Maryland CCW Wars push forward, anyone good with Lotus Notes?

Kharn · November 16, 2002, 07:45 PM

I've been pushing forward with my quest for information on Maryland's CCW license processing, but need some help.
The Maryland State Police have a Lotus Notes database filled with information on CCW permit holders, the database is 1.8gigs. They claim it will take 80 hours to split the database onto multiple CDs and remove "Sociological information" (martial status, SSN, etc) from the database. Is that a reasonable amount of time for deleting a few sets of data in Lotus Notes and splitting it onto multiple CDs? I only use MS Access, and deleting that information would take maybe 10 minutes, but they want to charge me $14,000 for a copy of that database (80 hours at $175 an hour for a programmer).

Another issue: There are currently 34,565 CCW permits issued to individuals, but in 2001, only 2,417 permits were renewed and 1,778 new permits were issued. Maryland's permits are good for two years. Anyone else smell something fishy? How could that many permits be out there, but only 7% are renewed per year and only 5% additional ones are issued per year?

Read all about it: http://www.chesapeake.net/~mcfadden/ccw/

Kharn

eoR · November 16, 2002, 08:42 PM

Kharn,
80 hours sounds like Bravo Sierra to me. I haven't worked w/ Lotus Notes but they should be able to pull all the info you need while leaving out "Sociological information" with one SQL query. They could even use several queries, each for example retrieving 1/3 of the records so each of the 3 recordsets that are returned will fit on a cd. I'm thinking maybe 1 hour of programmer time rather than 80.
If no one here can give you a definitive answer, try going to this link: Lotus Notes User Groups on Yahoo. You should be able to post your question to one of the groups and get an answer.
Good Luck,
Devin

**tyme** · November 17, 2002, 07:21 AM

Quote:

There are currently 34,565 CCW permits issued to individuals, but in 2001, only 2,417 permits were renewed and 1,778 new permits were issued. Maryland's permits are good for two years.

Those numbers look rather strange.

Quote:

They claim it will take 80 hours to split the database onto multiple CDs and remove "Sociological information" (martial status, SSN, etc) from the database.

More like 80 hours to sanitize some of the names and renewal dates, too...

Sounds like they're going to pay some consultant $175/hr to remove the data by hand. I still don't think it would take more than a day. Tell them to stuff their request for $14k ... That sounds like a NY contract - $6k for the superindendent, $6k for his favorite contractor, and $2k for the actual consultant, who spends 30 minutes on it and pockets the other $1825

Anyway, there is certainly a way to export the data from Notes. Some people even claim to have done it. Once it's out of Notes, in Excel or some SQL db, getting rid of the "sociological data" is easy. Point them at this and see if they can't figure it out.
http://www.tek-tips.com/gpviewthread...lev2/3/lev3/15

Why on earth are they keeping the stuff in a Notes "db" anyway, when they don't seem to have anyone around who can automate the deletion of a few fields?

Kharn · November 17, 2002, 09:06 AM

I was incorrect in my previous post, the first permit is good for two years, renewals are good for 3 years. http://www.inform.umd.edu/UMS+State/...P/handgun.html (see #1 under Definitions).

Kharn

Waitone · November 17, 2002, 09:40 AM

With all due respect, Kharn, nothing you said makes sense.

There should be virtually no effort at all to delete "sociological" fields from a relational database. Now if you are interested in deleting certain records you must perform various data sorts. That could take lots of time depending upon the number of records you want deleted. Then you've got the nasty little problem of having 2+ databases out there, one in the light, the other potentially in the light.

1.8 gig relational database for 35,000 records?????? Ok, let's assume permit holders and those who have applied but were refused is included. Double the record number, 70,000 records. Something is wrong here.
What else do they have in that database? Is it a freestanding CCH database or is it part of a larger database. . . . . oh, say DMV data?

I suspect you are getting hosed down by a bureaucracy. I suggest finding a FOI attorney because it ain't making any sense.

Kharn · November 17, 2002, 10:19 AM

Waitone: There were only 298 denials in 2001 (noted on my page, but not posted). I think the MDSP just doesnt give the forms out (why I wanted to know how many forms were distributed last year), or tells people not to waste thier $140 by applying, because they wont get a permit, so there is probably only like 40-45k records in the database at the most.

I'm a college student, so money is tight, but Jim March is helping me out with some of it.

Kharn

JeepDriver · November 17, 2002, 02:51 PM

I can tell you from personal experiance they do tell you not to waste your money. I was going to apply last year and was told by two different officers that unless it was required by my job or I wasin a high risk catagory (that would be determined by them) I was wasting time and money. I have seen the amount of paper work that they reguire for a ccw permit. I though buying a house was a lot of paper work before I saw the stack they want you to fill out.

Good Luck

Please keep us up to date on your efforts and anything we can do to help.

cpileri · November 17, 2002, 03:01 PM

I was told not to waste my money also.

I tried every angle I could, and to his credit the officer I spoke with was very patient with my questions and even reviewed the gun laws as written with me (see below).

Here's the reasons I tried, somewhat in order of what I thought would work:

I am a registred firearms collector.

paraphrased officers response: How much is your collection worth? (not too much) No, you can carry when displaying your collection, but not in transit.

I am a physician.

paraphrased officers response: nope, we only mean docs who make housecalls and carry drugs and cash around. Also other business owners who carry cash around. Not you.

I am active duty military.

paraphrased officers response: well, no one will hassle you in uniform; bt the law was really intended for National Guard and Reserves who keep a firearm at home and have to bring it to work. (then I said I wasn't interested in spending any time in the slammer testing out the "no one will hassle me" part.)

How about the 9/11 threats?

No way, everyone was denied for that. (I am sure they pocketed a LOT of cash for these at 140 a pop)

There's a sniper around?

same answer.

But I do infact, have the paperwork for one. it sits, blank and dusty on my desk. Maybe I should start making housecalls...

I will happily help you if i can with your efforts. i am not sure what I may be able, or have time, to do. But I certainly do support the effort!

C-

Kharn · November 17, 2002, 03:21 PM

JeepDriver, Cpileri, thanks for the info; (obviously) they're keeping the denial rate low by telling people it will be a waste of money. Did you guys call the MDSP, or go in person? Maybe they keep phone logs regarding what people call about, finding out the number of people that call or visit a barracks asking about CCW in a year would be interesting.

Kharn

cpileri · November 17, 2002, 04:05 PM

I called.

MikeK · November 17, 2002, 04:20 PM

Kharn;

I've been working in this field since it was called Data Processing and am also a MD resident. From my brief exposure to Lotus Notes over 10 years ago, it is a hog. They may very well have all sorts of other non-CCW data in there so 1.8 gig could be real. I agree with the others that extracting data you want should not be an 80 hour $14,000 job. I'd be happy to take a crack at it for $7,000 and save the state some money.

Judging from your Web site you're aware of MCDL and I assume Ed Patrick and Phil Lee. Some other MD resources are:

Associated Gun Clubs - John Jocelyn

Tripwire - Jim Purtillo

MCSM - Bob Culver

They all have Web sites and e-mails. You seem tuned in so you probably have this info already. If not, send me an e-mail and I'll send you their e-mails etc.

Whatever happened to Freedom of Information?

Jim March · November 17, 2002, 07:42 PM

Kharn, I should be able to come up with financial help on points 4 and 5 in a bit under 2 weeks (payday).

I think we should look at that before we do anything - it might explain why the raw numbers look screwy.

Another thing: WHY didn't they list how many pages in the policy manual?! Think about it - they do NOT want you to have access to it. Push hard on that one!

Kharn · November 17, 2002, 08:05 PM

Jim: Dont worry about #4 and 5, I can handle that myself. The policy manual is 276 pages ($138 for a copy), according to response #2, which is way beyond what I can afford to pay. I find it sort of ironic that the manual costs as much as a CCW application ($140).

I believe they are trying to overcharge me to a point of making it financially difficult on purpose. I wonder if I would be allowed to show up with a laptop and scanner, I could probably scan those 276 pages in like 4 hours and burn them onto CD for distribution.

Kharn

Waitone · November 17, 2002, 10:01 PM

Kharn,

You were not clear, but did you file a Freedom in Information action with Maryland?

Let me clearly state I'm dumb as a stump when it comes to Maryland law but I do know something about federal FOI and some states FOI procedure.

FOI laws were put into place understanding the state had to recover costs directly related to fulfilling the request. In the early days that was limited to copying costs and associated labor. It was also recognized some people would not be able to afford legitimate costs so they included special provision whereby the destitute could get their request fulfilled either free or at a greatly reduced cost.

FWIW.

bastiat · November 17, 2002, 10:14 PM

$14K sounds like a load of BS. Never used lotus but if it's worthy of being widespread there has to be an easy way to do a query and omit certain fields.

As far as fitting it all on a CD, tell themto use winzip. Export the database to a Tab Delimited or Comma Separated file and then compress. Pretty sure it will fit on one CD, especially with all that difficult-to-extract personal data omitted.

Kharn · November 17, 2002, 10:20 PM

Waitone:
I was filing under the Maryland Public Information Act, which is basically the same thing as the FOIA. The problem is, I might not qualify as poor (I'm a college kid, paying for half of my tuition by working; my parents, who are well-off, pay the other half), but I will definitely look into it. Thanks for the suggestion.

Kharn

Rovert · November 17, 2002, 11:13 PM

Just to correct a misperception, Lotus Notes is NOT a relational database. It is a general purpose object store. Therefore, I don't believe that running a SQL query would have any effect.

That said, it's possible that whatever dump they might do would take longer, but it shouldn't be impossible. The simple solution would be to export predetermined fields to ASCII, and call it a day. I can't imagine that would take too much in the way of resources.

Let me see if I can get my contacts at Lotus to give me some feedback.

TheEggman · November 18, 2002, 06:32 PM

Dump Notes File into a Comma or Tab Delimited File - .5 Hr.
Import File into DBMS ie Access or even Excel - .5 Hr.
Delete PERSONALLY IDENTIFIABLE fields, (ssn, Name, Street, etc.) - .5 hr.
Save as Workbook, Database or Delimited File - 1 Minute
Burn CD - .5 hr.
TOTAL TIME: 2 Hours 1 Minute + a $0.50 CD

Bureaucratic run arounds, quadruplicate paperwork, handwringing and knashing of teeth because they don't know how to deal directly with the public, (their employers) and dozens of employees drafting position papers and policy memos, + 1/2 Ream of A__ Covering Documents and Legal Consultations ---- PRICELESS!

JeepDriver · November 18, 2002, 06:51 PM

I was a walk in to the police station. I asked the desk sargent about a CCW and I was told about the high risk, and required by my job part.

The second officer a SWAT member at the range and was told it was a waste of money to apply with out being able to prove my life was in danger.

I guess no one's life is in danger, until it is in danger.

Guess they were never in the Boy Scouts. "Be Prepared"

Jim March · November 19, 2002, 01:11 AM

A couple of points:

1) Kharn is not asking for street addresses, social security numbers or phone numbers, because neither harassment or identity theft is his goal. But he DOES need the names of the permitholders, because he needs to run those past campaign contributor rosters.

2) This whole "don't bother to apply" thing is straight out of the California playbook. The reality is, they don't want any comparisons made between rich cronies who score without "good cause" and desperate peons who get laughed at.

Get - the - names

. You won't believe what'll turn up.

dZ · November 19, 2002, 10:29 AM

have you been intouch with Tripwire's Jim Purtillo or MCDL or MCRKBA yet?

eoR · November 19, 2002, 01:55 PM

Offer to give them this $60 piece of software and an hours worth of your time to do what they were going to charge you the $14K to have done. See what excuses they come up w/ then.

NotesTable Wizard for Access 97 / 2000 / 2002
http://www.acc-technology.com/ntwiz.htm

Quote:

The NotesTable Wizard is an Add-In that gives you the power to import your Lotus Notes View data directly into MS Access and create proper SQL formatted tables. With the NotesTable Wizard you can import the data off a Notes Server or from a local NSF file. You can choose to create a new table or append an existing table. Best of all, there are no complicated ODBC drivers or any other installation process required. The NotesTable Wizard imports the data using advanced OLE Automation.

Devin

Kharn · November 19, 2002, 03:36 PM

eoR: Any idea of what size the MS Access database would be compared to the 1.8gig Notes database?

Kharn

MikeK · November 19, 2002, 07:02 PM

dz;

You must not be on ALL of the pro-gun E-mail lists in MD - I thought you were. MCDL is actively pursuing this. Havn't contacted Purtillo yet, but he may be aware of it. AGC seems to have some interest. Didn't think of MCRKBA.

Kharn · November 19, 2002, 09:19 PM

Alright, I need some help. Specifically, I want to get the list of names (I will get the rest of the database at a later date) of all the people in the Lotus Notes database the MDSP maintains. So, could someone please detail the procedure to export a field from all the records from a Lotus Notes database into a text file?

Thanks,
Kharn

November 17, 2002, 09:40 AM	#5
Waitone Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2000 Posts: 2,904	With all due respect, Kharn, nothing you said makes sense. There should be virtually no effort at all to delete "sociological" fields from a relational database. Now if you are interested in deleting certain records you must perform various data sorts. That could take lots of time depending upon the number of records you want deleted. Then you've got the nasty little problem of having 2+ databases out there, one in the light, the other potentially in the light. 1.8 gig relational database for 35,000 records?????? Ok, let's assume permit holders and those who have applied but were refused is included. Double the record number, 70,000 records. Something is wrong here. What else do they have in that database? Is it a freestanding CCH database or is it part of a larger database. . . . . oh, say DMV data? I suspect you are getting hosed down by a bureaucracy. I suggest finding a FOI attorney because it ain't making any sense. __________________ "Given a choice between good intentions and human nature, I'll go with human nature every time."--Me, 2002.

November 17, 2002, 02:51 PM	#7
JeepDriver Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Location: White Marsh, Maryland Posts: 79	I can tell you from personal experiance they do tell you not to waste your money. I was going to apply last year and was told by two different officers that unless it was required by my job or I wasin a high risk catagory (that would be determined by them) I was wasting time and money. I have seen the amount of paper work that they reguire for a ccw permit. I though buying a house was a lot of paper work before I saw the stack they want you to fill out. Good Luck Please keep us up to date on your efforts and anything we can do to help. Last edited by JeepDriver; November 18, 2002 at 06:45 PM.

November 17, 2002, 03:01 PM	#8
cpileri Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2001 Location: Peoples Republik of Maryland, Sister State to Kalifornia Posts: 619	Yeah, me too. I was told not to waste my money also. I tried every angle I could, and to his credit the officer I spoke with was very patient with my questions and even reviewed the gun laws as written with me (see below). Here's the reasons I tried, somewhat in order of what I thought would work: I am a registred firearms collector. paraphrased officers response: How much is your collection worth? (not too much) No, you can carry when displaying your collection, but not in transit. I am a physician. paraphrased officers response: nope, we only mean docs who make housecalls and carry drugs and cash around. Also other business owners who carry cash around. Not you. I am active duty military. paraphrased officers response: well, no one will hassle you in uniform; bt the law was really intended for National Guard and Reserves who keep a firearm at home and have to bring it to work. (then I said I wasn't interested in spending any time in the slammer testing out the "no one will hassle me" part.) How about the 9/11 threats? No way, everyone was denied for that. (I am sure they pocketed a LOT of cash for these at 140 a pop) There's a sniper around? same answer. But I do infact, have the paperwork for one. it sits, blank and dusty on my desk. Maybe I should start making housecalls... I will happily help you if i can with your efforts. i am not sure what I may be able, or have time, to do. But I certainly do support the effort! C- __________________ ___________________________ "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -- William Pitt (1783)

November 17, 2002, 04:05 PM	#10
cpileri Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2001 Location: Peoples Republik of Maryland, Sister State to Kalifornia Posts: 619	called I called. __________________ ___________________________ "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -- William Pitt (1783)

November 17, 2002, 07:42 PM	#12
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	Kharn, I should be able to come up with financial help on points 4 and 5 in a bit under 2 weeks (payday). I think we should look at that before we do anything - it might explain why the raw numbers look screwy. Another thing: WHY didn't they list how many pages in the policy manual?! Think about it - they do NOT want you to have access to it. Push hard on that one! __________________ Jim March

November 16, 2002, 07:45 PM	#1
Kharn Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,531	Maryland CCW Wars push forward, anyone good with Lotus Notes? I've been pushing forward with my quest for information on Maryland's CCW license processing, but need some help. The Maryland State Police have a Lotus Notes database filled with information on CCW permit holders, the database is 1.8gigs. They claim it will take 80 hours to split the database onto multiple CDs and remove "Sociological information" (martial status, SSN, etc) from the database. Is that a reasonable amount of time for deleting a few sets of data in Lotus Notes and splitting it onto multiple CDs? I only use MS Access, and deleting that information would take maybe 10 minutes, but they want to charge me $14,000 for a copy of that database (80 hours at $175 an hour for a programmer). Another issue: There are currently 34,565 CCW permits issued to individuals, but in 2001, only 2,417 permits were renewed and 1,778 new permits were issued. Maryland's permits are good for two years. Anyone else smell something fishy? How could that many permits be out there, but only 7% are renewed per year and only 5% additional ones are issued per year? Read all about it: http://www.chesapeake.net/~mcfadden/ccw/ Kharn Last edited by Kharn; November 17, 2002 at 10:27 AM.

November 16, 2002, 08:42 PM	#2
eoR Member Join Date: November 1, 2002 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 33	Kharn, 80 hours sounds like Bravo Sierra to me. I haven't worked w/ Lotus Notes but they should be able to pull all the info you need while leaving out "Sociological information" with one SQL query. They could even use several queries, each for example retrieving 1/3 of the records so each of the 3 recordsets that are returned will fit on a cd. I'm thinking maybe 1 hour of programmer time rather than 80. If no one here can give you a definitive answer, try going to this link: Lotus Notes User Groups on Yahoo. You should be able to post your question to one of the groups and get an answer. Good Luck, Devin

November 17, 2002, 09:06 AM	#4
Kharn Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,531	I was incorrect in my previous post, the first permit is good for two years, renewals are good for 3 years. http://www.inform.umd.edu/UMS+State/...P/handgun.html (see #1 under Definitions). Kharn

November 17, 2002, 10:19 AM	#6
Kharn Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,531	Waitone: There were only 298 denials in 2001 (noted on my page, but not posted). I think the MDSP just doesnt give the forms out (why I wanted to know how many forms were distributed last year), or tells people not to waste thier $140 by applying, because they wont get a permit, so there is probably only like 40-45k records in the database at the most. I'm a college student, so money is tight, but Jim March is helping me out with some of it. Kharn

November 17, 2002, 03:21 PM	#9
Kharn Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,531	JeepDriver, Cpileri, thanks for the info; (obviously) they're keeping the denial rate low by telling people it will be a waste of money. Did you guys call the MDSP, or go in person? Maybe they keep phone logs regarding what people call about, finding out the number of people that call or visit a barracks asking about CCW in a year would be interesting. Kharn

November 17, 2002, 04:20 PM	#11
MikeK Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2000 Location: MD Posts: 566	Kharn; I've been working in this field since it was called Data Processing and am also a MD resident. From my brief exposure to Lotus Notes over 10 years ago, it is a hog. They may very well have all sorts of other non-CCW data in there so 1.8 gig could be real. I agree with the others that extracting data you want should not be an 80 hour $14,000 job. I'd be happy to take a crack at it for $7,000 and save the state some money. Judging from your Web site you're aware of MCDL and I assume Ed Patrick and Phil Lee. Some other MD resources are: Associated Gun Clubs - John Jocelyn Tripwire - Jim Purtillo MCSM - Bob Culver They all have Web sites and e-mails. You seem tuned in so you probably have this info already. If not, send me an e-mail and I'll send you their e-mails etc. Whatever happened to Freedom of Information?

November 17, 2002, 08:05 PM	#13
Kharn Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,531	Jim: Dont worry about #4 and 5, I can handle that myself. The policy manual is 276 pages ($138 for a copy), according to response #2, which is way beyond what I can afford to pay. I find it sort of ironic that the manual costs as much as a CCW application ($140). I believe they are trying to overcharge me to a point of making it financially difficult on purpose. I wonder if I would be allowed to show up with a laptop and scanner, I could probably scan those 276 pages in like 4 hours and burn them onto CD for distribution. Kharn

November 17, 2002, 10:01 PM	#14
Waitone Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2000 Posts: 2,904	Kharn, You were not clear, but did you file a Freedom in Information action with Maryland? Let me clearly state I'm dumb as a stump when it comes to Maryland law but I do know something about federal FOI and some states FOI procedure. FOI laws were put into place understanding the state had to recover costs directly related to fulfilling the request. In the early days that was limited to copying costs and associated labor. It was also recognized some people would not be able to afford legitimate costs so they included special provision whereby the destitute could get their request fulfilled either free or at a greatly reduced cost. FWIW. __________________ "Given a choice between good intentions and human nature, I'll go with human nature every time."--Me, 2002.

November 17, 2002, 10:14 PM	#15
bastiat Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2001 Posts: 1,771	$14K sounds like a load of BS. Never used lotus but if it's worthy of being widespread there has to be an easy way to do a query and omit certain fields. As far as fitting it all on a CD, tell themto use winzip. Export the database to a Tab Delimited or Comma Separated file and then compress. Pretty sure it will fit on one CD, especially with all that difficult-to-extract personal data omitted. __________________ Flashbunny.org - Pro-Freedom Propaganda Politically Incorrect & Pro-Gun Stuff To Buy

November 17, 2002, 10:20 PM	#16
Kharn Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,531	Waitone: I was filing under the Maryland Public Information Act, which is basically the same thing as the FOIA. The problem is, I might not qualify as poor (I'm a college kid, paying for half of my tuition by working; my parents, who are well-off, pay the other half), but I will definitely look into it. Thanks for the suggestion. Kharn

November 17, 2002, 11:13 PM	#17
Rovert Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2001 Posts: 824	Just to correct a misperception, Lotus Notes is NOT a relational database. It is a general purpose object store. Therefore, I don't believe that running a SQL query would have any effect. That said, it's possible that whatever dump they might do would take longer, but it shouldn't be impossible. The simple solution would be to export predetermined fields to ASCII, and call it a day. I can't imagine that would take too much in the way of resources. Let me see if I can get my contacts at Lotus to give me some feedback. __________________ "Following the path of least resistance is what makes rivers, and men, crooked."

November 18, 2002, 06:32 PM	#18
TheEggman Member Join Date: March 25, 2002 Location: SOMEWHERE Inside the Beltway Posts: 35	Dump Notes File into a Comma or Tab Delimited File - .5 Hr. Import File into DBMS ie Access or even Excel - .5 Hr. Delete PERSONALLY IDENTIFIABLE fields, (ssn, Name, Street, etc.) - .5 hr. Save as Workbook, Database or Delimited File - 1 Minute Burn CD - .5 hr. TOTAL TIME: 2 Hours 1 Minute + a $0.50 CD Bureaucratic run arounds, quadruplicate paperwork, handwringing and knashing of teeth because they don't know how to deal directly with the public, (their employers) and dozens of employees drafting position papers and policy memos, + 1/2 Ream of A__ Covering Documents and Legal Consultations ---- PRICELESS! __________________ THE Eggman, GSSF, NRA, VCDL, AFIO, DmAt, MSI 0 <-- His Mark "If You Can't Be Free, At Least Be Irritating"

November 18, 2002, 06:51 PM	#19
JeepDriver Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Location: White Marsh, Maryland Posts: 79	I was a walk in to the police station. I asked the desk sargent about a CCW and I was told about the high risk, and required by my job part. The second officer a SWAT member at the range and was told it was a waste of money to apply with out being able to prove my life was in danger. I guess no one's life is in danger, until it is in danger. Guess they were never in the Boy Scouts. "Be Prepared"

November 19, 2002, 01:11 AM	#20
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	A couple of points: 1) Kharn is not asking for street addresses, social security numbers or phone numbers, because neither harassment or identity theft is his goal. But he DOES need the names of the permitholders, because he needs to run those past campaign contributor rosters. 2) This whole "don't bother to apply" thing is straight out of the California playbook. The reality is, they don't want any comparisons made between rich cronies who score without "good cause" and desperate peons who get laughed at. Get - the - names . You won't believe what'll turn up. __________________ Jim March

November 19, 2002, 10:29 AM	#21
dZ Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: Exiled, Fetid Swamp, DC Posts: 7,548	have you been intouch with Tripwire's Jim Purtillo or MCDL or MCRKBA yet? __________________ "O tell the Lacedomecians to damn the torpedoes." BOTR, Chapter V: Some Monsters

November 19, 2002, 03:36 PM	#23
Kharn Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,531	eoR: Any idea of what size the MS Access database would be compared to the 1.8gig Notes database? Kharn

November 19, 2002, 07:02 PM	#24
MikeK Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2000 Location: MD Posts: 566	dz; You must not be on ALL of the pro-gun E-mail lists in MD - I thought you were. MCDL is actively pursuing this. Havn't contacted Purtillo yet, but he may be aware of it. AGC seems to have some interest. Didn't think of MCRKBA.

November 19, 2002, 09:19 PM	#25
Kharn Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,531	Alright, I need some help. Specifically, I want to get the list of names (I will get the rest of the database at a later date) of all the people in the Lotus Notes database the MDSP maintains. So, could someone please detail the procedure to export a field from all the records from a Lotus Notes database into a text file? Thanks, Kharn