semi-auto's were faster in operation. This was amply borne out on both LFI-2 and LFI-3, especially the higher-speed runs in the latter course. Literally every semi-auto shotgun on the course (ranging from Benellis, Remingtons and Mossbergs to a magazine-fed Saiga AK clone) suffered one or more malfunctions, taking the weapon down during a course of fire. My reservations about their reliability were amply confirmed! (The sandy shooting range was a real problem in this regard, with dirt getting in the actions.) Pump guns were far more reliable, PROVIDED THAT the operators didn't short-stroke them under the stress of high-speed drills. This particular failure was very common. Mas observes that a competent shotgunner with a semi-auto weapon should be able to get five rounds of buckshot into a standard target at 7 yards in one second or less, and a competent pump-gunner should do the same in 2 seconds or less. On LFI-3, we were challenged to meet this standard. The fastest semi-auto shooter managed it in 1.67 seconds, and the fastest pump-gunner (yes, it was me!) managed 2.03 seconds with an 870. Fun stuff!

We did a great deal of weapon-retention and disarming technique work as well. This was basically repeating what we'd learned in LFI-2, plus a few new moves, but at higher speed and with more "polish". We ended the course with four hours of Kubotan instruction. The Kubotan is a small pen-size instrument which is used for what are called "pain compliance techniques" - and boy, do they hurt! Mas deliberately left this part of the training until we'd finished shooting the IDPA championship, as he warned us that our hands and wrists would be very sore afterwards. He was right! The Kubotan is an amazingly versatile instrument for compliance holds, strikes, and other moves.

One completes LFI-3 with three certificates: one for the course, one in weapon retention, and one for the Kubotan. I'm very pleased to have attended this and LFI-2, and feel that I certainly got my money's worth out of them. I still wish that other schools would incorporate some of Mas Ayoob's legal and other material into their instruction. I know any number of really good shooters who've graduated from Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, and such schools, but who rely solely on their weapons skills in a defensive situation. Mas gives so much more background stuff, and so many other, non-gun-oriented defensive techniques and skills, that I believe his students are much better equipped for the overall defensive environment than are those who have only gun knowledge to bring to the table. All in all, a great way to spend my summer vacation!

(MORE BELOW - SEE 2 POSTS DOWN.)

[KSFreeman]

Good to hear, Preacherman. There are plenty of sword skuls, only LFI provides the shield. Need them both.

[Preacherman]

A couple of points I didn't mention in the first post, due to the size restriction.

Firstly, we covered low-light shooting, traveling to an indoor range in Manchester, NH to do so (there were restrictions on night shooting at Dunbarton, as the range is surrounded by residential areas). All the standard flashlight/handgun positions and techniques were covered - those of you who've done this stuff at other schools would find nothing new here.

We also had a REALLY fun afternoon on the second-last afternoon of LFI-3 - the full-auto shoot! We were provided with a couple of M-14's, a Steyr AUG, a CAR-15, an Uzi, an MP-5, an M-3 grease gun, and a couple of other full-auto weapons, and invited to amuse ourselves. There was, of course, instruction in how to use the weapons, including Stressfire techniques for controlling even the most powerful shoulder-fired weapons in full-auto mode: but most of us just enjoyed ourselves!

We also had the opportunity to shoot a Barrett .50 BMG sniper rifle, which had come back from Desert Storm and been refurbished. This was great fun, although the scope was calibrated from 500 to 2,000 yards, and we didn't have anything like that long a range available! A steel plate was set up at 100 yards, and every time it was hit, a perfect little mushroom cloud of hot white smoke ascended lazily... The muzzle blast from this cannon was really bad, and we had to use double hearing protection (plugs and muffs) if we wanted to stand anywhere nearby when it was fired. A very impressive weapon indeed.

Again, two great courses, and I heartily recommend them to anyone interested in the overall defensive environment.

[RAY WOODROW 3RD]

What does each of the courses cost? How much ammo did you need for each? How long was each course?

Inquiring minds want to know!

[pdmoderator]

What does each of the courses cost? How much ammo did you need for each? How long was each course?

http://www.ayoob.com/lfi96.html

LFI I: $700, don't know, 40 hours.
LFI II: $800, don't know, 40 hours.
LFI III: $900, don't know, 40 hours.

You will need one of the following:

A letter of reference from a local official, i.e., Chief of Police, Sheriff, District Attorney, Judge, Etc.

A letter from a practicing attorney stating that you have no police record or history of institutionalization mental health care.

Proof of occupation in the law enforcement field.

A concealed carry permit or federal firearms license.

Maybe he'd take a NJ FID as proof of non-craziness, since there's a psychiatric search involved. (At least it's proof of willingness to submit to bureaucratic baloney... )

- pdmoderator

[Preacherman]

Hi, Ray. To answer your questions:

1. Cost: As I recall, the LFI-2 course was $800.00, and LFI-3 was $900.00. Check current pricing and details on Mas' Web site, www.ayoob.com.

2. Ammunition: We were asked to bring 500 rounds handgun and 100 rounds shotgun (90 slug, 10 buckshot) for LFI-2, and "at least" 500 rounds handgun and 100 shotgun slug for LFI-3, plus additional ammo. in 9mm., .45 ACP, .223 and .308 for the full-auto section of the latter course. Most of us ended up exceeding the limits for both courses: I had fortunately brought along extra ammo., and was passing it out to other students by the end of each week! I used about 1,300 rounds of handgun and close to 250 rounds of shotgun ammo. during the two weeks, plus another 250 rounds or so in various calibers on the full-auto stage. (Something one doesn't often think about: most of one's time in full-auto firing is spent refilling magazines, rather than shooting! Another interesting point: I use CCI Blazer for training ammo., but this was not allowed in most of the pistol-caliber full-auto weapons, as the aluminum case is apparently unable to handle the impact of a slamming bolt in full-auto fire without rupturing - at least, that's the policy of the Department that furnished the weapons. For this reason, those of us with Blazer ammo. had to swap it for other, brass-cased ammo. before shooting these weapons.)

3. Duration: Both courses lasted a week, Monday through Friday. The pre-course literature said that they would run from 9 to 5 each day, but in practice, this was too short: we often finished up towards or even after 6 p.m.

Another point about equipment: we were asked to bring heavy-duty working gloves (not shooting gloves) to both courses. I didn't understand the reason for this at first, but after the first session of weapon-retention training, all was made clear! The dummy weapons used in this training are made of aluminum or plastic, and they can be very rough on bare skin during a fast, violent disarmament or retention technique. The gloves are indispensable for this training. They were not used for the Kubotan training in LFI-3, though, as the instrument is small, and will normally be used ungloved in emergencies, so one has to learn to use it that way. Ouch!

[David Park]

Thanks for the review. I had hoped to be at LFI-II in Richmond this week, but paying the rent took priority. I was looking forward to the retention/disarm training.

[jawper]

I just returned from LFI-2 in Richmond and can second most, if not all, of the opinions offered by The Preacherman. Although the temperature was high, we had a good crew and a great group of instructors. I'll be heading down for LFI-3 next year if Mas comes this way.

I will add that we had two autogunners break the 1.0 second mark. The fastest was a 60-year old retired psychologist with only 20% vision in his left eye who ran five rounds of full house buck into the target at 7 yards in 0.80 seconds. One pump gunner broke 2 seconds with an old Remmington Model 31 that appeared to have been lubricated with gravel. Very impressive performances from non-professionals.

The best performance on the LFI pistol qualifier was put in by a Petersburg Police officer shooting his issue S&W .40 cal autoloader out of a hooded Safariland retention holster (not sure which model - you had to dance a jig to get the pistol loose). He shot a 292 out of 300 at double speed. Damned impressive.

As with LFI-1, LFI-2 left me with strong personal reminders of the holes in my personal inventory of skills and a head start on how to rectify those deficiencies. The stuff I already knew how to do was brought to a finer point and additional options were learned. Simply outstanding training.

David Park - Very sorry you did not make it. It would have been nice to say hello again. The course was well worth the trip. If he comes to Richmond again next year, perhaps we can road trip down together. Hope that the CZ is working out for you.

[buzz_knox]

I also had the opportunity to attend LFI-2 in Richmond and can second the comments on the class in general and the Sep. 2-6 class specifically. I will admit to having some trepidation about the course when I first heard about it, because it was not touted as a shooting class. Well, that "criticism" was right and wrong. LFI-2 assumes that you know how to shoot (after LFI-1, you should). It now starts to teach you how to fight and survive. Wounded officer drills, mirror image, CQB and, most importantly, weapons retention/disarm techniques are all part of the course. While I would have enjoyed more trigger time, I wouldn't have had it any other way. I can shoot at the range whenever I care to; I don't get much of an opportunity to learn how to fight.

As the shotgun record, it was actually .88 seconds, bro. I will remember always, because Doc beat me by .02 seconds. Crap! And he did it with a Jungle Gun as opposed to the tricked out (and absolutely sweet) 1187P you were kind enough to let me borrow.

After reviewing the original post again, I wanted to make one other comment about Mas' dedication to safety. He will kick you off the range for a muzzle violation. In fact, a friend of mine got booted the second or third day because of fatigue leading to a brain fart and dropped muzzle. However, once that happens, the incident is forgotten unless you do it again (at which point you're gone for good). Mas cuts no slack on safety, but he also understands how things happen well enough not to hold a temporary lapse in judgment against you. On that note, I was saved from a muzzle violation during the qual by our own jawper, who reminded me (rather forcefully) about my muzzle, which was wandering dangerously close to another shooter due to fatigue and adrenaline during the qual.

[jawper]

Not to get into a love fest regarding Mas, but BuzzKnox raises a very important point about range safety at LFI. Mas makes it clear that the laser beam rule is in effect at all times (ALL times). A single infraction, even for a split second results in you becoming an observer for the duration of the day. And I do mean even for a split second. The instructor cadre watches the class like protective hawks. A bark of “muzzle” or “finger on frame!” greets any deviation. A second violation equals your being excused from the class. No excuses, no debate, no refund. This is, in my not-so-humble opinion, EXACTLY as it should be.

I have been to other “name brand” classes where the safety rules are not so rigorously enforced. While I will certainly not claim that those schools were “dangerous”, I appreciate the iron handed approach. It’s healthy in every way. As an example, when we worked on shooting on the move, there were three instructors moving with the student (all wearing armor). One watched the gun, ready to neutralize it in case of a fall. One watched the student, ready to keep him/her from getting in the way of the muzzle in case they lost control of their gun. The third managed the entire dance. Overkill? Nope. These are freaking guns!

On the last day of class, we happened to share the range for about an hour with some LEOs whose safety practices were quite honestly frightening (the LEO member of our class literally placed a berm between himself and these other officers). It was a strong reminder that complacency and/or lack of sufficient safety training is a serious hazard to those who habitually handle firearms. In his excellent article in the current issue of SWAT magazine, Pat Rogers puts it perfectly when he quotes Giles Stock, “You have to work hard at not having a negligent discharge”. These are sage words indeed.

BuzzKnox himself, after a long afternoon session working on retention/disarm techniques with dummy guns, went so far as to disassemble his Glock when he felt he had gotten too much in the habit of pointing gun-shaped things at people. I thought that decision showed great wisdom and self-awareness. It was an impressive example of common sense. In a week long class on threat management, these first-hand safety lessons were among the most valuable.

Please pardon me if this missive was a bit preachy. I mean no disrespect.

[David Park]

Wow, sorry I missed seeing some fellow TFLers at the class. I think I was the only one last year, since the only comments on my MOLON LABE hat were from people asking what it meant. I'll have to set up an LFI savings account to be ready for next year.

BTW, I was working the VCDL booth at the Harrisonburg gun show on Saturday, and I saw a guy that looked a lot like Mas browsing the tables. I can't think of any reason why he would have been there, though.

[Cowdogpete]

I've never attended one of Mas Ayoob's schools but have done Gunsite, Thunder Ranch and Powderhorn Ranch.

Of them all Powderhorn sounds alot like Mas's class. In depth legal and case study. As much attention was given to unarmed defensive situations as was to armed. The armed portion also took in edged weapons, shot gun, pistol, and impact weapons. Also eapons retention and disarming, and pressure point control.
He also spent a lot of time talking baout post traumatic response, both what to expect will happen to you and what the cops are going to do when they arrive on the scene.

I can attest to the fact that Powderhorn Ranch will make you a better tactical shooter and a better chance of surviving a real threat than either of the big name schools. Greg Williams and his crew are amazing.

Check it out on the web at Powderhorn Ranch
Click the "Specialized Training" link and the "Edge Instructors" link.

His costs are listed and may seem high until you figure that he has on site lodging and three spectacular meals every day. And all instructors remain on site with you through out the week. They eat with you and are available all the time for any questions or one on one time.

Check it out.