Suicide of Columbine victim's mother

Prichard · October 22, 1999, 10:57 PM

By Colleen Slevin
The Associated Press

D E N V E R, Oct. 22 — The mother of a student wounded in the Columbine High School massacre walked into a suburban pawn shop today, asked to see a handgun, loaded it and killed herself with a shot to the head. Anne Marie Hochalter

Carla June Hochhalter’s suicide occurred about six months after her 17-year-old daughter, Anne Marie, was critically wounded in the April 20 tragedy and left partially paralyzed.
It was not immediately known what other factors might have contributed to Hochhalter’s suicide.
Hochhalter, 48, entered the Alpha Pawn Shop in Englewood this morning and asked to see a handgun.
When a clerk turned around to fill out paperwork, Hochhalter loaded the weapon with bullets that she brought, then fired one round that hit the wall and a second round into her head, Englewood police spokeswoman Leticia Castillo said.
The suicide was the latest shock for students and families in the Columbine area. Jefferson County School District officials planned to have grief counselors available this weekend to help deal with any trauma.
A student was arrested this week for allegedly threatening “to finish the job” begun by two student gunmen at Columbine.
In addition, CBS-TV was criticized by some in the community for broadcasting a snippet of the security camera videotape that was taken in the school cafeteria as the massacre unfolded.
Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, scattered gunfire and bombs at the school near Englewood, killing 12 students and a teacher and wounding about 26 others. Then they committed suicide.
Anne Marie Hochhalter suffered injuries to her spinal cord, back and chest when the gunmen fired at her in the parking lot. She moved her legs for the first time last week. Now a senior, she is taking a physics class at Columbine while a tutor teaches the rest of her courses at home.

Dennis · October 22, 1999, 11:39 PM

Oh, God. Where does it all end? It is sad beyond words.

Red Bull · October 23, 1999, 12:30 AM

It is odd that her daughter just moved her legs, a sign of tremendous hope, and then the mom caps herself in the head.

On top of that, but after an incident like Columbine, with the youth trying to make a statement that they need help, there are still youth there that apparently are still disturbed enough by their surroundings to make statements that they want to "finish the job". This all makes me wonder what the hell is going on in Littleton, Colorado? Sounds like a town out of a Stephen King novel. Are those people all whacked in the head or what? Any nuclear dumps nearby? Maybe something in the water?

**4V50 Gary** · October 23, 1999, 12:46 AM

That sucks. Regardless of why dear ole' mom did herself in, she probably caused more trauma for her daughter than the original injury. It really sucks.

Let the healing begin....

------------------
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

George Hill · October 23, 1999, 12:53 AM

A weak weak woman.
The whole town feels pain - and now even more so because of her. She had a girl that needed her.
Why must they continue to stretch out this tradgedy?

Of course they will probably seek to ban Pawn Shops now...

------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE

oberkommando · October 23, 1999, 01:08 AM

Right on Red, these people sound completly wacked out, but does seem that none of them need any firarms training, looks like they know exactly what they are doing. Maybe metal detectors, body cavity, and x-ray searches should be made to anyone entering a gun store or pawn shop. Of course this machinery would be purchased by the store owner(s).

------------------
The beauty of the second Amendment is that it is not needed until they try to take it. T JEFFERSON

SB · October 23, 1999, 02:03 AM

How tragic.

But it seems there are critical pieces of information missing to the story.

mic007tfp · October 23, 1999, 03:50 AM

Sad story, but kinda weird how she carried .38 ammo into the store. I wonder if she went in there expecting a gun to be chambered in .38? I would think 9mm would be a better choice.. Anyhow sad story still, feel so bad for the daughter.

Phillip · October 23, 1999, 04:39 AM

Just heard a radio blurb of a police PR officer. Stated basically that:
1)The are not sure of how many rounds of ammo Hochalter was carrying.

2)Whether or not she asked to see that particular gun.

3)That the gun held 6 shots, and was a .38 revolver.

Why this is so important as to be released to the press I really don't know. But, at least she did not shoot herself with a .50 BMG.

TR · October 23, 1999, 01:11 PM

The other good thing about this is that she didn't shoot the proprieter of the shop as well.

In all seriousness though, this was an act of cowardice in my mind. If she had wanted to hurt her daughter any further she couldn't have found a way. That young lady is going to be in a world of hurt for the next few years especially now.

As to how she knew the caliber of the gun? She had been in the hsop before looking... that's the most logical explanation. Of course she didn't tell the proprieter why she wanted the gun. My question is why did she do it in the shop? why not wait until you are alone, in your car. Sad thing is she probably thought she was doing her daughter a favor by not doing it at home.

WHy don't these people ever talk to someone first?

Ed Brunner · October 23, 1999, 02:58 PM

I am going to say that in all likelihood we cannot know what was in her mind. Different people react differently and really there is nothing to connect her act to the daughter or the Littleton shooting. The proximate cause could have been something altogether different.

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed

Mike H · October 23, 1999, 03:34 PM

I think that as supposedly responsible gun owners in this forum we should be seen to carry the flag for the decent law abiding handgun owner. I am ashamed to read some of the responses above, is this how we gun owners respond to the mental trauma of a mother with a paralysed daughter. I realise that personal attacks are not permitted in this forum, and I would not consciously seek to take such actions anyway, but when I see the moderator joining in this kind of behaviour it saddens me beyond my ability to put it into words.

------------------
Mike H

Prichard · October 23, 1999, 06:00 PM

Mike H,

????

John Hunter · October 23, 1999, 06:30 PM

Mike H,

???? What do you mean? I see a mother that thought more of escaping whatever her situation than of her family. Yes that is sad but my sympathy is for the family and friends not the mother that deserted them. Sorry if you find this point of view offensive but it is the way I feel. It would make no difference to me if instead of being dramatic and shooting herself in this manner she had simply sat in a closed garage with the car running until she died. The manner in no way has anything to do with my beliefe that she took the easy way out and hurt her family.

------------------
John - NRA - Lifer

John/az2 · October 23, 1999, 07:23 PM

Suicide is the ultimate selfish act.

------------------
John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

Ed Brunner · October 23, 1999, 10:32 PM

I have no idea how many of you ever seriously contemplated suicide. It can be called a selfish act only in retrospect. We cannot see this through her eyes. Obviously it made sense to her at the time. I cannot justify or condemn this act. Obviously suicide is an act of desperation that is irrational. So how can we rationally evaluate it?

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed

DC · October 23, 1999, 11:26 PM

Mike H...

The post by the moderator:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Dennis
Moderator
posted October 23, 1999 12:39 AM

Oh, God. Where does it all end? It is sad beyond words.[/quote]

Kindly explain to me how he is " joining in this kind of behaviour... "
I am interested how you can cubby hole his feelings or opinion and further elucidate about this matter any further than that which is contained in his post.

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!

H&K Fan · October 24, 1999, 07:05 AM

On a semi-related subject, eric klebold's (capitals deliberately dropped) parents are suing the school for not preventing the shootings. Seems they are being sued by another victim's family and so they "only" want to recover from the school what they stand to lose in court. I guess parental responsibility is an outmoded concept in that part of Colorado.

Mike H · October 24, 1999, 07:42 AM

I don't want to turn this into a mud slinging match because this plainly isn't the time or the place, but DC, I guess the comment that I found distastetful from the mods was "a weak weak woman", some would argue that taking your life requires courage not weakness, regarding the death by cop issue as a cowards way out for those who cannot pull the trigger themselves.

I don't want to deepen this because I correspond with many of you on matters purely to do with our mutual love of firearms, and do not wish to prejudice that. But the attitude I take is this, say someone who is undecided on the whole gun control issue found this site and wandered in looking for information, they read this thread, which way do you think it will push them, pro or anti, the latter I suspect. Another victim of the Columbine nightmare and here we are cracking jokes about her using .50 BMG's and all the inhabitants of Littleton being psychos, when you're walking on eggshells don't jump up and down.

I guess ultimately we'll beg to differ on this one.

Regards as ever,

------------------
Mike H

DC · October 24, 1999, 08:35 AM

Mike...

Well, we will never know her motives and if they are ever found out I doubt the news will print it as it will be old news.
However, her method of public suicide and the involvment of innocent parties who will surely be traumatized for a long long time is suspect and not indicative of a rationale mind.
Further, and from the perspective of a mother, to leave your disabled, recently injured and needy child is beyond comprehension and absolutely unnacceptable.

This woman may have been a nice and good person, but clearly her action was irrational and not indicative of strength. George did not pass judgement on her life, he commented on the action.

I understand your concern, however, there are many more topics routinely discussed on TFL that would "turn off" a fence-sitter.

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!

Dennis · October 24, 1999, 11:31 AM

Folks, I’m over my head here but I've read various “explanations” and opinions about suicide.

Suicide has been considered immoral - a crime against religion, family, social mores, or whatever.

Suicide has been considered a weakness - as though some moral fiber
(concept) had been ignored or not exercised adequately or properly.

Suicide has been considered both a societal problem and societal answer -
depending upon the evaluator.

Suicide has been considered an emotional problem - something to be
addressed with counseling.

Suicide has been considered a medical problem - something to be
addressed with chemicals or herbs to “put things in balance”.

Suicide has been considered an honorable requirement to “save face”.

Suicide has been considered heroic - a hero’s personal sacrifice to save
other people (e.g. greater love hath no man than he who lays down his life
for another); to support some cause (e.g. the Spartans at Thermopylae);
or even as an homage to discipline (as in the Charge of the Light Brigade).

Well educated specialists in medicine, psychology, psychiatry, and societal
attitudes debate unto death about suicide (pardon the irony) so I believe it
is rather narrow-minded for us, in our ignorance of the lady’s
circumstances, to pass absolute judgement on her or her ability to cope
with burdens of which we may be totally unaware.

The saddest part is that nobody apparently was able to discern that she
was no longer able to cope with her situation and that nobody could
intervene successfully before she implemented what has been called “a
permanent solution to a temporary problem.”

Therefore, I think Ed Brunner has stated the situation most accurately and
succinctly.

Mike H · October 24, 1999, 01:12 PM

Dennis,

You make me proud.

------------------
Mike H

John Hunter · October 25, 1999, 04:47 AM

Mike,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>when you're walking on eggshells don't jump up and down.[/quote]

You know I am just fed up enough that I plan on saying things just as I see them and if someone that is not decided comes along I don't much give a damn! I will not try and be something I am not to sway them, No that is the game the anti's play, so sorry, but I will tell them the facts and if ask my opinion I will give it without any sugur coating. If this makes them jump into the anti camp so be it. I would rather be honest than recruit through giving up my first amendment rights to speak my mind.

------------------
John - NRA - Lifer

longhair · October 25, 1999, 07:07 AM

The suicide of this woman, may have been due to something besides the apparent effects that the school shootings had on her daughter. Sometimes people get so depressed that they see no sense in going on, they feel useless, and the world would be a better place if they were gone, that there is no sense in the continued fighting of the feeling that everything is out of control
and there is nothing they can do to make it right. She may have very well had a history of depression long before her daughter was shot, and that was just the straw that broke the camels back. She may have felt that she let her daughter down, and couldn't face the shame of it anymore. It doesn't matter wether
she really didn't let her down or not, if that's what she had convinced herself of, then it's just a real as if she really did.
It's sad what this woman did to her family, but no one knows what was going through her mind.
Sorry for being so long winded..

------------------
RKBA
www.southernparty.org

Trevor · October 25, 1999, 07:15 PM

Mike H: In defense of this thread, remember that there is much sarcasm, gallows humor, and raw opinions getting tossed about here. Having been accused of "insensitivity" myself, my usual response is similar to John Hunter's. I have no interest in playing nice. Does that attitude make me a bad person? If so, I can deal with it.

October 22, 1999, 10:57 PM	#1
Prichard Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 1999 Posts: 263	By Colleen Slevin The Associated Press D E N V E R, Oct. 22 — The mother of a student wounded in the Columbine High School massacre walked into a suburban pawn shop today, asked to see a handgun, loaded it and killed herself with a shot to the head. Anne Marie Hochalter Carla June Hochhalter’s suicide occurred about six months after her 17-year-old daughter, Anne Marie, was critically wounded in the April 20 tragedy and left partially paralyzed. It was not immediately known what other factors might have contributed to Hochhalter’s suicide. Hochhalter, 48, entered the Alpha Pawn Shop in Englewood this morning and asked to see a handgun. When a clerk turned around to fill out paperwork, Hochhalter loaded the weapon with bullets that she brought, then fired one round that hit the wall and a second round into her head, Englewood police spokeswoman Leticia Castillo said. The suicide was the latest shock for students and families in the Columbine area. Jefferson County School District officials planned to have grief counselors available this weekend to help deal with any trauma. A student was arrested this week for allegedly threatening “to finish the job” begun by two student gunmen at Columbine. In addition, CBS-TV was criticized by some in the community for broadcasting a snippet of the security camera videotape that was taken in the school cafeteria as the massacre unfolded. Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, scattered gunfire and bombs at the school near Englewood, killing 12 students and a teacher and wounding about 26 others. Then they committed suicide. Anne Marie Hochhalter suffered injuries to her spinal cord, back and chest when the gunmen fired at her in the parking lot. She moved her legs for the first time last week. Now a senior, she is taking a physics class at Columbine while a tutor teaches the rest of her courses at home.

October 22, 1999, 11:39 PM	#2
Dennis Staff Emeritus Join Date: November 23, 1998 Location: a small forest in Texas Posts: 7,079	Oh, God. Where does it all end? It is sad beyond words.

October 23, 1999, 12:30 AM	#3
Red Bull Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 1999 Posts: 564	It is odd that her daughter just moved her legs, a sign of tremendous hope, and then the mom caps herself in the head. On top of that, but after an incident like Columbine, with the youth trying to make a statement that they need help, there are still youth there that apparently are still disturbed enough by their surroundings to make statements that they want to "finish the job". This all makes me wonder what the hell is going on in Littleton, Colorado? Sounds like a town out of a Stephen King novel. Are those people all whacked in the head or what? Any nuclear dumps nearby? Maybe something in the water?

October 23, 1999, 12:46 AM	#4
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	That sucks. Regardless of why dear ole' mom did herself in, she probably caused more trauma for her daughter than the original injury. It really sucks. Let the healing begin.... ------------------ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

October 23, 1999, 12:53 AM	#5
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	A weak weak woman. The whole town feels pain - and now even more so because of her. She had a girl that needed her. Why must they continue to stretch out this tradgedy? Of course they will probably seek to ban Pawn Shops now... ------------------ "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE

October 23, 1999, 01:08 AM	#6
oberkommando Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 1999 Posts: 1,158	Right on Red, these people sound completly wacked out, but does seem that none of them need any firarms training, looks like they know exactly what they are doing. Maybe metal detectors, body cavity, and x-ray searches should be made to anyone entering a gun store or pawn shop. Of course this machinery would be purchased by the store owner(s). ------------------ The beauty of the second Amendment is that it is not needed until they try to take it. T JEFFERSON

October 23, 1999, 02:03 AM	#7
SB Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 1998 Posts: 415	How tragic. But it seems there are critical pieces of information missing to the story.

October 23, 1999, 03:50 AM	#8
mic007tfp Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Posts: 63	Sad story, but kinda weird how she carried .38 ammo into the store. I wonder if she went in there expecting a gun to be chambered in .38? I would think 9mm would be a better choice.. Anyhow sad story still, feel so bad for the daughter.

October 23, 1999, 04:39 AM	#9
Phillip Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 1999 Location: TX Posts: 403	Just heard a radio blurb of a police PR officer. Stated basically that: 1)The are not sure of how many rounds of ammo Hochalter was carrying. 2)Whether or not she asked to see that particular gun. 3)That the gun held 6 shots, and was a .38 revolver. Why this is so important as to be released to the press I really don't know. But, at least she did not shoot herself with a .50 BMG.

October 23, 1999, 01:11 PM	#10
TR Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 1999 Posts: 186	The other good thing about this is that she didn't shoot the proprieter of the shop as well. In all seriousness though, this was an act of cowardice in my mind. If she had wanted to hurt her daughter any further she couldn't have found a way. That young lady is going to be in a world of hurt for the next few years especially now. As to how she knew the caliber of the gun? She had been in the hsop before looking... that's the most logical explanation. Of course she didn't tell the proprieter why she wanted the gun. My question is why did she do it in the shop? why not wait until you are alone, in your car. Sad thing is she probably thought she was doing her daughter a favor by not doing it at home. WHy don't these people ever talk to someone first?

October 23, 1999, 02:58 PM	#11
Ed Brunner Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Natchez, MS, USA Posts: 2,562	I am going to say that in all likelihood we cannot know what was in her mind. Different people react differently and really there is nothing to connect her act to the daughter or the Littleton shooting. The proximate cause could have been something altogether different. ------------------ Better days to be, Ed

October 23, 1999, 03:34 PM	#12
Mike H Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 1999 Posts: 1,159	I think that as supposedly responsible gun owners in this forum we should be seen to carry the flag for the decent law abiding handgun owner. I am ashamed to read some of the responses above, is this how we gun owners respond to the mental trauma of a mother with a paralysed daughter. I realise that personal attacks are not permitted in this forum, and I would not consciously seek to take such actions anyway, but when I see the moderator joining in this kind of behaviour it saddens me beyond my ability to put it into words. ------------------ Mike H

October 23, 1999, 06:00 PM	#13
Prichard Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 1999 Posts: 263	Mike H, ????

October 23, 1999, 06:30 PM	#14
John Hunter Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 1999 Location: Lake Station, IN USA Posts: 107	Mike H, ???? What do you mean? I see a mother that thought more of escaping whatever her situation than of her family. Yes that is sad but my sympathy is for the family and friends not the mother that deserted them. Sorry if you find this point of view offensive but it is the way I feel. It would make no difference to me if instead of being dramatic and shooting herself in this manner she had simply sat in a closed garage with the car running until she died. The manner in no way has anything to do with my beliefe that she took the easy way out and hurt her family. ------------------ John - NRA - Lifer

October 23, 1999, 07:23 PM	#15
John/az2 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 1999 Location: Arizona Posts: 2,729	Suicide is the ultimate selfish act. ------------------ John/az "The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

October 23, 1999, 10:32 PM	#16
Ed Brunner Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Natchez, MS, USA Posts: 2,562	I have no idea how many of you ever seriously contemplated suicide. It can be called a selfish act only in retrospect. We cannot see this through her eyes. Obviously it made sense to her at the time. I cannot justify or condemn this act. Obviously suicide is an act of desperation that is irrational. So how can we rationally evaluate it? ------------------ Better days to be, Ed

October 23, 1999, 11:26 PM	#17
DC Moderator Emeritus Join Date: September 30, 1998 Location: Calif Posts: 4,229	Mike H... The post by the moderator: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Dennis Moderator posted October 23, 1999 12:39 AM Oh, God. Where does it all end? It is sad beyond words.[/quote] Kindly explain to me how he is " joining in this kind of behaviour... " I am interested how you can cubby hole his feelings or opinion and further elucidate about this matter any further than that which is contained in his post. ------------------ "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!

October 24, 1999, 07:05 AM	#18
H&K Fan Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 1999 Posts: 138	On a semi-related subject, eric klebold's (capitals deliberately dropped) parents are suing the school for not preventing the shootings. Seems they are being sued by another victim's family and so they "only" want to recover from the school what they stand to lose in court. I guess parental responsibility is an outmoded concept in that part of Colorado.

October 24, 1999, 07:42 AM	#19
Mike H Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 1999 Posts: 1,159	I don't want to turn this into a mud slinging match because this plainly isn't the time or the place, but DC, I guess the comment that I found distastetful from the mods was "a weak weak woman", some would argue that taking your life requires courage not weakness, regarding the death by cop issue as a cowards way out for those who cannot pull the trigger themselves. I don't want to deepen this because I correspond with many of you on matters purely to do with our mutual love of firearms, and do not wish to prejudice that. But the attitude I take is this, say someone who is undecided on the whole gun control issue found this site and wandered in looking for information, they read this thread, which way do you think it will push them, pro or anti, the latter I suspect. Another victim of the Columbine nightmare and here we are cracking jokes about her using .50 BMG's and all the inhabitants of Littleton being psychos, when you're walking on eggshells don't jump up and down. I guess ultimately we'll beg to differ on this one. Regards as ever, ------------------ Mike H

October 24, 1999, 08:35 AM	#20
DC Moderator Emeritus Join Date: September 30, 1998 Location: Calif Posts: 4,229	Mike... Well, we will never know her motives and if they are ever found out I doubt the news will print it as it will be old news. However, her method of public suicide and the involvment of innocent parties who will surely be traumatized for a long long time is suspect and not indicative of a rationale mind. Further, and from the perspective of a mother, to leave your disabled, recently injured and needy child is beyond comprehension and absolutely unnacceptable. This woman may have been a nice and good person, but clearly her action was irrational and not indicative of strength. George did not pass judgement on her life, he commented on the action. I understand your concern, however, there are many more topics routinely discussed on TFL that would "turn off" a fence-sitter. ------------------ "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!

October 24, 1999, 11:31 AM	#21
Dennis Staff Emeritus Join Date: November 23, 1998 Location: a small forest in Texas Posts: 7,079	Folks, I’m over my head here but I've read various “explanations” and opinions about suicide. Suicide has been considered immoral - a crime against religion, family, social mores, or whatever. Suicide has been considered a weakness - as though some moral fiber (concept) had been ignored or not exercised adequately or properly. Suicide has been considered both a societal problem and societal answer - depending upon the evaluator. Suicide has been considered an emotional problem - something to be addressed with counseling. Suicide has been considered a medical problem - something to be addressed with chemicals or herbs to “put things in balance”. Suicide has been considered an honorable requirement to “save face”. Suicide has been considered heroic - a hero’s personal sacrifice to save other people (e.g. greater love hath no man than he who lays down his life for another); to support some cause (e.g. the Spartans at Thermopylae); or even as an homage to discipline (as in the Charge of the Light Brigade). Well educated specialists in medicine, psychology, psychiatry, and societal attitudes debate unto death about suicide (pardon the irony) so I believe it is rather narrow-minded for us, in our ignorance of the lady’s circumstances, to pass absolute judgement on her or her ability to cope with burdens of which we may be totally unaware. The saddest part is that nobody apparently was able to discern that she was no longer able to cope with her situation and that nobody could intervene successfully before she implemented what has been called “a permanent solution to a temporary problem.” Therefore, I think Ed Brunner has stated the situation most accurately and succinctly.

October 24, 1999, 01:12 PM	#22
Mike H Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 1999 Posts: 1,159	Dennis, You make me proud. ------------------ Mike H

October 25, 1999, 04:47 AM	#23
John Hunter Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 1999 Location: Lake Station, IN USA Posts: 107	Mike, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>when you're walking on eggshells don't jump up and down.[/quote] You know I am just fed up enough that I plan on saying things just as I see them and if someone that is not decided comes along I don't much give a damn! I will not try and be something I am not to sway them, No that is the game the anti's play, so sorry, but I will tell them the facts and if ask my opinion I will give it without any sugur coating. If this makes them jump into the anti camp so be it. I would rather be honest than recruit through giving up my first amendment rights to speak my mind. ------------------ John - NRA - Lifer

October 25, 1999, 07:07 AM	#24
longhair Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 1998 Location: CSA Posts: 632	The suicide of this woman, may have been due to something besides the apparent effects that the school shootings had on her daughter. Sometimes people get so depressed that they see no sense in going on, they feel useless, and the world would be a better place if they were gone, that there is no sense in the continued fighting of the feeling that everything is out of control and there is nothing they can do to make it right. She may have very well had a history of depression long before her daughter was shot, and that was just the straw that broke the camels back. She may have felt that she let her daughter down, and couldn't face the shame of it anymore. It doesn't matter wether she really didn't let her down or not, if that's what she had convinced herself of, then it's just a real as if she really did. It's sad what this woman did to her family, but no one knows what was going through her mind. Sorry for being so long winded.. ------------------ RKBA www.southernparty.org

October 25, 1999, 07:15 PM	#25
Trevor Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 1999 Posts: 384	Mike H: In defense of this thread, remember that there is much sarcasm, gallows humor, and raw opinions getting tossed about here. Having been accused of "insensitivity" myself, my usual response is similar to John Hunter's. I have no interest in playing nice. Does that attitude make me a bad person? If so, I can deal with it.