Advice on grizzly bear gun?

[Red Label]

Hello everyone. I am new to this forum, so please forgive me if I am asking a question that has already been beat to death here. Also, I realize that my question may be hard to answer subjectively, but I suspect there are some very knowledgeable people on this board that can help me.

I live in Billings, Montana and have decided that I will be spending a lot of time in the Beartooth Mountains this summer. I am into backpacking and mountain climbing. So I wanted a pistol that would be small and light, yet offer me some possibility of stopping a grizzly bear should one decide to attack. I bought a Llama Minimax .45 ACP the other day because it was cheap and available. I know, I know... a .45 ACP is probably more likely to make the bear mad than kill it. I much prefer the size and style of a semi-auto to a revolver. But the Desert Eagle 44 is way too big for me to pack along and get ready quickly. Plus, I have always loved .45 ACP's. And I am not looking to spend over $700 or $800. (I really want a Kimber!)

So my questions are these:
1)Am I just fooling myself to even consider using a .45 against a grizzly bear?
2)If so, what else would you recommend that's small and reasonably lightweight?
3)What .45 ACP ammo (if any) would you recommend for bear stopping power? How about the +P loads?

Any advice would be appreciated and considered. Thank you.

-John Walker

[buzz_knox]

Helpful answer: run a search because this really has been beaten more than the proverbial horse. The short version is most people don't trust a handgun for such purposes and if they do, nothing less than a full bore magnum or a hot 10mm or .45 Super. .45 ain't going to cut it.

Smart alec answer: best gun for a grizzly? A grizzly don't need no gun.

[Red Label]

Thanks buzz. I suspected that it had been beat pretty good already. Didn't know about the search feature. Will do that. Sorry to tie up board space with this. Thanks again.

[CoyDog]

Hi Red Label: We are going to be neighbors soon, as I am moving to Cody, Wyoming in March.

As for the grizzly question, get ready for an avalance of strong opinion. Many will tell you that grizzlies are ten feet tall and bulletproof, and that using a handgun is folly. I don't agree. They are tough customers, but they are still flesh and bone.

Obviously bigger is better, but I think that handguns could have saved people who were mauled in the past. I know someone in Cody who killed a charging grizzly with a 12 gauge and OO buckshot, and that is not exactly a great penetrating round. Another guide I know shot a bear on top of his client and killed it with one shot to the spine from a 30/06. Two years ago, a hunting party in the Thoroughfare was attacked by a sow and two yearlings, and they killed all three bears with .44 Magnum revolvers. I relate these because they constitute real experiences and not just keyboard opinion.

That being said, I plan to have my 375 H&H along in the backcountry. Second choice is a Benelli M1 with slugs. Third choice is a .44 Magnum Colt Anaconda. Last but not least, in my sleeping bag at night will be an H&K USP 45 with Tactical light attached, on a wrist lanyard. For the .45 I use 230 grain FMJ for maximum penetration. I consider this rig for emergency use only.

Some will tell you that a bear attack is unlikely, but many people don't realize how prolific grizzlies have become in the Greater Yellowstone area. Many outfitters now report that they encounter bears daily while elk hunting. What is really needed is a grizzly hunting season to put a little fear of humans back into the equation.

Good Shooting,
CoyDog

[HankB]

Red Label wrote:

...what else would you recommend that's small and reasonably lightweight?

Well, if you want somthing small and lightweight, some sort of snubnose .38 comes to mind. File the front sight off so it won't hurt so much when the bear shoves it up your . . .

Sorry, couldn't resist. Seriously, IMHO, no pistol round is GOOD for defense against a big bear who's intent on chewing you. I've spoken to a WWII vet who was stationed in Alaska and was less than thrilled with a .45 Thompson's performance on a big bear, and that's more firepower than most pistols.

It's not just a matter of killing the bear - it's STOPPING the bear. Personally, a .44 mag with heavy hardcast 300 grain bullets would be my choice, but only as a "last ditch" weapon. Of course, any centerfire would be better than nothing at all, provided you can, during a bear attack, remember to shoot him in the head.

[Mal H]

First off, welcome to TFL, Red Label.

We have a member, Keith Rogan, who has "been there done that" and has the scars to prove it. He has some very good information and advice on this topic at The Bears and Bear Maulings Page. Check it out.

[added]
The link doesn't seem to want to work. Keith?

[MountainGun44]

Pepper Spray and a S&W Mountain Gun in .44 Magnum with Federal 300 grain castcores.

If you are REALLY concerned about bears, get a Guide Gun in 45-70 with some hot loads.

[drothen]

I ask almost the exact same question a couple of months ago. People here gave some really excellent responses (also some smarta$$ ones, too, as you can see). You can probably search on my user name to find the thread. I concluded that for backpacking, the best thing on the market that was light enough to pack around and that was significantly better than my belt knife was a Taurus titanium Tracker in .41 magnum.

Good luck.

[BB]

I second the Guide Gun in 45-70. Pretty packable and packs a punch.

[new guy]

Red Label: welcome to the forum. As other posters have suggested, try the search function first. This topic comes up often.

Here are my suggestions, though. First, learn all you can about bear behavior. Keith Rogan, who posts here, has an excellent website on the matter. Second, invest in and believe in pepper spray.

There are many reasons why handguns are deficient in this regard and they have all come up in previous threads. Basically, it is terribly hard to package the power you need to stop a griz in a handgun. And you will not find that power in any off-the-shelf auto except for some of the exotics (eg: Desert Eagle). Never mind the incredibly small, swiftly moving target you will need to hit under great duress to flip the bear's 'off' switch. And this assumes you are not simply ambushed or blindsided as are many grizzly victims.

I am a neighbor of yours (sort of) as I live in Great Falls. I hunt, hike and fish in the Bob Marshall where, as you know, there are just a few grizzlies. I face these questions myself and still do not have the ideal set-up. Currently I carry a huge can of UDAP spray backed up with a Smith .357 loaded with hot 180 cast LBT-type bullets. Mine is a terribly deficient handgun choice as well. But until I can afford the .44 Mountain Gun I want, it is what I have and I shoot it well.

Just remember, bear encounters seldom turn ugly. I've had several and like most backcountry travelers, I have emerged unscathed. In the months of winter remaining, do your homework. Learn how to avoid the attacks in the first place. And if you do place your faith in a handgun, you will need to do better than .45 ACP. Best of luck to you.

[jnewkirk]

One aspect of this subject that I haven't seen beat to death is how do you carry your .44 Mag/.454/Death Ray when backpacking. I started backpacking last summer and have not yet devised a carry method that protects the firearm, keeps it accessible and is somewhat discrete. In other situations, my preference is a quality leather belt holster. However, the big weight-bearing hip straps on a backpack make that impractical. Anybody have a great solution?

[WalterGAII]

Probably the most underrated gun for Grizzes is the Ruger Single Six, loaed with .22 shorts, for DemocRATs, that is.

[CoyDog]

JNewKirk: A cross draw holster from Desantis or Bianchi will work with a back pack, if attached just left of the belt buckle. It is not discrete at all, but the people you meet on the trail tend to be real polite.
Good Shooting, CoyDog

[ajacobs]

I am not in grizzly country but due carry handguns while backpacking. THe best carry metod I have found is a bianchi full flap holster with the drop down attachment, the problem is that I dought many firearms semi-sutable for bear will fit in one. The benifits are it is attached to your belt, not your backpack so it is always with you. The full flap provides great protection from the elements. but most important to me is it is the only thigh holster were the drop down is stiff, this insures the weight is on your belt not on your leg like most thigh holster (sure they look cool but get unconfortable fast). What do I carry in mine? Ruger Mk2, np3ed with a four inch bull barrell, certainly not suited for bear, but certainly suited for the more likely problem in my area (rabid animals). And it makes a great companion to my wild west guns lever action .357

[Jamie Young]

Forget about guns Just Get a Hand Grenade

[shiroikuma]

I'd go with a glock 10mm. Light and it's your preferance of an automatic. I feel it's better to have some gun than no gun and if you leave that heavy rifle in your trunk it doesn't do you any good at all. It' easy to carry a pistol so it will be with you.

I can't think of a discrete way to carry one with a full backback either. Unless you get a belt pouch big enough to carry it in and sew or velcro it to the pack belt. I think the best holster is the on the thigh one but I've never used one and I suspect they are less comfortable.

shiro

[dairycreek]

Welcome to TFL "Red". You have already received a lot of very good advice here. I hunt black bear with my Ruger Super Redhawk in .44 magum and, believe me, they are tough. I have never hunted a grizzly but if they are tougher than a black bear I would not use a hand gun as my "stopper". I second those who recommend the Marlin Guide gun in 45.70 and suggest that you check out garrettcartridges.com for some really good ammo for stopping a grizzly. Good luck!

[DAKODAKID]

I would take the BIG can of pepper spray with
me along my kind and gentle hikes in Grizzly
Land.
I was lambasted for asking if the .45 would
take a deer, I am not even going there when
it comes to a BEAR...
If you only have a .45 load it up the with the
hottest stuff your pistol can handle...
For what it is worth when I used to work in
a slaughter house I have seen 800#-1200+#
cows/bulls drop in 1/2 a second with a .22lr
Yeah I know shot placement and all that but
I think you would have to get REALLY close
to a grizzly to get a good shot-placement
with a .45
Good luck and God bless....

[JerryM]

It doesn't do much good to tell you to use a .375. You are obviously planning to carry a handgun for use in an emergency while climbing or backpacking. That being the case, and since you have the .45, go ahead and carry it. I would use hardball to get penetration. No handgun is really enough, but it beats a fist or a knife, and there is the hope that the noise would scare the bear off before it charged. I would carry it. I'm not all that sure a bear would know the difference between a .45 and a .44 Mag. Jerry

[2kiddad]

The current issue of American Rifleman has an article about the .480 Ruger.

Some pretty serious numbers for this round. 325gr. round. 1330fps velocity, 1275lb/ft. energy. Ruger has come out with a new Super Redhawk chambered for this round, also. MSPR is $745.00.

Of course, there's always the .454 Casull. 300gr. round. 1625fps muzzle velocity, 1755lb/ft. energy. Taurus' Raging Bull is about the same price as the new Ruger.

I'm no expert about such things, but I'll betcha you could bank your life against a grizzly with either of these pistols.

[colorado]

Summer of 1979 I hiked the length of the Bob Marshall Wilderness alone. I didn't own a pistol, so I carried my .270 loaded with 150 g. Noslers. I had lived just North of West Yellowstone and then near Glacier Park for years and was very familiar with bears. I don't carry a rifle any more for bears unless I'm hunting elk or deer, because when you need it you've likely put it down. I was flyfishing in the Flathead River, hadn't seen another human being for three days when I heard a loud sniffing noise. A Grizzly 30 feet from me standing upright. My rifle (not wanting to get it wet since I was wading thigh deep) was about 30 feet away. I might as well of left it home. I slowly put my rod down and reached in my creel for the one trout that was in there fully prepared to throw it at the bear and swim the rapids below me, but first I started talking to the bear. Luckily it must have been shot at, it turned and ran once it realized I wasn't a black bear in its territory. If you carry a rifle, carry a pistol too and wear it all of the time. But don't shoot unless there's no choice, cause odds are the bear isn't going to lie down right away ....

[DougB]

This is a subject I've thought about quite a bit. I think I started one or two of the previous threads on the subject. The big difference is that I hike and fish in black bear and mountain lion country - no grizzlies. That means I'm willing to settle for a little less power in order to save weight. My current choice is a Kel-Tec P40 with FMJ bullets. I'm also considering getting a .357 Sig barrel for it - which might increase penetration. This is very compact, rust-resistant (with hard chrome finish), holds 11 rounds with finger extension, and weighs only about 16 oz empty. I wish it were a 10mm, but I think its what I'll carry this summer.

Other guns I've seriously considered and think would be good choices are:

(1) Taurus Titanium Tracker in .41 or .357 (I'd pick the .41, especially in grizzly country, but the .357 holds two more rounds, kicks less, and is much cheaper to practice with - so some might think it a better pick).

(2) Glock 29 compact 10mm. This gun looks very good on paper (about 25 oz, 11 shots, compact, rust-resistant, etc.). And it has a good reputation and many like it. But (to me at least) its is very thick and blocky and doesn't feel comfortable in my hand. I also don't care for the Glock trigger system (especially since I might sometimes drop it in a fanny pack, pocket, etc. where the trigger could catch on something or be pulled by accident).

I wish someone made a traditional double-action, 11-shot, 10mm with polymer frame, titanium slide, in 10mm that weighs around 18 oz. In Grizzly country, I'd probably pick the .41 mag or something bigger and just live with more weight.

Doug

[Politically Incorrect]

from http://www.handguncontrolinc.com/national_parks.htm

National Park Service Warning - Bear Confrontations

Fall 2000

In light of the increasing number of bear confrontations with outdoors persons, the National Park Service advises all outdoor persons (hunters,fishermen, hikers, campers, etc...) to sew small silver bells to their clothing to prevent them from startling any bears. It is further recommended that all outdoors persons carry pepper spray for their protection.

These persons should also familiarize themselves with the sign of these animals and should for example know the difference between black bear feces and grizzly bear feces. Black bear feces are small and contain berries and
squirrel fur. Grizzly bear feces are much larger and contain small silver bells and smell like pepper spray.

[J. Parker]

Welcome, my friend, to TFL. As a backpacker/mountain climber anything you chose will be a compromise of sorts. How far do you backpack? Do you want to carry a seven pound long gun for extended periods? If the answer is yes then the above mentioned are good choices. The least expensive but yet very powerful is the 12 guage shotgun. With Brenneke slugs you'd be well armed. Was your answer no to a long gun? IMHO, The best POWER to WEIGHT ratio available is the S&W Mountain Gun in 44 mag or 45LC. One more thing, chances are that long gun won't be there when you need it most. I'm a campaholic and I don't recall ever seeing a backpacker/hiker with a long gun. Calibre advise; You're in SERIOUS bear country. Get a SERIOUS calibre. Forget urban semi-auto calibre's. IMO, a powerful 4" revolver is the best "compromise". Good Luck and welcome once again. J. Parker

[David Scott]

The Ruger Super Redhawk is now available in .454 Casull:



If that don't handle the grizzly, you need a long gun.