Which OF THESE CARTRIDGES for Bear?

DougB · May 4, 2000, 02:41 AM

Sorry if this is somewhat of a rehash, but the more I read, the more options I discover, and the less sure I am about what to get. I want a compact, very light weight, very corrosion resistant pistol to take backpacking, fishing, canoeing, rafting, etc. I'm considering a compact semi-auto (Kel-tec, Taurus, Kahr, etc.) in 9mm, .40S&W, 357Sig, or .45ACP.

I feel fine with ANY of these cartridges for defense against humans. The question is, which would be "least inadequate" for black bear or mountain lion? For this, I think penetration will count for more than expansion or caliber.

I realize that the 9mm is probably outclassed by the others (although it probably penetrates pretty well with FMJ ammo). But I'm much less sure how the others would compare if penetration is the major criteria.

Of course, I admit that I'm also considering moving up to a 10MM (Glock 29), or maybe one of the Taurus Titanium Tracker revolvers in .357 or .41 mag. But I'm reluctant to increase the size and weight that much (let's face it, the chances of really needing to shoot a bear are pretty remote, and I don't travel in Grizzly country). Your comments comparing the 9mm, .40S&W, 357Sig, and .45ACP for THIS PURPOSE will be appreciated. Thanks.

Doug

George Hill · May 4, 2000, 02:56 AM

For Bear?
None of the above. I would go .45 Colt or .44 Magnum in a nice big framed revolver.
Maybe even .454 Casull.
Stoked with loads featuring a very heavy hardcast bullet.
Bears are quite serious should they set there eyes on you.
The good news is - these loads are much noisier and would do a better job at sending the bear racing away with out having to actually shoot the animal.

JMC · May 4, 2000, 05:18 AM

NONE of the above.

I have taken two black bear in Maine, hunting legally, with .44 Magnum handguns using 300 gr. bullets each time.

Both bears were hit good and neither died instantly. The bigger of the two, approx. 325 lbs., traveled a few hundred yards before dying.

------------------

Jim - NRA Life Member

www.geocities.com/jimc_07874/home.html

[This message has been edited by JMC (edited May 04, 2000).]

George Hill · May 4, 2000, 06:07 AM

And an angry wounded bear could travel a couple hundred yards UP YOUR BACKSIDE...
So you want to make certain your using a weapon that can put that critter down NOW.
Or as near to NOW as possible.

Desert Dog · May 4, 2000, 06:22 AM

The cartridges you suggest will merely piss a bear off... At a MINIMUM... a .41 magnum handloaded with Keith 250 gr hardcast bullets. I wouldn't feel comfortable with THAT...

------------------
.45 Super... Fat and FAST...

"No provision in our Constitution ought to be dearer to man than that which protects the rights of conscience against the enterprises of the civil authority" - Thomas Jefferson

Bullwinkle · May 4, 2000, 08:55 AM

I've seen several threads of this type. It seem that the only commonly available auto pistol cartidge (since thats what it seems you are looking at) chambered for realistic guns (i.e. not a Desert Eagle or Auto Mag) which might be reliable on bear is a very very very hot 10mm handload from a long barrel (usually a glock 20 with the 6in. hunting barrel) wielded with extreme precision and taking full advangate of the high cyclic rate and large magazine. FWIW

IMHO the best _concealable_ backcountry gun is the 10mm Glock 29. The 29 will probably be my next purchase. While the 29 wont do much for bear (better than a sharp stick though) it should be hell on cougars (a more consistent problem around here) and twofooters. For corrosion resistance the Glock cannont be beat. If concealability is not an issue go with the 44/454.

[This message has been edited by Bullwinkle (edited May 04, 2000).]

EXPLORER · May 4, 2000, 12:06 PM

The topic that won't go away....for what it's worth, here is my setup.
1) True wilderness off-trail EXPLORING: SW 629 3" .44 magnum loaded with federal 300 gr. ammo.
2) Campsite: Glock 30 .45 loaded with Winchester 185 gr. +p truncated cone, with a coach gun 12 gauge nearby, one barrel slug, the other buckshot.

DougB · May 4, 2000, 02:07 PM

Thanks for the comments guys, but I already know that a .44 Mag or larger caliber would be better. I have one. If I were hunting for bear, I'd carry one of these 3 or 4 pound handguns (or, more realistically, a rifle).

But I figure there is maybe a 3% chance I'll have to shoot a bear in self defense in my lifetime. And, in the unlikely event that it happens, I think a head or spine shot (or three) with any of these calibers with a FMJ bullet at close range would probably work most of the time. And a poorly placed shot probably won't work, no matter what handgun I'm shooting. I'm sure having a slightly heavier bullet going a few hundred FPS faster might make the difference in some cases, but I'm not willing to carry three times the weight, year after year, to get this edge.

I personally know someone who killed a bear with .22 pistol (the bear was repeatedly tearing up his camp). I believe it was a one-shot kill. I wouldn't want to try it, but lets not say that nothing short of a heavy magnum can work.

So, if FORCED to choose between 9mm, .40S&W, 357Sig, or .45ACP for bear defense, which cartridge/load would likely give the best penetration and be most effective?

By the way, I agree that the 10mm would be better, and I am still considering the Glock 29, but I'm not sure that there are really many instances where the same shot made with the other cartridges would fail, but the 10mm would work.

I'm basically looking for "the .32ACP of bear guns" if you know what I mean - I'll be carrying for the same reason people carry little .32s for self defense - not because they are the "ideal" cartridge or gun, but because they are far better than nothing (which is the likely alternative). It has got to be lightweight (16 oz or so) and corrosion resistant. Thanks.

Doug

Jay Baker · May 4, 2000, 02:16 PM

Any of those calibers about which you asked, would be sufficient for mountain lion. I have a friend who was a professional lion/bear guide, now retired, who used to kill mountain lions with his Ruger Single Six .22LR.

But, if a black bear charges you, you would be better off with what the above posters suggested, .45LC, .44 Mag. .41 Mag., or .454 Casull. I killed a 400 pound black bear in the central Sierra of Kalif., several years ago, with my .41 Mag., Mdl. 57 S&W, using my handload of 210 gr. Sierra JHP. But the bear was treed, and I was with two, armed (also .41 mag) professional guides, with dogs.

I carry it today, or my Ruger B.H. in .45 Long Colt (heavy handloads)in the Idaho boonies. There are lots of bears here in Idaho, including grizzlies.

Odds are, however, you won't have any trouble with either bears or mountain lions, but in my opinion, it never hurts to have "an insurance policy." Better than becoming a statistic, of which "odds" are determined.

Sometimes, in many parts of the country, you will be more in danger from feral dogs, than the true "wild" critters. I've had a set-to with feral dogs and believe me, that can get very, very exciting.

EDIT: Given your situation and hiking (Kalif.) I think I'd go with a Glock .40 and conceal it in a good holster. (My carry pistol when not carrying the above I mentioned, is my Colt L.W. Commander in .45ACP. It'll handle about anything I'd run up against in the two legged, or feral category.)
FWIW. J.B.

[This message has been edited by Jay Baker (edited May 04, 2000).]

FUD · May 4, 2000, 02:43 PM

Out of the ones you offered, I would recommed the .45ACP -- when it comes to bears, the bigger/heavier the bullet, the better!
Share what you know, learn what you don't -- FUD

Jack 99 · May 4, 2000, 02:51 PM

OF THE CARTRIDGES MENTIONED (geez, does anyone follow directions anymore?) my vote is for the .45 ACP with 230 gr FMJ. Should have the most penetration.

355sigfan · May 4, 2000, 04:03 PM

Black bear and Brown bear are different critters. For black bear I would feel ok with my 357 sig or 10mm. But for Brown bear only my lever action 45-70 backed up by a 5 shot 45 colt Hamilton BOwen conversion on a redhawk would do firing a 400 grain bullet in the rifle at 1800 and a 350 grain bullet in the pistol at 1350.
PAT

------------------
I intend to go into harms way.

Spectre · May 4, 2000, 04:50 PM

A "Tracker" .41 isn't THAT big- 24 oz. That's what I'd go for. Aside from that, shoulder-stabilized .45 ACP hardball.

Bullwinkle · May 4, 2000, 05:11 PM

Given 9, 357, 40, 45,.... I'd think a choose a 45, hanloaded hot with a 200gr. semiwadcutter. The 45 cause it has the highest un expanded diameter and the SWC over the FMJ cause it tends to do a little more cutting and less pushing aside.

BigMike · May 4, 2000, 05:40 PM

Get the .45, possibly the Glock. Your parameter for carrying it is somewhat tight. I live here in Washington, and backpack/camp/hike quite a bit. In all my years of enjoying the great outdoors, most of my problems have come from other "humans" not the black/brown bears I may run across. If you could expand your req's I'd look into a Ruger/Taurus revolver in .41 cal or higher. Mike

JimFox · May 4, 2000, 05:48 PM

Quote:

I think a head or spine shot (or three) with any of these calibers with a FMJ bullet at close range would probably work most of the time. And a poorly placed shot probably won't work, no matter what handgun I'm shooting.

IMHO you're exactly correct. Actually a bear's skull is fairly thin and from an upward angle his spine is not all that well protected. If his blood isn't up and you can place your shot with precision (for example if you wake up and he has ahold of your foot and is trying to drag you out of the tent) any of them will do. And the heavier the slug the better in all calibers.

If all hell is breaking loose and the bear's blood (and your's) is up - then the standard I'd suggest is whatever handgun you have that you can bring - from the leather - in less than a second and a half from first notice and hit a playing card sized target at 15 feet. The trick is that the playing card is apt to be moving in a somewhat random pattern at upwards of 20 - 30 miles and hour.

10 mm would be a good round in an auto - I'd also suggest - if you handload - playing around with some of the 250 or 260 grain jacketed softpoints in the .45 ACP.

Another thing to consider in the old Auto/Revolver debate - if you and the bear are both wrestling around on the ground, then you may well only have one shot with the auto because some part of the bear's anatomy or yours hinders the slide cycle. And some autos are sensitive to muzzle contact, i.e., when pressed against the target pressure can move the slide slightly out of battery.

If I were buying, I'd look long and strong at one of the lightweight .41s, .44s or .45 Colt in a double action revolver. Since I don't own any of them, if I were to carry something that I already have, it'd be a full size 1911 style with handloads using the 260 grain hornaday or a S&W Model 19 snubbie with 180 to 200 grain handloads.

My real preference would be a 12 gage and/or one of Marlin's fine little 45/70 lever rifles. But they aren't discret to carry.

I'd also say that your risk of lethal bear encounters is probably less that the 3% you estimated - unless you just flat live in the woods for the rest of your days. But, I understand they do get pushy when conditioned to well lardered camp sites in a lot of the national forests in your area.

------------------
Jim Fox

Gipperdog · May 4, 2000, 06:04 PM

If I were absolutely forced to defend myself with any of the cartridges you mentioned, I'd go with the 45 ACP using the heaviest loads I could find. If I had a choice in the matter to pick one for myself for a "Selfdefense" scenario, I'd go with the .500 Linebaugh pushing a 440 gr. bullet at 1300 fps out of a 5 1/12 Bisley style revolver.

------------------
Guard Freedom from those that "want to do it for the Children."

Sgt.K · May 4, 2000, 07:05 PM

And now for something completely different:

Bear Pepper Spray and whichever caliber handgun you feel most comfortable with.

Just my 2cts.

Stay safe.

Sgt.K

Ron Ankeny · May 4, 2000, 07:06 PM

I choose to carry a .45 auto loaded with hard cast 230 grainers.

I shoot with the firearms trainer for the G&F Grizzly bear management team and he is really interesting to talk to. His recommendation (and the same is true of all members of the team) is good old pepper spray.

BTW, the bear team has a moving target and man is it cool. Comes right at you at 15-20 miles per hour. None of the guys can hit it anyway so what's the difference? Seriously, to stop a balck bear in his tracks you need to hit him in the brain or central nervous system and the .45 auto will accomplish that if you do your part.

Steve Smith · May 4, 2000, 10:38 PM

The 9mm will be fine for a bullet to your brain. With choices like the ones you have, that's the only caliber you need, and you'll only need one round. Yes, choosing one of those calibers for bear defense IS that serious. On the other hand, if you'd like to see your grandchildren grow up, do as others have said, and carry a hot .41 Mag at the minimum.

whiskey · May 5, 2000, 09:06 AM

Listen to SGT K. Pepper spray will work better on a bear in an attack situation than almost any gun. period. According to Alaska Fish and Game State Troopers.

Small black bears shot with very large rifles often travel up to 100 yards.

Get a gun for people and pepper spray for bears.

Fred J. Drumheller · May 5, 2000, 09:29 AM

If you've got to carry a semi-auto, I'd go with the 10mm, or a .45 Super. Personally, I carry a S&W (SORRY!) .41 Mountain Gun loaded with H&G Keith Type 225gr (Hardcast in pure Lin-o-Type) over 21gr of WW296 for circa 1,300fps.

The National Park Service has put out a bear Alert for the Parks. They recommend that you carry pepper spray and wear small bells to alert the bears to your presence and give them time to vacate the area. If the bear persists in its agressive behavior, then resort to the pepper spray.

They also recommend that you familiarize yourself with the differences in the scats between black & grizzly bears. Black bear scat is smaller, and contains berry seeds and small animal bones & fur. Grizzly bear scat is bigger, contains small bells & smells like pepper spray.

Yr. Obt. Svnt.

------------------
Fred J. Drumheller
NRA Life
NRA Golden Eagle

Ron Ankeny · May 5, 2000, 01:39 PM

Whiskey:

Yup, that's what I do. Pepper spray where it can be rapidly deployed and a pistol (the one I like) in case I want to make some noise.

tackdriver · May 5, 2000, 03:05 PM

Just keep in mind that brown bears attack because of territory. Black bears attack because they're hungry.
I still don't understand these threads:
"Uh, I might get eaten by a bear and I'm going to buy a gun to protect myself" which is always followed by some unreasonable limitation on the caliber or size as if these things were more important than their life.
Even if the chances of getting attacked are only 3%, what's the point of buying a gun that *might* work instead of one that WILL?

-for the "my grandpa once killed a grizzly with a BB gun," right and JFK was killed by one bullet.

[This message has been edited by tackdriver (edited May 05, 2000).]

Erik · May 5, 2000, 04:46 PM

(frown on face) If I must limit myself to you choices than I'd pick the .45acp. Don't worry about it too much, though. Under gunned is under gunned.

But you are kidding yourself if you believe it is adequate for bear defense. I have yet to read about the "calmly executed, well placed shot delivered at twenty paces" which ended an attack by a bear. I have read numerous accounts on how lighting fast the attack will come and how the odds of getting more than two very fast shots off are slim. If you are serious, start at the .41 magnum and look upward in power from there.

Someone will state that Alaskan law enforcement has done studies on what can kill their brown bears. Under situations similar to those encountered while hunting, a perfectly placed .38 will do the job. So the bear experts in Alaska all carry .38s, right? No. The Alaskan Fish and Wildlife employees are issued .44 magnums and .45-70 lever actions with powerful cartridges.

May 4, 2000, 02:41 AM	#1
DougB Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 1999 Posts: 838	Sorry if this is somewhat of a rehash, but the more I read, the more options I discover, and the less sure I am about what to get. I want a compact, very light weight, very corrosion resistant pistol to take backpacking, fishing, canoeing, rafting, etc. I'm considering a compact semi-auto (Kel-tec, Taurus, Kahr, etc.) in 9mm, .40S&W, 357Sig, or .45ACP. I feel fine with ANY of these cartridges for defense against humans. The question is, which would be "least inadequate" for black bear or mountain lion? For this, I think penetration will count for more than expansion or caliber. I realize that the 9mm is probably outclassed by the others (although it probably penetrates pretty well with FMJ ammo). But I'm much less sure how the others would compare if penetration is the major criteria. Of course, I admit that I'm also considering moving up to a 10MM (Glock 29), or maybe one of the Taurus Titanium Tracker revolvers in .357 or .41 mag. But I'm reluctant to increase the size and weight that much (let's face it, the chances of really needing to shoot a bear are pretty remote, and I don't travel in Grizzly country). Your comments comparing the 9mm, .40S&W, 357Sig, and .45ACP for THIS PURPOSE will be appreciated. Thanks. Doug

May 4, 2000, 02:56 AM	#2
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	For Bear? None of the above. I would go .45 Colt or .44 Magnum in a nice big framed revolver. Maybe even .454 Casull. Stoked with loads featuring a very heavy hardcast bullet. Bears are quite serious should they set there eyes on you. The good news is - these loads are much noisier and would do a better job at sending the bear racing away with out having to actually shoot the animal.

May 4, 2000, 05:18 AM	#3
JMC Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 1999 Location: FL Posts: 809	NONE of the above. I have taken two black bear in Maine, hunting legally, with .44 Magnum handguns using 300 gr. bullets each time. Both bears were hit good and neither died instantly. The bigger of the two, approx. 325 lbs., traveled a few hundred yards before dying. ------------------ Jim - NRA Life Member www.geocities.com/jimc_07874/home.html [This message has been edited by JMC (edited May 04, 2000).]

May 4, 2000, 06:07 AM	#4
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	And an angry wounded bear could travel a couple hundred yards UP YOUR BACKSIDE... So you want to make certain your using a weapon that can put that critter down NOW. Or as near to NOW as possible.

May 4, 2000, 06:22 AM	#5
Desert Dog Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 1999 Location: Deep East Texas Posts: 474	The cartridges you suggest will merely piss a bear off... At a MINIMUM... a .41 magnum handloaded with Keith 250 gr hardcast bullets. I wouldn't feel comfortable with THAT... ------------------ .45 Super... Fat and FAST... "No provision in our Constitution ought to be dearer to man than that which protects the rights of conscience against the enterprises of the civil authority" - Thomas Jefferson

May 4, 2000, 08:55 AM	#6
Bullwinkle Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2000 Posts: 283	I've seen several threads of this type. It seem that the only commonly available auto pistol cartidge (since thats what it seems you are looking at) chambered for realistic guns (i.e. not a Desert Eagle or Auto Mag) which might be reliable on bear is a very very very hot 10mm handload from a long barrel (usually a glock 20 with the 6in. hunting barrel) wielded with extreme precision and taking full advangate of the high cyclic rate and large magazine. FWIW IMHO the best _concealable_ backcountry gun is the 10mm Glock 29. The 29 will probably be my next purchase. While the 29 wont do much for bear (better than a sharp stick though) it should be hell on cougars (a more consistent problem around here) and twofooters. For corrosion resistance the Glock cannont be beat. If concealability is not an issue go with the 44/454. [This message has been edited by Bullwinkle (edited May 04, 2000).]

May 4, 2000, 12:06 PM	#7
EXPLORER Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Posts: 74	The topic that won't go away....for what it's worth, here is my setup. 1) True wilderness off-trail EXPLORING: SW 629 3" .44 magnum loaded with federal 300 gr. ammo. 2) Campsite: Glock 30 .45 loaded with Winchester 185 gr. +p truncated cone, with a coach gun 12 gauge nearby, one barrel slug, the other buckshot.

May 4, 2000, 02:07 PM	#8
DougB Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 1999 Posts: 838	Thanks for the comments guys, but I already know that a .44 Mag or larger caliber would be better. I have one. If I were hunting for bear, I'd carry one of these 3 or 4 pound handguns (or, more realistically, a rifle). But I figure there is maybe a 3% chance I'll have to shoot a bear in self defense in my lifetime. And, in the unlikely event that it happens, I think a head or spine shot (or three) with any of these calibers with a FMJ bullet at close range would probably work most of the time. And a poorly placed shot probably won't work, no matter what handgun I'm shooting. I'm sure having a slightly heavier bullet going a few hundred FPS faster might make the difference in some cases, but I'm not willing to carry three times the weight, year after year, to get this edge. I personally know someone who killed a bear with .22 pistol (the bear was repeatedly tearing up his camp). I believe it was a one-shot kill. I wouldn't want to try it, but lets not say that nothing short of a heavy magnum can work. So, if FORCED to choose between 9mm, .40S&W, 357Sig, or .45ACP for bear defense, which cartridge/load would likely give the best penetration and be most effective? By the way, I agree that the 10mm would be better, and I am still considering the Glock 29, but I'm not sure that there are really many instances where the same shot made with the other cartridges would fail, but the 10mm would work. I'm basically looking for "the .32ACP of bear guns" if you know what I mean - I'll be carrying for the same reason people carry little .32s for self defense - not because they are the "ideal" cartridge or gun, but because they are far better than nothing (which is the likely alternative). It has got to be lightweight (16 oz or so) and corrosion resistant. Thanks. Doug

May 4, 2000, 02:16 PM	#9
Jay Baker Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2000 Location: S.W. Idaho Posts: 1,294	Any of those calibers about which you asked, would be sufficient for mountain lion. I have a friend who was a professional lion/bear guide, now retired, who used to kill mountain lions with his Ruger Single Six .22LR. But, if a black bear charges you, you would be better off with what the above posters suggested, .45LC, .44 Mag. .41 Mag., or .454 Casull. I killed a 400 pound black bear in the central Sierra of Kalif., several years ago, with my .41 Mag., Mdl. 57 S&W, using my handload of 210 gr. Sierra JHP. But the bear was treed, and I was with two, armed (also .41 mag) professional guides, with dogs. I carry it today, or my Ruger B.H. in .45 Long Colt (heavy handloads)in the Idaho boonies. There are lots of bears here in Idaho, including grizzlies. Odds are, however, you won't have any trouble with either bears or mountain lions, but in my opinion, it never hurts to have "an insurance policy." Better than becoming a statistic, of which "odds" are determined. Sometimes, in many parts of the country, you will be more in danger from feral dogs, than the true "wild" critters. I've had a set-to with feral dogs and believe me, that can get very, very exciting. EDIT: Given your situation and hiking (Kalif.) I think I'd go with a Glock .40 and conceal it in a good holster. (My carry pistol when not carrying the above I mentioned, is my Colt L.W. Commander in .45ACP. It'll handle about anything I'd run up against in the two legged, or feral category.) FWIW. J.B. [This message has been edited by Jay Baker (edited May 04, 2000).]

May 4, 2000, 02:43 PM	#10
FUD Junior member Join Date: January 28, 2000 Posts: 1,727	Out of the ones you offered, I would recommed the .45ACP -- when it comes to bears, the bigger/heavier the bullet, the better! Share what you know, learn what you don't -- FUD

May 4, 2000, 02:51 PM	#11
Jack 99 Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 1999 Posts: 1,082	OF THE CARTRIDGES MENTIONED (geez, does anyone follow directions anymore?) my vote is for the .45 ACP with 230 gr FMJ. Should have the most penetration.

May 4, 2000, 04:03 PM	#12
355sigfan Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2000 Posts: 1,388	Black bear and Brown bear are different critters. For black bear I would feel ok with my 357 sig or 10mm. But for Brown bear only my lever action 45-70 backed up by a 5 shot 45 colt Hamilton BOwen conversion on a redhawk would do firing a 400 grain bullet in the rifle at 1800 and a 350 grain bullet in the pistol at 1350. PAT ------------------ I intend to go into harms way.

May 4, 2000, 04:50 PM	#13
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	A "Tracker" .41 isn't THAT big- 24 oz. That's what I'd go for. Aside from that, shoulder-stabilized .45 ACP hardball.

May 4, 2000, 05:11 PM	#14
Bullwinkle Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2000 Posts: 283	Given 9, 357, 40, 45,.... I'd think a choose a 45, hanloaded hot with a 200gr. semiwadcutter. The 45 cause it has the highest un expanded diameter and the SWC over the FMJ cause it tends to do a little more cutting and less pushing aside.

May 4, 2000, 05:40 PM	#15
BigMike Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 1999 Location: North Central/Panhandle Florid Posts: 569	Get the .45, possibly the Glock. Your parameter for carrying it is somewhat tight. I live here in Washington, and backpack/camp/hike quite a bit. In all my years of enjoying the great outdoors, most of my problems have come from other "humans" not the black/brown bears I may run across. If you could expand your req's I'd look into a Ruger/Taurus revolver in .41 cal or higher. Mike

May 4, 2000, 05:48 PM	#16
JimFox Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 1999 Location: Zavalla, Texas USA Posts: 430	Quote: I think a head or spine shot (or three) with any of these calibers with a FMJ bullet at close range would probably work most of the time. And a poorly placed shot probably won't work, no matter what handgun I'm shooting. IMHO you're exactly correct. Actually a bear's skull is fairly thin and from an upward angle his spine is not all that well protected. If his blood isn't up and you can place your shot with precision (for example if you wake up and he has ahold of your foot and is trying to drag you out of the tent) any of them will do. And the heavier the slug the better in all calibers. If all hell is breaking loose and the bear's blood (and your's) is up - then the standard I'd suggest is whatever handgun you have that you can bring - from the leather - in less than a second and a half from first notice and hit a playing card sized target at 15 feet. The trick is that the playing card is apt to be moving in a somewhat random pattern at upwards of 20 - 30 miles and hour. 10 mm would be a good round in an auto - I'd also suggest - if you handload - playing around with some of the 250 or 260 grain jacketed softpoints in the .45 ACP. Another thing to consider in the old Auto/Revolver debate - if you and the bear are both wrestling around on the ground, then you may well only have one shot with the auto because some part of the bear's anatomy or yours hinders the slide cycle. And some autos are sensitive to muzzle contact, i.e., when pressed against the target pressure can move the slide slightly out of battery. If I were buying, I'd look long and strong at one of the lightweight .41s, .44s or .45 Colt in a double action revolver. Since I don't own any of them, if I were to carry something that I already have, it'd be a full size 1911 style with handloads using the 260 grain hornaday or a S&W Model 19 snubbie with 180 to 200 grain handloads. My real preference would be a 12 gage and/or one of Marlin's fine little 45/70 lever rifles. But they aren't discret to carry. I'd also say that your risk of lethal bear encounters is probably less that the 3% you estimated - unless you just flat live in the woods for the rest of your days. But, I understand they do get pushy when conditioned to well lardered camp sites in a lot of the national forests in your area. ------------------ Jim Fox

May 4, 2000, 06:04 PM	#17
Gipperdog Member Join Date: May 2, 2000 Location: Tempe, Az,, United States Posts: 34	If I were absolutely forced to defend myself with any of the cartridges you mentioned, I'd go with the 45 ACP using the heaviest loads I could find. If I had a choice in the matter to pick one for myself for a "Selfdefense" scenario, I'd go with the .500 Linebaugh pushing a 440 gr. bullet at 1300 fps out of a 5 1/12 Bisley style revolver. ------------------ Guard Freedom from those that "want to do it for the Children."

May 4, 2000, 07:05 PM	#18
Sgt.K Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: Kentucky, USA Posts: 198	And now for something completely different: Bear Pepper Spray and whichever caliber handgun you feel most comfortable with. Just my 2cts. Stay safe. Sgt.K

May 4, 2000, 07:06 PM	#19
Ron Ankeny Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2000 Posts: 316	I choose to carry a .45 auto loaded with hard cast 230 grainers. I shoot with the firearms trainer for the G&F Grizzly bear management team and he is really interesting to talk to. His recommendation (and the same is true of all members of the team) is good old pepper spray. BTW, the bear team has a moving target and man is it cool. Comes right at you at 15-20 miles per hour. None of the guys can hit it anyway so what's the difference? Seriously, to stop a balck bear in his tracks you need to hit him in the brain or central nervous system and the .45 auto will accomplish that if you do your part.

May 4, 2000, 10:38 PM	#20
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	The 9mm will be fine for a bullet to your brain. With choices like the ones you have, that's the only caliber you need, and you'll only need one round. Yes, choosing one of those calibers for bear defense IS that serious. On the other hand, if you'd like to see your grandchildren grow up, do as others have said, and carry a hot .41 Mag at the minimum.

May 5, 2000, 09:06 AM	#21
whiskey Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2000 Location: Clarksville, TN Posts: 431	Listen to SGT K. Pepper spray will work better on a bear in an attack situation than almost any gun. period. According to Alaska Fish and Game State Troopers. Small black bears shot with very large rifles often travel up to 100 yards. Get a gun for people and pepper spray for bears.

May 5, 2000, 09:29 AM	#22
Fred J. Drumheller Retired Screen Name Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 90	If you've got to carry a semi-auto, I'd go with the 10mm, or a .45 Super. Personally, I carry a S&W (SORRY!) .41 Mountain Gun loaded with H&G Keith Type 225gr (Hardcast in pure Lin-o-Type) over 21gr of WW296 for circa 1,300fps. The National Park Service has put out a bear Alert for the Parks. They recommend that you carry pepper spray and wear small bells to alert the bears to your presence and give them time to vacate the area. If the bear persists in its agressive behavior, then resort to the pepper spray. They also recommend that you familiarize yourself with the differences in the scats between black & grizzly bears. Black bear scat is smaller, and contains berry seeds and small animal bones & fur. Grizzly bear scat is bigger, contains small bells & smells like pepper spray. Yr. Obt. Svnt. ------------------ Fred J. Drumheller NRA Life NRA Golden Eagle

May 5, 2000, 01:39 PM	#23
Ron Ankeny Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2000 Posts: 316	Whiskey: Yup, that's what I do. Pepper spray where it can be rapidly deployed and a pistol (the one I like) in case I want to make some noise.

May 5, 2000, 03:05 PM	#24
tackdriver Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2000 Location: Bedford County, Virginia Posts: 505	Just keep in mind that brown bears attack because of territory. Black bears attack because they're hungry. I still don't understand these threads: "Uh, I might get eaten by a bear and I'm going to buy a gun to protect myself" which is always followed by some unreasonable limitation on the caliber or size as if these things were more important than their life. Even if the chances of getting attacked are only 3%, what's the point of buying a gun that might work instead of one that WILL? -for the "my grandpa once killed a grizzly with a BB gun," right and JFK was killed by one bullet. [This message has been edited by tackdriver (edited May 05, 2000).]

May 5, 2000, 04:46 PM	#25
Erik Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: America Posts: 3,479	(frown on face) If I must limit myself to you choices than I'd pick the .45acp. Don't worry about it too much, though. Under gunned is under gunned. But you are kidding yourself if you believe it is adequate for bear defense. I have yet to read about the "calmly executed, well placed shot delivered at twenty paces" which ended an attack by a bear. I have read numerous accounts on how lighting fast the attack will come and how the odds of getting more than two very fast shots off are slim. If you are serious, start at the .41 magnum and look upward in power from there. Someone will state that Alaskan law enforcement has done studies on what can kill their brown bears. Under situations similar to those encountered while hunting, a perfectly placed .38 will do the job. So the bear experts in Alaska all carry .38s, right? No. The Alaskan Fish and Wildlife employees are issued .44 magnums and .45-70 lever actions with powerful cartridges.