CCW: Are 5 or 6 rounds enough?

9x19mm · November 10, 2002, 12:31 PM

I would like to buy an SP101 or a GP100 3'' to be used as my primary CCW firearm, but I hesitate.. Are "only" 5-6 rounds "enough"?
The question applies to small autos as well like P245 or Para Ordnance C6.45. Are 6 or 7 rounds "enough" for an imaginary "what if" scenario? I currently carry a 9mm auto (CZ85) with 15 rounds... Please note that this is not a caliber issue.
I hope this subject hasn't been beaten to death! Any input is welcome. Thank you

critter44 · November 10, 2002, 12:49 PM

The cases of multiple assailants are really few and far between. Also, even in those cases, if you 'spend' those 5-6 rounds correctly (that is put them where they will do the most good), any other assailants will begin to get the message real soon and their dedication to task at hand will deminish rapidly!

Although I carry more, a well trained operator with 5-6 rounds is, I feel, in good shape.

Wasteofmoney · November 10, 2002, 01:01 PM

I believe the range of most SD situations are somewhere in the 3-4 yd. range. The number 85% comes to mind but whatever it is, if you need more than 5 or 6 rounds at that range...

Ala Dan · November 10, 2002, 01:02 PM

Ditto the comment's made by critter 44!

He is correct,
as a well trained marksman should be able to place his
and/or her shot's where they need to be.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

AAshooter · November 10, 2002, 01:04 PM

A zillion people carry 1911s with not many more rounds. Many others carry revolvers with about the same. Rely on more training not more rounds.

WYO · November 10, 2002, 01:12 PM

For purely self defense purposes, 5-6 rounds are enough. I would still carry a reload, though.

9x19mm · November 10, 2002, 01:15 PM

Your comments are very welcome..
I guess carrying less rounds (for non LEOs) is more of a psychological than a practical issue. Had it been for 8 rounds though (7+1 for 1911s) I would have felt *much* better. I have always had hi cap firearms

On the other hand a .22 in the front pocket is much better than a .45 left at home. That is why I like the little SP101..

sanchezero · November 10, 2002, 01:25 PM

I've often thought of this myself; who hasn't

Maybe it's just that I'm an argumentative guy but...

Our world is changing and while at one point, single or double assailants may have been 'typical' I would venture to guess (I have no hard evidence) that this is changing. I look at the Rodney King riots, those LA bank jobbers (sure, only 2 guys but OMG!), and other reports from those It happened to Me columns

and see plenty of potential for actual firefights to come.

I also think about tactics of a confrontation. I love the idea of being able to pop 3 headshots in a row on a group of motivated, armed gentlemen while I'm under fire

. However, thats just not me. I can however see myself popping a few downrange to give myself a little breathing room, get to cover, and if they've decided to continue, dump 3-4 rounds into anyone that pops their head up

. This doesn't take into account having company and having to give them covering fire while they beat feet or move to engage.

Do I think any of this is likely to happen? It's certainly less likely than a coupla dudes with a SatNitSpec looking for a tax-free contribution from me. But, thats also pretty unlikely. I've CCWed for 5 years in an unsavory urban environment, often doing work that people didn't want me to do and I've never even had to use the threat of my weapon (not that I haven't wanted to

).

It's often said 'plan for the worst, hope for the best.' Is 5-6 rnds really planning for the worst?

Brian Williams · November 10, 2002, 01:32 PM

Enough for what a long drawn out running gun battle with a well armed and armored team of tanked up warriors or an individual looking for your pocket change who is as scared or more than you are.

If I was going into an offensive situation then I would have a armory at my beck and call with close air support and artillery as back up. The armory would include; a hicap "blunder-nine, a full bore blaster handgun for get off my butt situations, an extended mag shotgun for close range clear the field situations, and a nice large capacity battle rifle for when I want to clear the rest of the field and keep the BG's head down.

for defensive situations I want the KISS principle, reliable, easy to point, quick to shoot and powerful, AKA 2"-3" revo in 357 or 44 spec.

I like my S&W mod 13, 6 shots in a small easy to shoot and reliable weapon.

WESHOOT2 · November 10, 2002, 02:01 PM

But in two guns

.

stans · November 10, 2002, 02:41 PM

5 or 6 rounds should be enough for most defensive situations for the average private citizen. If you are a LEO or your name is Rambo, then you need lots more. If you are an average citizen and find yourself in a situation where you need lots of ammo, then you planned poorly and placed yourself into a bad situation. Just my two cents.

ACP230 · November 10, 2002, 02:52 PM

My guess is none of us will know until afterwards.

I carry a five shot M649, but often think of changing the wardrobe and buying more leather and carrying my Browning HP instead.

GSMD Fan · November 10, 2002, 03:02 PM

What is enough?
If I needed 5-6 rounds I bet I sure as heck wanted and could have used more.
There is nothing wrong with carrying a revolver, learn how to use it but carry reloads and/or a second gun.

I do not carry based on number of bullets. I always carry the biggest, most potent gun I can use. If for some reason the situation dictates a small revolver then that is what I would carry.
Normaly I will have a 92G on me. Most of the time I will have a spare magazine as well and a second gun.

Just my 2 cents, don't count bullets, just carry as many as you can. If there ever comes a day I don't think you will ever say, "drat, I sure as heck didn't need all those extra rounds."

With bullets better to have and not need then need and not have.

IMHO, using any bullets is not a result of poor planning. If possible I would just plan to never need them at all.

Kermit · November 10, 2002, 03:15 PM

Yes

Eric Larsen · November 10, 2002, 03:22 PM

In regards to an cut and dried answer...there is none. I ALWAYS carry my SP...at least. My primary carry is my CZ PCR stoked with 15 - 9mm 115 +P Corbons...but my SP is there also. I may be confused about what I call them..primary etc.
I feel the general" answer to be yes..you would be fine most of the time especially with a couple of speed loaders and lots of practice in a quick reload....
I shoot with guys that can reload my SP as fast as I reload my PCR..and Im not slow.
Shoot well

yorec · November 10, 2002, 04:27 PM

One shot will be sufficient for any self defense situation that you can GUARANTEE there will be only one assailant, the gun will fire without fail, you are a good enough shot to make the hit COM in a topsy-turvy life or death situation, and the round used is enough to incapacitate any attacker with that single hit.

Anything more than that is just warm fuzzies.

I feel pretty good with 5 or 6 rounds in the area I live and the kind of situation I'm most likely to wind up in. But there is always the "what if" situation that makes me carry more than just my 5 shot snubbie, whether it is a speed loader or more firepower...

blades67 · November 10, 2002, 05:26 PM

It will do if you will.

Schuey2002 · November 10, 2002, 05:30 PM

I'd have to agree with all the "yes" posts.

BTW,How's the weather over there?........

deputy tom · November 10, 2002, 06:16 PM

I've always felt quite comfortable with a 5 shot J-Frame,and a speed strip loaded with 6 more.I always carry a tactical folding knife just to be sure.

tom.

Freightman · November 10, 2002, 06:24 PM

% or 6 will be suficient if you hit what you aim at, it will also be ok in a mutiple BG situation if you carry your AK behind the seat of your PU.
I do carry my AK, not for BG's but Hogs, and other vermin I might come across out in the country.

pogo2 · November 10, 2002, 06:25 PM

For several years I have been reading the NRA magazine which has an "Armed Citizen" section describing encounters between armed people and criminals. I also subscribe to several gun magazines which frequently contain detailed stories of armed encounters. Based on reading these unscientific stories, I have the gut feel that 5-6 rounds are enough in 90% or more of the cases a citizen will encounter.

On the other hand, sometimes I have read a story, from a reputable source, of 5-6 rounds being inadequate. Just the other day someone posted a story in a gun chat room of which they had first hand knowledge, of an off-duty LEO with a 5-shot .38 snubby taking on an armed robber in a convenience store. The robber was a 285 pound man who was high on drugs, carrying an empty .22 rifle and a loaded derringer. The LEO put 5 shots in the robber's chest at close range, emptying his gun. Then the robber beat the LEO with the empty rifle and shot him to death with the derringer. The robber collapsed and died outside the store. So 5 shots was not enough here and got the good guy killed, although this is probably a very unusual case.

I have carried a 5-6 shot snubby or PPK on occasion, and taken the chance that it was enough. But my personal standard is really a minimum of 8 to 10 shots of 9mm or greater. What I feel most comfortable with is a Glock 23 with 14 rounds of .40 caliber and a spare magazine. Even if the odds are a hundred to one that I will need more than 5-6 rounds, I feel better with twice that number. And the Glock 23 is pretty lightweight and compact, and not too hard to carry.

Erik · November 10, 2002, 06:57 PM

"I guess carrying less rounds (for non LEOs) is more of a psychological than a practical issue."

For LEOs, too.

Mannlicher · November 10, 2002, 07:06 PM

Pogo2 says: The LEO put 5 shots in the robber's chest at close range, emptying his gun. Then the robber beat the LEO with the empty rifle and shot him to death with the derringer. The robber collapsed and died outside the store. So 5 shots was not enough here and got the good guy killed, although this is probably a very unusual case.

This kind of goes back to the old "where do you shoot 'em" argument. I remember back in the 70's, a friend of mine, LEO in Jacksonville shot a guy during a domestic disturbance call, 6 times with a .357, using 125 grain JHP. The perp still carved up my buddy with a kitchen knife before he died. Cop lived, thank goodness. When my friend finally returned to work, he practiced a lot doing head shots at close range.

lonegunman · November 10, 2002, 07:13 PM

Average number of shots fired in a self defense situation is ZERO.

Drjones · November 10, 2002, 07:20 PM

5 or 6 enough? Absolutely not. If you want to argue "statistically, you won't need more than that" well, statistically, you won't ever even need your gun in the first place, so why bother even carrying in the first place?

You do whatever you want, and whatever you feel is sufficient. Some of the above anecdotes are food for thought, and I'm sure there are many more. Of course there are lots of stories in which 5 or 6 was "enough" but do you want to take that chance? Better to have and not need, than to need and not have...

To keep it short, my views are: no bullets smaller than .40, and no less than ~10 rounds IN the gun, with a full spare mag in addition.

I don't think the question should be "how much is enough" but rather, "How much is not going to be enough."

Can you carry too few bullets? Sure, as that poor cop found out. Can you carry too many? That's your decision to make...

November 10, 2002, 12:31 PM	#1
9x19mm Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2001 Location: Europe Posts: 103	CCW: Are 5 or 6 rounds enough? I would like to buy an SP101 or a GP100 3'' to be used as my primary CCW firearm, but I hesitate.. Are "only" 5-6 rounds "enough"? The question applies to small autos as well like P245 or Para Ordnance C6.45. Are 6 or 7 rounds "enough" for an imaginary "what if" scenario? I currently carry a 9mm auto (CZ85) with 15 rounds... Please note that this is not a caliber issue. I hope this subject hasn't been beaten to death! Any input is welcome. Thank you

November 10, 2002, 01:01 PM	#3
Wasteofmoney Member Join Date: July 12, 2002 Location: Ulster Cty, NY Posts: 48	I believe the range of most SD situations are somewhere in the 3-4 yd. range. The number 85% comes to mind but whatever it is, if you need more than 5 or 6 rounds at that range... __________________ The original point and click interface was a Smith & Wesson.

November 10, 2002, 01:02 PM	#4
Ala Dan Member in memoriam Join Date: August 13, 1999 Location: In The HOT, Humid, and Mu Posts: 6,116	5 or 6 rounds? Ditto the comment's made by critter 44! He is correct, as a well trained marksman should be able to place his and/or her shot's where they need to be. Best Wishes, Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

November 10, 2002, 01:04 PM	#5
AAshooter Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2001 Posts: 379	A zillion people carry 1911s with not many more rounds. Many others carry revolvers with about the same. Rely on more training not more rounds. __________________ Play hard, shoot often, leave well worn guns!

November 10, 2002, 01:25 PM	#8
sanchezero Member Join Date: October 8, 2002 Posts: 42	Hmmm I've often thought of this myself; who hasn't Maybe it's just that I'm an argumentative guy but... Our world is changing and while at one point, single or double assailants may have been 'typical' I would venture to guess (I have no hard evidence) that this is changing. I look at the Rodney King riots, those LA bank jobbers (sure, only 2 guys but OMG!), and other reports from those It happened to Me columns and see plenty of potential for actual firefights to come. I also think about tactics of a confrontation. I love the idea of being able to pop 3 headshots in a row on a group of motivated, armed gentlemen while I'm under fire . However, thats just not me. I can however see myself popping a few downrange to give myself a little breathing room, get to cover, and if they've decided to continue, dump 3-4 rounds into anyone that pops their head up . This doesn't take into account having company and having to give them covering fire while they beat feet or move to engage. Do I think any of this is likely to happen? It's certainly less likely than a coupla dudes with a SatNitSpec looking for a tax-free contribution from me. But, thats also pretty unlikely. I've CCWed for 5 years in an unsavory urban environment, often doing work that people didn't want me to do and I've never even had to use the threat of my weapon (not that I haven't wanted to ). It's often said 'plan for the worst, hope for the best.' Is 5-6 rnds really planning for the worst? __________________ Stupidity - the number one sexually transmitted disease.

November 10, 2002, 12:49 PM	#2
critter44 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2000 Posts: 247	The cases of multiple assailants are really few and far between. Also, even in those cases, if you 'spend' those 5-6 rounds correctly (that is put them where they will do the most good), any other assailants will begin to get the message real soon and their dedication to task at hand will deminish rapidly! Although I carry more, a well trained operator with 5-6 rounds is, I feel, in good shape.

November 10, 2002, 01:12 PM	#6
WYO Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2001 Posts: 365	For purely self defense purposes, 5-6 rounds are enough. I would still carry a reload, though.

November 10, 2002, 01:15 PM	#7
9x19mm Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2001 Location: Europe Posts: 103	Your comments are very welcome.. I guess carrying less rounds (for non LEOs) is more of a psychological than a practical issue. Had it been for 8 rounds though (7+1 for 1911s) I would have felt much better. I have always had hi cap firearms On the other hand a .22 in the front pocket is much better than a .45 left at home. That is why I like the little SP101..

November 10, 2002, 01:32 PM	#9
Brian Williams Senior Member Join Date: September 4, 2001 Location: Lancaster, PA Posts: 1,288	Never Enough for what a long drawn out running gun battle with a well armed and armored team of tanked up warriors or an individual looking for your pocket change who is as scared or more than you are. If I was going into an offensive situation then I would have a armory at my beck and call with close air support and artillery as back up. The armory would include; a hicap "blunder-nine, a full bore blaster handgun for get off my butt situations, an extended mag shotgun for close range clear the field situations, and a nice large capacity battle rifle for when I want to clear the rest of the field and keep the BG's head down. for defensive situations I want the KISS principle, reliable, easy to point, quick to shoot and powerful, AKA 2"-3" revo in 357 or 44 spec. I like my S&W mod 13, 6 shots in a small easy to shoot and reliable weapon. __________________ Brian <><

November 10, 2002, 02:01 PM	#10
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	ENOUGH But in two guns . __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

November 10, 2002, 02:41 PM	#11
stans Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2001 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 838	5 or 6 rounds should be enough for most defensive situations for the average private citizen. If you are a LEO or your name is Rambo, then you need lots more. If you are an average citizen and find yourself in a situation where you need lots of ammo, then you planned poorly and placed yourself into a bad situation. Just my two cents.

November 10, 2002, 02:52 PM	#12
ACP230 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2000 Posts: 708	My guess is none of us will know until afterwards. I carry a five shot M649, but often think of changing the wardrobe and buying more leather and carrying my Browning HP instead. __________________ "To disarm the people (is) the best & most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason.

November 10, 2002, 03:02 PM	#13
GSMD Fan Member Join Date: January 15, 2001 Posts: 39	What is enough? If I needed 5-6 rounds I bet I sure as heck wanted and could have used more. There is nothing wrong with carrying a revolver, learn how to use it but carry reloads and/or a second gun. I do not carry based on number of bullets. I always carry the biggest, most potent gun I can use. If for some reason the situation dictates a small revolver then that is what I would carry. Normaly I will have a 92G on me. Most of the time I will have a spare magazine as well and a second gun. Just my 2 cents, don't count bullets, just carry as many as you can. If there ever comes a day I don't think you will ever say, "drat, I sure as heck didn't need all those extra rounds." With bullets better to have and not need then need and not have. IMHO, using any bullets is not a result of poor planning. If possible I would just plan to never need them at all.

November 10, 2002, 03:15 PM	#14
Kermit Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2001 Location: California Posts: 3,020	Yes

November 10, 2002, 03:22 PM	#15
Eric Larsen Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2001 Location: Bountiful....Ut. Posts: 3,226	In regards to an cut and dried answer...there is none. I ALWAYS carry my SP...at least. My primary carry is my CZ PCR stoked with 15 - 9mm 115 +P Corbons...but my SP is there also. I may be confused about what I call them..primary etc. I feel the general" answer to be yes..you would be fine most of the time especially with a couple of speed loaders and lots of practice in a quick reload.... I shoot with guys that can reload my SP as fast as I reload my PCR..and Im not slow. Shoot well __________________ If they dont know you have a gun.....then I did alright! If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice......Rush

November 10, 2002, 04:27 PM	#16
yorec Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2000 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,328	One shot will be sufficient for any self defense situation that you can GUARANTEE there will be only one assailant, the gun will fire without fail, you are a good enough shot to make the hit COM in a topsy-turvy life or death situation, and the round used is enough to incapacitate any attacker with that single hit. Anything more than that is just warm fuzzies. I feel pretty good with 5 or 6 rounds in the area I live and the kind of situation I'm most likely to wind up in. But there is always the "what if" situation that makes me carry more than just my 5 shot snubbie, whether it is a speed loader or more firepower... __________________ What part of "... shall not be infringed..." don't you understand?

November 10, 2002, 05:26 PM	#17
blades67 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 1999 Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA Posts: 6,014	It will do if you will. __________________ Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat! I hunt, therefore I am.

November 10, 2002, 05:30 PM	#18
Schuey2002 Senior Member Join Date: September 21, 2002 Posts: 854	I'd have to agree with all the "yes" posts. BTW,How's the weather over there?........

November 10, 2002, 06:16 PM	#19
deputy tom Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2002 Location: Pennsyltucky Posts: 753	I've always felt quite comfortable with a 5 shot J-Frame,and a speed strip loaded with 6 more.I always carry a tactical folding knife just to be sure. tom. __________________ N.R.A.LIFE MEMBER Thank Goodness we're back on line. An end will come on the world, but love and music will endure. Thig crioch air an t-saoghail, ach mairidh gaol 's ceol. Old Scottish Gaelic proverb

November 10, 2002, 06:24 PM	#20
Freightman Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2002 Location: NW Texas Posts: 168	% or 6 will be suficient if you hit what you aim at, it will also be ok in a mutiple BG situation if you carry your AK behind the seat of your PU. I do carry my AK, not for BG's but Hogs, and other vermin I might come across out in the country. __________________ Freightman

November 10, 2002, 06:25 PM	#21
pogo2 Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2002 Location: Southwest Posts: 879	For several years I have been reading the NRA magazine which has an "Armed Citizen" section describing encounters between armed people and criminals. I also subscribe to several gun magazines which frequently contain detailed stories of armed encounters. Based on reading these unscientific stories, I have the gut feel that 5-6 rounds are enough in 90% or more of the cases a citizen will encounter. On the other hand, sometimes I have read a story, from a reputable source, of 5-6 rounds being inadequate. Just the other day someone posted a story in a gun chat room of which they had first hand knowledge, of an off-duty LEO with a 5-shot .38 snubby taking on an armed robber in a convenience store. The robber was a 285 pound man who was high on drugs, carrying an empty .22 rifle and a loaded derringer. The LEO put 5 shots in the robber's chest at close range, emptying his gun. Then the robber beat the LEO with the empty rifle and shot him to death with the derringer. The robber collapsed and died outside the store. So 5 shots was not enough here and got the good guy killed, although this is probably a very unusual case. I have carried a 5-6 shot snubby or PPK on occasion, and taken the chance that it was enough. But my personal standard is really a minimum of 8 to 10 shots of 9mm or greater. What I feel most comfortable with is a Glock 23 with 14 rounds of .40 caliber and a spare magazine. Even if the odds are a hundred to one that I will need more than 5-6 rounds, I feel better with twice that number. And the Glock 23 is pretty lightweight and compact, and not too hard to carry.

November 10, 2002, 06:57 PM	#22
Erik Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: America Posts: 3,479	"I guess carrying less rounds (for non LEOs) is more of a psychological than a practical issue." For LEOs, too. __________________ Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective

November 10, 2002, 07:06 PM	#23
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	Pogo2 says: The LEO put 5 shots in the robber's chest at close range, emptying his gun. Then the robber beat the LEO with the empty rifle and shot him to death with the derringer. The robber collapsed and died outside the store. So 5 shots was not enough here and got the good guy killed, although this is probably a very unusual case. This kind of goes back to the old "where do you shoot 'em" argument. I remember back in the 70's, a friend of mine, LEO in Jacksonville shot a guy during a domestic disturbance call, 6 times with a .357, using 125 grain JHP. The perp still carved up my buddy with a kitchen knife before he died. Cop lived, thank goodness. When my friend finally returned to work, he practiced a lot doing head shots at close range. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

November 10, 2002, 07:13 PM	#24
lonegunman Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2001 Location: deep in georgia Posts: 1,724	Average number of shots fired in a self defense situation is ZERO.

November 10, 2002, 07:20 PM	#25
Drjones Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2002 Posts: 1,239	5 or 6 enough? Absolutely not. If you want to argue "statistically, you won't need more than that" well, statistically, you won't ever even need your gun in the first place, so why bother even carrying in the first place? You do whatever you want, and whatever you feel is sufficient. Some of the above anecdotes are food for thought, and I'm sure there are many more. Of course there are lots of stories in which 5 or 6 was "enough" but do you want to take that chance? Better to have and not need, than to need and not have... To keep it short, my views are: no bullets smaller than .40, and no less than ~10 rounds IN the gun, with a full spare mag in addition. I don't think the question should be "how much is enough" but rather, "How much is not going to be enough." Can you carry too few bullets? Sure, as that poor cop found out. Can you carry too many? That's your decision to make...