Carry enough gun in bear country

[Ipecac]

A good friend of mine, an Alaska Department of Fish and Game biologist we'll call John, was charged by a brown bear last Thursday while doing some field biology work. The bear first became aware of his presence when John was about 75 yards away, then came on the run. My friend is well-schooled in bear behavior, having worked in remote parts of the state for over 15 years, and he did all the right things, except for choice of bullet.

John was carrying his .44 magnum S&W 629, loaded with semi-jacketed 240 grain hollowpoints. He thinks two shots hit the bear: one to the left shoulder, one right between the shoulder blades. The bear turned and ran into the woods, a bit unsteadily after the spine shot, and disappeared. John and another ADF&G biologist attempted to follow up the bear the next day with heavier artillery, but lost the trail after around 400 yards and 6 hours of tracking. It is their opinion, and mine, that the bear was not mortally wounded.

My point in posting this is that if you go into bear country always carry a gun, the biggest you are willing to pack, and load it with proper ammo. Big, tough bullets are necessary to penetrate sufficiently; in handguns only FMJ's and hardcast lead do the trick, not softpoints and especially not hollowpoints. In shotguns, sabot slugs are the order of the day, and in rifles use a premium controlled expansion bullet like x-bullets or a-frames.

This is the second friend that was charged or actually bitten in the last two years. The one who got chewed on had his gun in his pack, of all places.

When in bear country, be ready for bears.

[Morgan]

The Ankorage office of the US Fish and Game Department has issued a warning to campers about high levels of bear activity this spring. They advise hikers and campers to wear little bells and carry pepper spray for defense. They also inform one of how to determine the different kinds of bear scat. Black bear scat has many seeds and smells of blackberries. Grizzly bear scat has small bells and smells of pepper.

[joegerardi]

They way I was taught was ifs you see a bear, climb a tree: If the bear climbs the tree and kills you, it's a black bear. If the bear knocks the tree down and kills you, it's a grizzly.

[UKGrad]

We had a big thread over at AR15.com about "If you run across a bear and all you have is an AR, what type of ammo would you want and where would you aim?"

The general consensus was we'd shoot ourselves!

I personally do not hunt bears, but having seen them in the zoo and on "National Geographic" specials, I would recommend the RPG-7G as a carry weapon, edging out the AT4 because the RPG is reloadable!

[Ipecac]

I can tell you from personal experience that any thing you can carry in your hands is marginal. Then again, I'm not too up on the portability of tactical nukes, and that would be a bit of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

However, somethin's better than nuthin', so when I get serious it's the .375. Gotta get a big gun pretty soon...

[Kodiac]

Ah, guys...

I might not be too "With It" or maybe I am old fashioned...

But when I am out in bear country, in the woods... I take with me a good rifle.

You guys talking handguns? You must be some serious @ss kickers to be bold enough to face a bear with just a heater!

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RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE

[Ankeny]

It's kinda hard to carry a rifle when fly fishing in bear country. I spend a lot of time in grizzly bear management areas and I do believe 3 million heat unit pepper spray is the best defense.

Frankly, to kill a charging bear with a handgun you have to hit it in the brain. Carry the handgun that gives you the best chance of hitting the brain and it doesn't have to be a .44 magnum to get the job done. Visit Keith Rogan's bear page sometime.

[Gunslinger]

I usually just carry a big switch. For the really big grizzly I might break out the old Barlow.

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Gunslinger

We live in a time in which attitudes and deeds once respected as courageous and honorable are now scorned as being antiquated and subversive.

[Ipecac]

Gotta completely disagree on the pepper spray, the stuff is worse than useless on a motivated bear. A gal last year was badly mauled near McCarthy AK after she pepper sprayed the bear twice. I've had good friends spray entire cans at bears that were simply too close, but not attacking, and the bears virtually ignored it. Another friend's dog ate a can in his home. My personal experience is that many cans of bear spray do not even spray at all, and that the wind is likely to be in your face when you're having trouble.

As to handguns, I carry a .44 when just hiking or fishing because I am lazy. I've also seen bears shot point blank with the .41 mag softpoint that wouldn't even break the jaw of a small brown bear. Yes, you have to hit the brain or the spine to immediately kill or stop the bear, but I will trust nothing less than a full house deep penetrating .44 mag to do the job. And yes, I have seen Keith's page.

A final note: last year a friend and I were salmon fishing a stream that was heavily brushed along its banks. He always carries bear spray, I had my .44. We heard a bear whuff from about 20 yards downwind, deep in the brush. My friend immediately moved closer to me and said, "Is your gun loaded?" BTW, that friend is now purchasing a short-barrelled shotgun.

[Ankeny]

Ipecac:

Yeah, I know pepper spray is controversial stuff. However, the consensus amongst folks “in the know” is that pepper is your best defense. Here in Wyoming we have quite a few bear encounters every year, but perhaps not as many as in Alaska. Also, our bears are probably [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] compared to a really miffed brownie.

I know of four instances where pepper has been deployed with success. The most recent was last summer when a bear attacked an employee while he was working on a trail. He sprayed the bear almost point blank. The bear became disoriented, knocked the worker to the ground and disappeared into the woods. This is just one case where pepper worked. The spray was used from a chest holster without being drawn. A handgun would have never cleared the holster.

Two years ago a bear mauled a hunter. The hunter shot the bear point blank with his .375 H&H magnum. The bear died a short while later, but not before severely injuring the hunter. Of course pepper advocates claim spray would have disoriented the bear. I doubt anything would have stopped the bear since she was obviously a good example of what you refer to as a "motivated bear".

Personally, I think the very best defense is a 12 gauge shotgun, but how do you pack the thing where you can get at it and still have your hands free?

[Jim V]

Actually, CARRY ENOUGH GUN is good advice for any country, bear or people.



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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum

[DC]

The problem with pepper is delivery..spray, foam, aerosol. Ya get one chance and I wouldn't bank my life on something I use as a condiment.
Now a Desert Eagle .50 sounds workable

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"

[Ipecac]

Ankeny, I may not be the biggest expert in the world, but I have been a professional hunting guide here in Alaska since '93, guiding more hunts for bears than for any other animal. Also, I worked for 5 years doing field work for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game, at one time working within the confines of Katmai National Park, which is bear dense to say the least.

Sure, we can all tell stories of success and failure, and far be it from me to tell you what to do, but I do not know of any bear guides who recommend the spray, and I do not personally know any game biologists or technicians who carry the state-issued bear spray in the field in lieu of a rifle, pistol or shotgun. I have had many folks from Montana and Wyoming tout bear spray as the thing to use, maybe they've had better success than anyone I have heard of here. Do not discount the wind problem, however.

I agree that the .375 is marginal; I've seen many bears pack multiple heart/lung (.375 and up) shots around like bee stings. As you stated earlier, you have to hit them in the brain or spine to stop a charge or attack, and it has to have sufficient power to do the job.

12 gauge is an excellent choice, I use it myself. I prefer my .375, and when I get my .458, I'll prefer that. I guess my point is: bear spray is at best iffy, even when the can works and you hit them right in the eyes. If I hit them right with enough gun, we have a winner. Plus, many, many incidents occur because the bear is upwind, and hence unable to scent you. It'd take a stiff breeze to blow a 300 grain slug back into my face.

How do you pack the thing and still have your hands free? That's what makes living in bear country so interesting.

Good luck and may your spray never fail.

[HarryB]

I had a friend who was a guide. One day in the store/range we worked in a customer asked about a handgun for protection from bears. The guide tried to steer him away from a handgun but the customer insisted on a 44 Mag. The guide then told him that if he wanted to carry the .44 he should have a gunsmith remove the front sight first. When the customer inquired as to why, the guide replied "So it doesn't hurt as bad when the bear takes away your gun and shoves it up your a**."

[headroom]

I have to agree with the 12 ga. shotgun with slugs. On the matter of pepper spray, after reading a book on bear attacks in the last 10 years it stated that browns may be affected by pepper spray but that it has really no effect on black bears and might actually attract them, who knows. About fishing, i figure it would be better not to go alone and just have to sacrifice and take turns fishing.

[longhair]

this is all quite interesting as they are going to reintroduce bear down here in S.E.Ar. we have a very few down here right now, but the way they are talking we're going
to have a plentiful supply in the comming years. i believe they will be black bear,because, if i remember right they were native to Arkansas before they were most kiiled off. so this is very educational for me.. by all means carry on, i'm learning!

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what me worry? hell yes!!

[This message has been edited by longhair (edited June 16, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by longhair (edited June 16, 1999).]

[Jeff Thomas]

Let me ask in 'indelicate' question. Many National Parks have bears. I understand National Parks don't welcome firearms.

As a practical matter, if one is visiting a National Park where there are bears, would a .45ACP pistol, carried concealed, loaded with FMJ ammo be a reasonable choice? If it has to be used to protect against a bear attack, do you spend the rest of your life in prison because you defended your family? If you are discreet in carrying the firearm, are most rangers equally discreet?

I realize the best course is to avoid the encounter / problem. However, I've heard too many stories describing unintended and innocent contacts ... it sounds as though a bear attack can easily come even though you've followed the rules and watched your step.

Thanks.

[Paul Revere]

This is the problem with bureacracies today. They have more compassion for furry critters than the life of a human being. Their regulations favor the furry critters hands down (and are initiated by anti-hunting extremists who lobby for them). The pepper spray is the "kind and gentle" deterrant for large carnivores, not the most effective one.

The reason we are having so many bear/human conflicts today is primarily due to a surge in bear population. This surge originates from tighter restrictions on bear hunting (another result of anti-hunting lobbyists), which allows more and more bears to reproduce each year. This same ideology can be seen to affect mountain lion populations and whitetail deer populations in the U.S. today. Anti-hunting policy results in higher animal/human conflict.

[Mike in VA]

Just read about a hand cannon called the 475 Linebaugh (sp?) Field Grade. It reportedly slings a 425 gr bullet at 1475 fps (recoil is horrendous, however, make teh first on count). Sounds like just the ticket.
M2

[Ipecac]

Guns are verboten in National Parks, at least the ones up here. Bear spray is the most popular choice in these locations, but, speaking for myself, I used to carry my gun openly in the remote areas of the park. Most rangers would have kittens if they found out you had a gun; stay away from high traffic areas of the park if you are going to do this.

I think the .45 acp fmj would be extremely marginal. .454 Casulls are very popular in AK, and I did get the chance to shoot a guy's .475 Linebaugh several years ago at the Rabbit Creek Range in anchorage. Big time fun, but pricey. How much was the field grade model you read about? Back then they were strictly a custom model and quite expensive.

The above applies to brown/grizzly bears, black bears are much smaller and easier to kill, altho I wouldn't want to go to low on the power scale. There's lots more blackies out there, so if you have a problem, that's most likely going to be the culprit.

Harry, btw, the polite version of your joke uses the punchline, "so it doesn't chip your teeth when you stick it into your mouth to blow your head off after you get mauled."

[Kodiac]

The Main ingredient in pepper spray is Capsicum.
My wife is forceing me to take this HERBAL crap that is a mix of just about every herbal healing thing on the planet. Interestingly, one of the items in the ingredients is CAPSICUM! Nasty [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color].
Let me tell you - the stuff makes this Kodiac run for the hils!

"Here you go, Honey..."
"No, I dont want to take it."
"It's good for you! Take it!"
"Sweety, look... it has Capsicum in it!"
"So?"
"So?!? Capsicum is what we use in Pepper Spray... It's a weapon! I used that crap on Bad Guys!"
"Then get ready to get your @ss kicked like you did to those Bad Guys - cause YOUR TAKING IT!"



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RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE



[This message has been edited by Kodiac (edited June 16, 1999).]

[45King]

Ankeny>Personally, I think the very best defense is a 12 gauge shotgun, but how do you pack the thing where you can get at it and still have your hands free?

I have an old Sears pump that someone gave to me long ago. It had been sawed off behind the pistol grip, and the barrel was, uhhh, not to specs, shall we say? I discarded the out of spec barrel and replaced it (gun is actually a Win. 1200.) Installed sling swivel in the butt, and on the forend cap. With the right sling, it could be carried across the front of the body, out of the way, but still be ready (looong sling.) Of course, practice with slugs is mandatory, but you'd be surprised at how accurately it can be fired at close ranges, even without sights and no buttstock. I'm pretty sure I could send a couple of Brenekes up a griz's snout before he could get a taste of me if I've got at least a second or two of warning. Recoil isn't as bad as one might suspect, either. With the sawed-off wood pistol grip, it's similar to the "plow handle" effect of a Colt P...grip rolls in your hand, but since you're griping the forend, recovery is no problem.


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Shoot straight regards, Richard
The Shottist's Center forums.delphi.com/m/main.asp?sigdir=45acp45lc

[longhair]

Kodiak, ROTFLMAO

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what me worry? hell yes!!

[Gino]

You guys are forgetting the easiest way to stay healthy in bear country ........ Bring along someone who runs slower than you do!!!!

[GLV]

A friend of mine has a plan. When in bear country, always hike with a fat guy! GLV