Steyr M series safety quibble part II

[Handy]

Well, this time the topic got hijacked by the moderator. If everyone could please not offend Tamara with the term "Mall Ninja" or similar, maybe we can continue.

If you think this is a stupid debate, please protest by refusing to post in it. Thanks.

Here's where we left off:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...hreadid=144739

The Debate:

MrArcheson, people with "Mac" in the name and myself defending the "If one part breaks, it will fire" thinking.

Tetchaje, Twoblink and others taking the "The Steyr is too well built to break" footing.

Several other random posters going with the "So far, so good" arguement.

This continuing debate IS interesting because certain facts have come to light as a result of it. E.g: Initially, no one knew if the striker was carried with sufficient spring tension to detonate a primer. Now it appears they will. Good stuff.

[lockandrock]

You know what we should do;

We should collect a steyr safety & durability fund and pay for a test. Basically we gather a steyr (new) send it to CA for their drop testing and then provide the gun and like 10K+ rounds to a gun magazine and get a durability test going and have the gun review by the magazine & report any failures, broken Tab and AD discharges.

Surprise Steyr/AUS hasn't done this. This would get the good positive press that they need to get more buyers, thus more sellers here in the USA.
Maybe they will get big enough to get a Steyr?USA office.

btw: One thing that pisses me off about my steyr is the label on the frame "GSI T'villeUSA". Since GSI is out of the picture what are the new manufactured state-side steyrs marked with ? How about the folks up North ( canada )?

[spacemanspiff]

there arent any steyr m or s series that have been manufactured since GSI stopped importing them. it may take a while for a new importer to be designated and then production will display a different stamp.

[Jimmy Mac]

There is no reason to send one anywhere.

The design of this gun is simple enough for anyone that understands gun design to understand.

Basically it is a single action. Some may disagree but even those that claim it is a double action admit that the striker is 72% cocked under spring tension. So far that much is agreed by everyone. In my opinion it is more like 95% cocked but we will agree for now it is 72%.

Also most of us agree that there is no slide mounted firing pin lock. There is NOTHING in the slide to stop the forward movement of the striker if the sear should fail or the tab on the striker should break.

Also most of us know that most other modern designs have some sort of safety device that would prevent this from happening.

Glocks and most other guns have a firing pin lock for this kind of event.

Some have manaul safetys to prevent this. The 1911 for example has more than one just for this.

Anyone can see that the Steyr is lacking something here.

Also many other guns are not cocked during carry. Most modern guns are DA or DAO. This does away from the worry of possible ADs from a hammer or striker falling and even these have firing pin locks.

The single action guns that are carried cocked such as the XD have a firing pin lock to prevent an AD if the sear failed.

The 1911 has a manaul safety that blocks both the hammer and sear and it also has a half cock or intersept notch to catch the fall of the hammer and later ones also have a firing pin lock.

The Steyr has NONE of these safety devices to catch the fall of the cocked striker.

So it is plain to anyone that understands gun design that the Steyr CAN NOT be as safe as some other designs.

The arugement that some are so fond of that any other gun would have an AD if the sear failed is not true and I have already proven that.

The next arugement is that the Steyr can not break therefore an AD can not happen.

They claim the tab on the striker is so big and well designed that it CAN'T break.

Engineers build stuff all the time that "can't break" but it does.

No matter how you look at you are trusting your life and the lives of those around you to one little part that you hope can't break.

[twoblink]

I don't know how I'll word it yet (exactly) but I might refer Bubits to the few threads on this board, or just ask him his thoughts on the comments so far with regard to the safety of the Steyrs.

[tetchaje]

Please do twoblink.

I bet Dr. Aigner was getting tired of all my incessant e-mails for more information, too.

FWIW, MrAcheson made an excellent post prior to the previous thread being closed about statistical sampling sizes. Basically, he stated that Steyr would need to have at least 20 M-Series pistols that have been shot up to 150,000 rounds in order to gain a good idea of predictable lifespan for the sear/firing pin (I would say that they would need a minimum of 30 pistols to gather this information, but in all fairness we can leave it at 20).

The truth is that I don't know the answer to how many pistols Steyr has tested. Perhaps I need to drop a few more e-mails to Dr. Aigner.

One thing that nobody has yet provided to me, though, is a parts diagram of the HS2000/XD as I have long been under the impression that that particular pistol has a similar safety system to the Steyr M. I believe that it doesn't have a plunger-type firing pin stop, and it is even rated by the BATF as a SA pistol. Oh the humanity!!!

If somebody would post a parts diagram of the HS2000/XD I would be much obliged.

[Handy]

You might try something like:

Based on experiments with primed cases and the striker manually released from where it normally engages the sear, it seems that the "at rest" position has sufficient spring tension to detonate the primer. Given this fact, it seems that the pistol would spontaneously fire should the striker sear hook ever shear off due to stress, corrosion, defects, etc. Keeping in mind a pistol may spend the majority of its life loaded, what prevents this from happening in the long term?

Hopefully he'd directly address the issue.

[Jimmy Mac]

The HS XD has a plunger type firing pin lock very similer to the Glock, Beretta etc.

The grip safety blocks the sear.

[Jimmy Mac]

Handy.

You do not expect them to admit it do you?

A lot of thought went into the design of the triggger group on this pistol. It is a good design that was very well thought out.

The problem is the good well thought out design did not carry over to the top of the pistol.

They gave no thought as to what may happen if something failed in their good trigger group and the striker fell.

Steyr could test 100 pistols and fire them a million rounds each and have no problem. You or I could buy one that had just a tiny flaw in the material that the striker is made from and we could have a serious problem.

Again this is a problem that is possible to have only in the Styer pistol and a few junk SA guns such as a Jennings or Bryco.

A Glock or some other DAO gun would not be dangerous with this kind of a defect.

[Handy]

Tetchaje,

If the XD proves to lack the plunger safety Jimmy noted, it will likely receive similar treatment. But it does have the grip safety block as well.

Jimmy,

Possibly, or they really do have that kind of faith in the strength of the components. It will be interesting to hear. I would not be surprised, though, if the factory insisted the there isn't enough spring pressure to fire.

I once called Glock and asked how far back from full battery the gun will fire. (All guns have some play.) The service rep told me zero, none at all. Yet I have three Glocks that will go to 1/8" and pop primers. But that was a rep, not an engineer.

[tetchaje]

The HS XD has a plunger type firing pin lock very similer to the Glock, Beretta etc.

You keep saying this Jimmy without posting any proof. If you can't back it up, don't post.

The manual says that the HS2000 has a "firing pin block". That is exactly the same thing that my Steyr manual says. Prove that the "block" == "plunger-type stop".

Look for yourself:
http://www.stronghand.net/images/hs2...000-manual.pdf

Since I can't seem to find a parts diagram on the internet, show me a parts diagram that has a plunger and I'll shut up about it.

I grow tired of this...

[Jimmy Mac]

Ask someone that owns one. I do not have a diagram and I have a need for one. I know they have the firing pin lock. I have looked at and shot these pistols.

Springfield may have this info on their web site.

[tetchaje]

That link does have a parts diagram, but the PDF is of such bad quality that I cannot make out the parts numbers.

Under the heading "Safety Devices" (Pg.5) there is listed a "Firing Pin Block/Drop Safety". This is exactly what the Steyr manual says. It says that there is a pin that projects in front of the firing pin, but that it is released when the grip safety is engaged.

So basically, if you grip the gun and disengage the grip safety, the pistol is just like the Steyr (except that the Steyr still has something, the firing pin catch, blocking the firing pin until the trigger is pulled). The only difference now is that the striker on the single action HS2000/XD (BATF says so) is fully cocked versus the partial cocking on the double-action-only Steyr (BATF was fooled by Steyr into believing it was DA... ).

[Jimmy Mac]

The grip safety only blocks the sear. The firing pin is still blocked by the plunger type lock untill you pull the trigger.

[twoblink]

I tried to be as far and complete as I can, while being terse. My email to Mr. Bubits. And now the waiting begins.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hello Mr. Bubits,

I own a Steyr M40 and am very happy with it. But on the discussion board I am on, there has been recently quite a few discussions with regard to the design safety of the pistol.

The most serious of the questions concerns is that there is a lack of redundancy in the system; that if the firing pin tab and the sear were to not mate correctly, that the gun would go off.

There has been two tests where the slide has been removed and the barrel has been removed, the firing pin moved to where the sear engagement is; and let go, and the gun has fired. This would lead us to believe that there is enough tension on the firing pin to cause an "Accidental Discharge" (AD) if the sear were ever to lose engagement (without a trigger pull). It has been said that a Steyr has fired by lifting the rear of the slide.

These are serious charges made against the Steyr pistol, and so it is my hope that you could explain to us the mentality behind the design with regards to safety; second address the concern with regards to redundancy of safeties, and third, what possible tests you and Steyr have done as far as safety tests and torture tests. It is the belief of some, that the lack of a firing pin safety tab on the slide (like on a Glock) makes the Steyr an unsafe pistol. If you or a Steyr engineer would address these issues, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance,
Albert

[Handy]

Tetchaje,

The XD manual you posted does say that the pin projects INTO the firing pin channel. It goes on to say that the pin requires 3 ordered actions to move it, only the first being the grip safety. The pin block parts are listed with the other slide components, rather than the frame parts. Based on that diagram and depiction, looks like the same old spring loaded plunger found in everything from the P-38 to Kahr.

[Jimmy Mac]

Exactly. This is a much safer design than the Steyr.

This firing pin lock is partly to blame for the long two stage type trigger pull of the XD. The first part of the trigger pull is releasing the firing pin lock.

[twoblink]

I just shot an email to Dr. Aigner.

Someone asked the same questions and here was Dr. Aigner's reply: (In German) I shoved it through babelfish and it said basically what I thought it would say... He says that would take movements of 3.5mm for that to happen.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sehr geehrter Herr Möller !

Bei der Steyr-M-Pistole ist der Schlagbolzen vorgespannt. Zum Auslösen wird der Schlagbolzen noch 1 mm nach hinten bewegt. Wenn Sie den Verschluß nach hinten ziehen, entspannt die Schlagstiftfeder sofort. Der Verriegelungsweg (die Lauf + Verschluß ganz eingegriffene geradlinige Bewegung) beträgt 3,5 mm. Bis sich Lauf und Verschluß vollständig trennen, benötigen beide nochmals 2 mm. Nur unverriegelt wäre ungewollt einen Schuß auszulösen gefährlich. Auch schwenkt beim Entriegeln der Lauf mit der Patrone nach unter. D. h. der Schlagbolzen wird so vom Zündhütchen entfernt.

Ich glaube kaum, ein Sicherheitsmanko wäre vorhanden, denn der Wettbewerb bemühte sich in diesem Zusammenhang bis jetzt erfolglos einen Schuß auszulösen. Hülsenreiser (Längsriß) entstehen durch Fehler in der Hülse. Mit allen Patronen wurden Verdämmungsbeschüsse durchgeführt, alle Hülsen blieben unbeschädigt.

Mit besten Grüssen und ein frohes Fest

[twoblink]

Ok, from rereading the bad babelfish translation, I think I understand what he is saying.

There's 2mm of horizontal displacement needed to overcome the sear engagement.

Handy, I think this is why your test might not be correct. The assumption made is that the firing pin tab and the sear have disengaged (without a trigger pull) and it's "slipped off". If that's the case, the firing pin does not fire from the "at rest" position, it fires from 2mm forward more; because that's the "tip" of the sear iceburg, for a lack of a better description.

So I believe while it might fire if you pulled the tab back to the point where it sits, that would not be the starting point in which the firing pin would be if were were a slip. It would be a release starting from the edge of the sear. This is the "ease of spring tension" I think the good Doctor is referring to. 2mm on that is a lot, so the tension might not be the 70something%, and thus not fire. Because the assumption is that the sear platform has not moved rearward.

[twoblink]

The Reply:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Mr.Yang,
you have right with the question about the firing pin safety. If there is a new technical solution then a lot of specialist try to find a drawback. With
the Steyr pistol a special firing pin safety is unnecessary because of the design of the new trigger system. The clearence between the guide rails and the slide is approx. 0.1mm The engagement of the firing pin and the sear is
1mm. If you want to lift the slide 1mm, you need a lot of power.
The pistol has been positiv tested by ATF/USA and after the regulations of the Muenster test (strongest pistol test).
The firing pin is fee floating at the last 1mm and the tension of the firing pin spring is 30N (3kg).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK, so from his reply it's as I suspected; the firing pin is (I think he means "free floating") at the last 1mm, so that is why it's classified as a DAO instead of an SAO. The draw of the spring from the sear is partial, and if there is a clearance of the sear; the firing pin is free floating and so shouldn't fire.

What I think he is trying to say up in the top paragraph is what I said too; it takes a lot more power to get that much play between the slide and the pistol, and not generally a concern for most. It might be a quality assurance issue, but not a design issue.

[Jimmy Mac]

All of that still did not address the main issue.

[lockandrock]

So with are of these cyber engineers claiming the steyr will do this and that, I would like to bring up a key bit of information



----------------------------------------------------------

A Short Steyr History

Wilhelm Bubits is the mastermind of the Steyr pistol. He's a hobby shooter who at one time worked for Glock, and was also a uniformed officer and later a plainclothes officer.

Basically, Bubits was always critiquing pistols and finally decided to become a designer, so he could build what he envisioned. He actually offered his patents to Glock and was told that his designs did not follow their "philosophy" of design.

So, Bubits ended up with Steyr Mannlicher, another Austrian arms maker, in 1997. A key player to bring Bubits' dream into reality was Steyr's engineer, Fridrich Aigner. After two years of research and development, the pistol has been christened.

Steyr Mannlicher has been making quality firearms since 1864. Ayoob sums up Steyr's history well when he said that Steyr is a daring company that boldly goes where no gun manufacturer has gone before, and has been successful doing it.

For example: The Steyr Professional with it Cycolac stock was introduced 25 years ago and has changed the face of riflery, proving the superiority of the synthetic stock. And the Steyr AUG was the first extremely successful tactical rifle. Instead of just a custom-make of Jeff Cooper's Scout Rifle, Steyr dared to actually manufacture it. And everyone who shot it, has marveled at its execution.

So, with Steyr's two years of expensive development of the M series pistol line, I'm expecting to see an excellent new product that will not have to bow down to the competition.





----------------------------------------------------------------------

These original designers/engineers with numerous years in firearms between glock and steyr but yet a hand full here seems to know just how safe the stey S/M series are better than their own engineers. Come on lay it to rest.

[Handy]

Your article didn't mention the surprise loss of the GB at the Austrian pistol trials to a curtain ring manufacturer or the flop of the SPP in subgun circles. That was pretty key.


The 1mm of free play sounds like the last inertial bit of forward movement before the striker leaves the breachface. Glock has this feature as well. The spring only pushes the striker so far, the inertia of the striker takes it the rest of the way.

I didn't get what all that stuff about horizontal movement, etc. was about or how it applied. The test done was from the position the striker occupies before firing or any trigger pressure. From that position, if the sear let's go of the striker (due to a broken striker hook, for instance), the striker will fling forward hard enough for detonation. I can't see why a broken hook would cause any other horizontal movement but into the primer.

I think the engineer's comment might have been addressing pulling the slide up, or something. But his comments don't apply to a broken hook, which Twoblink didn't ask him about. So that was probably a waist of time.

[Waldo1]

I'm not a firearms expert, nor do I play one on the internet, but I have been and will continue to look for factual, verifiable documentation of problems/recalls/complaints regarding the Steyr M series. I have not found any so far. If you go to this website <http://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/Fi...ll%20Index.htm> you will find that there are hundreds of them catalogged. I e-mailed the site owner and he looked for updates and could find nothing on the Steyr M series. There are entries for a number of issues that I have heard of, including Jennings, Remington, Glock and Steyr set-trigger rifles- but nothing on Steyr handguns. I will keep looking and post further results if anyone is interested.

Thanks,

Waldo1

[tetchaje]

All of that still did not address the main issue.

I think that it partially does, Jimmy. The firing pin catch does have a steep angle to it where it mates with the steep-angled sear catch. If you were to simply lift the slide up, the movement of the mating surfaces would release tension on the striker by a full 2mm. This would make the cocked tension probably about 20% or less, and wouldn't detonate a primer.

As far as Handy's last comments were concerned, I would have to say that the firing pin catch, if it were to break, wouldn't break in this manner. The catch is heavily chamfered and is larger in area at the base (where the greatest cantilever moment is located) then at the mating surface between the two parts.

Fatigue cracks, and catastrophic failures in general, occur at dicontinuities in the material, whether it be a flaw or at a corner in the material. Flaw size dictates the concentration of stresses at any given location, as well as, the fatigue life of a part. With a chamfered base, the firing pin catch is much less prone to stress concentrations than it would have been if there were sharp edges between the pin-catch and pin-body. Furthermore, failure theory points to a failure being at the point where energy is conserved the most. If the catch where a parallepiped (how's that for a $0.50 word... ), the concentration would be at the base of the catch, and your failure concerns would be valid. With a tapered catch, where the greatest strength (i.e. the most material) is at the point where the moment is also the greatest, one would expect failure elsewhere on the part. A failure anywhere else wouldn't lead to a disharge because the sear-catch mates with the firing pin catch almost all the way up to the body of the pin. Thus, bending moments and bending stresses, and shear stresses are distributed throughout the pin catch, and the area which should have the greatest stress actually doesn't [have that maximum] because of the way the pin catch was designed.

I am looking forward to twoblink's response from Mr. Bubits, though.