Front Sight ....... strongarm tactics

NMGlocker · November 4, 2002, 03:39 PM

It seems Front Sight FTI is a bit sensitive to its association with Scientology being aired on a popular internet bulletin board.
Looks like a business that deserves to get flushed down the toilet. How can you be a proponent of the second amendment, when you try to strongarm people out of their first amendment rights?

http://glocktalk.com/announcement.php?s=&forumid=19

Quote:

Hi folks. I recently received a certified letter, from Front Sight Firearms Training Institute's lawyer, concerning negative posts made on Glock Talk. In addition to wanting me to ban an individual that made allegations against them, the message threatened legal action against this site if I didn't 'Carefully check posts in the future concerning Front Site'.

Gorthaur · November 4, 2002, 04:28 PM

http://www.dianahsieh.com/scientology/

Jim March · November 4, 2002, 04:47 PM

That is RIGHT out of the Scientology legal affairs playbook. To a "T".

Psycho cultists with a history of leaving a bodycount behind=bad. Heavily armed version of same=badder.

Scientology: the only "religion" to date that can make an otherwise decent actor dress up as an 8-ft-tall Goth Rastafarian

.

CavVet · November 4, 2002, 04:57 PM

First Alladin, now Frontsight. I let dr pizza know he wont be getting any of my money when I come back to Vega$.....

Threatning Eric at Golcktalk was not nice....firing line next? arfcom?

Smith and Wesson....

K-Mart....

Aladdin Hotel....

Frontsight.....

My money goes where its deserved, not just because you have what I want/need. Free market ALWAYS supplies options....

**Rich Lucibella** · November 4, 2002, 05:57 PM

Now hear this:

Your posts at TFL are your responsibility. That said, I will NOT remove any post here, short of a Court Order, unless it violates Forum Policy or known laws.

TFL is not GlockTalk and I'm not trying to keep up with the mounting medical bills faced by Eric. Mr Piazza has already been provided address for service to TFL in regards to a related threat. If he chooses to continue his actions against those who take issue with his operation, he may have at it.

If HCI couldn't shut us down, I doubt Naish (or any related organization) has the resolve to do so.
Rich

Pendragon · November 4, 2002, 05:57 PM

I agree with Jim, this is classic Scientology material.

They use the legal system to intimidate people with the threat of a lawsuit.

Unfortunately, it often works because most people prize their money above their autonomy and soverignty.

In this case, we have a business that operates within a specific subculture here in the US.

I would think that FSI Would need to watch their step at this point.

Coverage and publicity of the lawsuit would make FSI look like major whiny baby but losers.

dZ · November 4, 2002, 06:23 PM

http://www.xenu.net/
Operation Clambake

JasonReed · November 4, 2002, 06:26 PM

Impressive stand Rich.

rtr · November 4, 2002, 06:57 PM

I'm curious what the entire content of said "certified letter" is.

I admire your stand on this issue Rich.

rock_jock · November 4, 2002, 07:10 PM

I have very strong religious convictions and definite opinions about Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard. That said, I also realize that a very sizable percentage, (possibly or probably the majority) of gunowners and especially many members of TFL do not share my religious convictions. Which, of course, is perfectly fine since this site is dedicated to our mutual enthusiasm for firearms and related political issues. I am glad the information concerning a possible link between the founder of Front Site and Scientology has come to my attention. When considered alone, I doubt it would influence my decision to attend, as it is considered a fine teaching institute and it appears that religion is not pushed on its students. However, when someone starts threatening lawsuits to quash folks 1st Amendment rights, the issue ceases to be one of religion and becomes one of liberty. This WILL in fact influence my decision on where to attend shooting schools. Furthermore, I will pass this information on to interested others.

Newcop · November 4, 2002, 07:11 PM

Admire your stance.

I was thinking about going their. FS will never get a cent of my money.

rtr · November 4, 2002, 07:21 PM

I agree rock_jock, I don't care what religion anyone is, it doesn't enter into my decisionmaking process about patronizing their business. However, when a business strongarms people such as Rich or Eric from Glocktalk and in the process attempts to silence our 1st amendment rights, I sure as hell won't patronize their business (even though I really want to take their 4 day handgun class and got a cert really cheap, if they don't remedy this situation properly, or explain it to my satisfaction, I will not go to their school).

**Marko Kloos** · November 4, 2002, 07:57 PM

I have an intense dislike for bullies. I don't care if they use bats, knives, guns, or lawyers to get their way.

NMGlocker · November 4, 2002, 09:41 PM

Quote:

I don't care what religion anyone is, it doesn't enter into my decisionmaking process about patronizing their business. However, when a business strongarms people such as Rich or Eric from Glocktalk and in the process attempts to silence our 1st amendment rights, I sure as hell won't patronize their business

EXACTLY the reason I posted this.
I avoided completely the discussion about Scientology and Front Sight over at GlockTalk, because I really don't give a FF what religion you are or are not.
But when they threaten people with lawsuits over first amendment issues, screw 'em.

Preacherman · November 4, 2002, 09:56 PM

Apparently Front Sight isn't only suing (or threatening to sue) Glocktalk: they're also allegedly suing Diana Hsieh, who posted a great deal of information about the Front Sight/Scientology connection on her Web site (http://www.dianahsieh.com).

Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to point out a classic example of the "shotgun" school of problem-solving, versus the "rifle" school. The "shotgun" school fires projectiles in vast numbers all over the landscape, in the hope that some of them will connect. The "rifle" school takes careful aim at a predetermined target, and fires a precisely-directed round that will have the desired effect, without spraying lead all over the place. In the light of Scientology's long-demonstrated technique of suing everybody and anybody whom they consider a threat, and the apparent similarity of Front Sight's response to those involved in the recent fuss, would anybody care to venture a suggestion as to which "problem-solving school" both of these entities fall into???

Hardtarget · November 4, 2002, 10:04 PM

Rich...stick to your guns! ( as if you need to hear that from me)
Mark.

Glen R · November 4, 2002, 10:54 PM

FSI is foolish if they think this is going to help. I could care less about their religion, but trying to mop out talk about their program on a site that isn't theirs is not right.

We should all send them an email and let them know how we feel: info@frontsight.com

Regards,
Glen

**Rich Lucibella** · November 4, 2002, 11:07 PM

Let me make this clear. It's not about Scientology for us. I couldn't care less if the owners of FrontSight dress in grass skirts, worship trees or share Mantras. What does matter to me is the attempt to prevent shooters from communicating with shooters: their experience, their analysis and, yes, their opinions.

When you do that, in a venue where you're allowed equal time for response, you've crossed to the other side of the barricade....no matter what you teach.

If this type of open, civil discussion offends any student, trainer, afficianado or friend of FrontSight, they are welcome to post opposing views. If, on the other hand, they choose to use the types of tactics that have been used against GlockTalk, Scientologist "allies" in tow or not, all I can say is, Pack a Box Lunch....It's Gonna Be a Real Long Day.

Respectfully-
Rich Lucibella

rock_jock · November 4, 2002, 11:14 PM

GlenR,

Good suggestion. I sent them an email this evening.

Archer1440 · November 4, 2002, 11:23 PM

I would be disinclined to directly communicate with anyone who threatens and carries forth lawsuits to prevent individuals from exercising their First Amendment rights.

Tort reform anyone ??

**Mike Irwin** · November 5, 2002, 12:14 AM

Didn't this crop up a few weeks ago in a similar vein, but draw a response from someone who apparently was a Scientology attorney?

Or am I out to lunch on that?

kestrou · November 5, 2002, 12:39 AM

This is the part where you all say "Welcome to TFL!" I registered here a while back but haven't posted.

I've been hanging on GlockTalk for 2 years plus and thinking of calling "here" home as a direct result of the contents of this thread.

I've been to FrontSight (thought it was great) and I don't give a damn about what religion anybody is, but I don't take kindly to these kind of strong-arm tactics and I'm sorry Eric at GT has "knuckled under" and is even now deleting threads...

Intelligent readers of GT dismissed the mud-slinging and unfounded rhetoric of a few; but such confirmed heavy-handedness is very unpalatable in and of itself.

FrontSight has only served to "multiply it's enemies", convincing even some supporters such as myself to boycott their establishment in the future.

Well, gotta learn my way around now. Pleasure to meet you all. Happy to hang where men evidently aren't so easily cowed.

kestrou

rock_jock · November 5, 2002, 12:50 AM

Well, let me be the first to say "Welcome to TFL, kestrou"!

**Rich Lucibella** · November 5, 2002, 12:52 AM

Kestrou-
Welcome....and don't think poorly of our Sister Site, GlockTalk. Erick's a brother and a Patriot. I'm sure he did what he had to do.

Mike-
No, you're not having a senior moment. The poster you refer to was danaesq, who is most likely the FrontSight Legal Champion, Dana Morris, a Las Vegas attorney. He was the same poster who defended Front Sight and then intimated no relationship as they were "in a different state" (CA) from him.

I couldn't care less about his religious leanings. Important to me is that he's already proven himself (to me) a foe of the Bill of Rights....But then, other than the truly Pure of Heart, the "vocation" hardly attracts heros.

Here's the Front Sight suits filed (and defended) in Las Vegas (there's more in other counties like Nye.)
Enter Front and Sight for the keywords.
http://courtgate.coca.co.clark.nv.us...ordOptions.asp

Note the FS attorney of record in all cases. Once upon a life, I ran a $160 million dollar a year corporation....health care no less. In ten years, I don't think we had the amount of litigation that Front Sight's had in three! But then, I guess people just pick on success!

Interesting that someone would come to TFL, defend Naish and attempt to distance themselves by pointing out that FrontSight was a CA Corp, while they were wearing their typing fingers raw filing suits in the jurisdiction in question. (What's that filing fee, again? $133.00....ooooh!)

Note also the pattern of the suits....almost all against lone individuals...only one against a formidable corporation. Oops, they lost that one!

Rich

El Rojo · November 5, 2002, 01:31 AM

Rich, you are a true patriot. You impress me more and more. Ask my wife what she thinks about TFL. It is now as much a part of my life as anything else. I think the way this place is run is a reason why.

November 4, 2002, 04:28 PM	#2
Gorthaur Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2000 Posts: 851	http://www.dianahsieh.com/scientology/ __________________ 911 - Gov't-sponsored dial-a-prayer! Support the US Olympic Shooting Team! Protect your Right to Keep and Bear Arms!

November 4, 2002, 04:47 PM	#3
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 4,695	That is RIGHT out of the Scientology legal affairs playbook. To a "T". Psycho cultists with a history of leaving a bodycount behind=bad. Heavily armed version of same=badder. Scientology: the only "religion" to date that can make an otherwise decent actor dress up as an 8-ft-tall Goth Rastafarian . __________________ Jim March

November 4, 2002, 04:57 PM	#4
CavVet Member Join Date: May 21, 2001 Location: Seattle, USA Posts: 43	Wearin my email to Vega$ out....... First Alladin, now Frontsight. I let dr pizza know he wont be getting any of my money when I come back to Vega$..... Threatning Eric at Golcktalk was not nice....firing line next? arfcom? Smith and Wesson.... K-Mart.... Aladdin Hotel.... Frontsight..... My money goes where its deserved, not just because you have what I want/need. Free market ALWAYS supplies options....

November 4, 2002, 05:57 PM	#5
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 9,998	*Now hear this:* Your posts at TFL are your responsibility. That said, I will NOT remove any post here, short of a Court Order, unless it violates Forum Policy or known laws. TFL is not GlockTalk and I'm not trying to keep up with the mounting medical bills faced by Eric. Mr Piazza has already been provided address for service to TFL in regards to a related threat. If he chooses to continue his actions against those who take issue with his operation, he may have at it. If HCI couldn't shut us down, I doubt Naish (or any related organization) has the resolve to do so. Rich __________________ *TheFiringLine.com* More Signal, Less Noise.....please

November 4, 2002, 06:23 PM	#7
dZ Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: the Fetid Swamp, DC Posts: 7,565	http://www.xenu.net/ Operation Clambake __________________ "O tell the Lacedomecians to damn the torpedoes." BOTR, Chapter V: Some Monsters

November 4, 2002, 05:57 PM	#6
Pendragon Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2001 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 1,160	I agree with Jim, this is classic Scientology material. They use the legal system to intimidate people with the threat of a lawsuit. Unfortunately, it often works because most people prize their money above their autonomy and soverignty. In this case, we have a business that operates within a specific subculture here in the US. I would think that FSI Would need to watch their step at this point. Coverage and publicity of the lawsuit would make FSI look like major whiny baby but losers.

November 4, 2002, 06:26 PM	#8
JasonReed Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 92	Impressive stand Rich.

November 4, 2002, 06:57 PM	#9
rtr Member Join Date: September 13, 2002 Posts: 20	I'm curious what the entire content of said "certified letter" is. I admire your stand on this issue Rich.

November 4, 2002, 07:10 PM	#10
rock_jock Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2000 Location: SE Texas Posts: 1,789	I have very strong religious convictions and definite opinions about Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard. That said, I also realize that a very sizable percentage, (possibly or probably the majority) of gunowners and especially many members of TFL do not share my religious convictions. Which, of course, is perfectly fine since this site is dedicated to our mutual enthusiasm for firearms and related political issues. I am glad the information concerning a possible link between the founder of Front Site and Scientology has come to my attention. When considered alone, I doubt it would influence my decision to attend, as it is considered a fine teaching institute and it appears that religion is not pushed on its students. However, when someone starts threatening lawsuits to quash folks 1st Amendment rights, the issue ceases to be one of religion and becomes one of liberty. This WILL in fact influence my decision on where to attend shooting schools. Furthermore, I will pass this information on to interested others.

November 4, 2002, 07:11 PM	#11
Newcop Junior Member Join Date: September 18, 2001 Location: CA, USA Posts: 6	Admire your stance. I was thinking about going their. FS will never get a cent of my money. Last edited by Newcop; November 4, 2002 at 07:58 PM.

November 4, 2002, 07:21 PM	#12
rtr Member Join Date: September 13, 2002 Posts: 20	I agree rock_jock, I don't care what religion anyone is, it doesn't enter into my decisionmaking process about patronizing their business. However, when a business strongarms people such as Rich or Eric from Glocktalk and in the process attempts to silence our 1st amendment rights, I sure as hell won't patronize their business (even though I really want to take their 4 day handgun class and got a cert really cheap, if they don't remedy this situation properly, or explain it to my satisfaction, I will not go to their school).

November 4, 2002, 07:57 PM	#13
Marko Kloos Staff Lead Join Date: January 12, 2000 Location: Enfield, NH Posts: 5,448	I have an intense dislike for bullies. I don't care if they use bats, knives, guns, or lawyers to get their way. __________________ "The right to buy weapons is the right to be free." --A.E. Van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher the munchkin wrangler.

November 4, 2002, 09:56 PM	#15
Preacherman Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2002 Posts: 795	BREAKING NEWS... Apparently Front Sight isn't only suing (or threatening to sue) Glocktalk: they're also allegedly suing Diana Hsieh, who posted a great deal of information about the Front Sight/Scientology connection on her Web site (http://www.dianahsieh.com). Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to point out a classic example of the "shotgun" school of problem-solving, versus the "rifle" school. The "shotgun" school fires projectiles in vast numbers all over the landscape, in the hope that some of them will connect. The "rifle" school takes careful aim at a predetermined target, and fires a precisely-directed round that will have the desired effect, without spraying lead all over the place. In the light of Scientology's long-demonstrated technique of suing everybody and anybody whom they consider a threat, and the apparent similarity of Front Sight's response to those involved in the recent fuss, would anybody care to venture a suggestion as to which "problem-solving school" both of these entities fall into???

November 4, 2002, 10:04 PM	#16
Hardtarget Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2001 Location: Nashville, Tn. Posts: 684	Rich...stick to your guns! ( as if you need to hear that from me) Mark. __________________ ...even a blind hog finds an acorn every once in a while.

November 4, 2002, 10:54 PM	#17
Glen R Member Join Date: October 4, 2002 Location: Metro Detroit Posts: 44	FSI is foolish if they think this is going to help. I could care less about their religion, but trying to mop out talk about their program on a site that isn't theirs is not right. We should all send them an email and let them know how we feel: info@frontsight.com Regards, Glen

November 4, 2002, 11:07 PM	#18
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 9,998	Let me make this clear. It's not about Scientology for us. I couldn't care less if the owners of FrontSight dress in grass skirts, worship trees or share Mantras. What *does* matter to me is the attempt to prevent shooters from communicating with shooters: their experience, their analysis and, yes, their *opinions. When you do that, in a venue where you're allowed equal time for response, you've crossed to the other side of the barricade....no matter what you teach. If this type of open, civil discussion offends any* student, trainer, afficianado or friend of FrontSight, they are welcome to post opposing views. If, on the other hand, they choose to use the types of tactics that have been used against GlockTalk, Scientologist "allies" in tow or not, all I can say is, Pack a Box Lunch....It's Gonna Be a Real Long Day. Respectfully- Rich Lucibella __________________ *TheFiringLine.com* More Signal, Less Noise.....please

November 4, 2002, 11:14 PM	#19
rock_jock Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2000 Location: SE Texas Posts: 1,789	GlenR, Good suggestion. I sent them an email this evening.

November 4, 2002, 11:23 PM	#20
Archer1440 Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2001 Location: USA Posts: 514	I would be disinclined to directly communicate with anyone who threatens and carries forth lawsuits to prevent individuals from exercising their First Amendment rights. Tort reform anyone ?? __________________ "Well, we know what motivates the hoplophobe. He simply envies the man who can cope where he, the hoplophobe, cannot. A skilled, armed man lives on a plane of security and contentment different from that of others. This is not egalitarian! The man who cannot cut it, envies, fears, and sometimes hates the man who can." – Jeff Cooper Last edited by Archer1440; November 5, 2002 at 12:29 AM.

November 5, 2002, 12:14 AM	#21
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 21,165	Didn't this crop up a few weeks ago in a similar vein, but draw a response from someone who apparently was a Scientology attorney? Or am I out to lunch on that? __________________ Coworkers. A convenient source of food in a post apocalyptic world.

November 5, 2002, 12:39 AM	#22
kestrou Junior Member Join Date: July 4, 2001 Location: Danville, IL Posts: 4	This is the part where you all say "Welcome to TFL!" I registered here a while back but haven't posted. I've been hanging on GlockTalk for 2 years plus and thinking of calling "here" home as a direct result of the contents of this thread. I've been to FrontSight (thought it was great) and I don't give a damn about what religion anybody is, but I don't take kindly to these kind of strong-arm tactics and I'm sorry Eric at GT has "knuckled under" and is even now deleting threads... Intelligent readers of GT dismissed the mud-slinging and unfounded rhetoric of a few; but such confirmed heavy-handedness is very unpalatable in and of itself. FrontSight has only served to "multiply it's enemies", convincing even some supporters such as myself to boycott their establishment in the future. Well, gotta learn my way around now. Pleasure to meet you all. Happy to hang where men evidently aren't so easily cowed. kestrou

November 5, 2002, 12:50 AM	#23
rock_jock Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2000 Location: SE Texas Posts: 1,789	Well, let me be the first to say "Welcome to TFL, kestrou"!

November 5, 2002, 12:52 AM	#24
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 9,998	Kestrou- Welcome....and don't think poorly of our Sister Site, GlockTalk. Erick's a brother and a Patriot. I'm sure he did what he had to do. Mike- No, you're not having a senior moment. The poster you refer to was danaesq, who is most likely the FrontSight Legal Champion, Dana Morris, a Las Vegas attorney. He was the same poster who defended Front Sight and then intimated no relationship as they were "in a different state" (CA) from him. I couldn't care less about his religious leanings. Important to me is that he's already proven himself (to me) a foe of the Bill of Rights....But then, other than the truly Pure of Heart, the "vocation" hardly attracts heros. Here's the Front Sight suits filed (and defended) in Las Vegas (there's more in other counties like Nye.) Enter Front and Sight for the keywords. http://courtgate.coca.co.clark.nv.us...ordOptions.asp Note the FS attorney of record in all cases. Once upon a life, I ran a $160 million dollar a year corporation....health care no less. In ten years, I don't think we had the amount of litigation that Front Sight's had in three! But then, I guess people just pick on success! Interesting that someone would come to TFL, defend Naish and attempt to distance themselves by pointing out that FrontSight was a CA Corp, while they were wearing their typing fingers raw filing suits in the jurisdiction in question. (What's that filing fee, again? $133.00....ooooh!) Note also the pattern of the suits....almost all against lone individuals...only one against a formidable corporation. Oops, they lost that one! Rich __________________ *TheFiringLine.com* More Signal, Less Noise.....please Last edited by Rich Lucibella; November 5, 2002 at 01:15 AM.

November 5, 2002, 01:31 AM	#25
El Rojo Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2000 Location: People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 2,062	Rich, you are a true patriot. You impress me more and more. Ask my wife what she thinks about TFL. It is now as much a part of my life as anything else. I think the way this place is run is a reason why. __________________ Get Some!