Reduced loads/cast bullets

[Nuts and Bolts]

I am getting supplies together to start loading some lead bullets at reduced velocities in my 30-06 and 303 british. I'm planning on loads from "cat sneeze" to subsonic and some + or - 1500 fps loads. Any ideas about powders, moulds, loading proceedures, as well as some basic casting ideas? As far as powders go, I've got 800x, red dot, Imr 4064,4895,4350. I also picked up some buckshot to try. Might be lots of fun(when the weather starts getting warmer in alberta )

[bedlamite]

In 30-30 win, I've used 10.5gr of Blue Dot under a 170gr hard cast for about 1350fps from my Winchester 94. On a good day I can get 3" groups at 100yds using the peep sight.

[Big Bunny]

Lyman do a good 185gn cast for linotype, but a gas check is recommended over 1,500 FPS and it is expensive. It is very accurate at 100m - but the ".303" barrel should be slugged to find the true diameter as aything betweer .310 and 315 is "normal". A soft 00 buck [and lubed] is ideal for this purpose as you suggest !
N&B- is your Brit.303 a No1 SMLE or a No4/5 or even a Martini-Enfield conversion?

[Wish I was 'Alberta Cold' here- it is 40 degrees Centigrade or over 100F here!]

BB

[labgrade]

Take a look here for some more info.

[MADISON]

I have been loading SQUIB loads in 22 Hornet and .223 for 10 years. My advice is to get hold of a Lee Loading Manual and read pages 90 through 93. I have the program for taking the powder and bullet you are now using and DOWN SIZING it to the velocity you need.
MADISON

[ernest2]

When working down to squib loads, especially for rifles, be
carefull to check you bore after every shoot to insure that the
bullet did indeed exit the barrell and is not obsturcting the barrell
instead.

You mentioned "Cat Sneeze" and that reminded me of the time
I put 12 grains of unique in a 8 mm case behind a 150 grain bullet head which got stuck in the barrell about 10 inchs in from the firing chamber.

I had the sense to inspect the bore before taking a second shot
and then to take a wooden dowl and drive the bullet head out of the barrell and back into the chamber and out the reciever.

Be prepaired for this to happen until you are assured that your cat sneeze loads are indeed comming out the muzzle.

Bring the proper size wood dowl or steel rod along with a hammer to the range with you when you first test out these
squib loads cat sneeze rounds. I always do this when I make
extra - extra- lite target loads.

It is fun to watch the bullet come out the barrell and fall on the ground 10 feet in front of the gun, especially when your friend is not expecting this to happen.
It is amusing & interesting to note his supprised comments.


But sometimes the bullet don't even come out of the barrell.

Like the "roach motel",
bullets go in but they don't come out.

This can fast become a serious, costly & dangerous problem if you do not inspect the bore to be sure it is clear before firing the next shot.

A bore inspection flashlight is helpfull.

This is a 2 cell aa penlight
with a sparkplug wire distributor cap nipple fitted to the light bulb end into which
has been fitted a 1/4 in diameter fiber optic rod which has either a 90 degree or a 45 degree bend in it in order to shine light into the firing chamber and through the bore.

Beware barrell obstructions.

[Jim Watson]

My interest in cast bullets is for .30-30 and .30-06 loads in the 1200-1400 fps range. I figure the .32-40 was the most successful cast bullet round and want to get as close as I can to it. I don't use squib or cat's sneeze loads, I have .22s and a pellet gun for indoors.

The Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets is a good starting reference, Lyman No 47 has some data and guidelines. Linotype is a good material for gas check bullets. Lyman and RCBS molds are good. SPG lubricant as advertised for black powder calibers works well with low to medium velocity smokeless loads. The NRA Alox-beeswax formula works, too, but is a bit gooey. I have shot some commercial cast bullets with the hard lubes they use on pistol bullets and did not get as accurate or as clean shooting. Of course that could have been due to their alloy or quality control. A lubrisizer is convenient, but don't size the bullets down too much. They should be a thou or two over groove diameter anyway. There are other molds, metals, lubes and data, but those are a place to start.

Specifically, in a Winchester M70 Target .30-06, I have shot 150 to 180 grain gas check Lyman and RCBS bullets into 100 yard groups of 1-2 inches with several powders. I will frequently see four close shots and a flyer, probably because I am not a very skilled bullet caster.
Loads include 27 gr H322, 18 gr IMR 4227, 24 gr IMR 4198, 16 and 19 grains of 2400, 14 and 20 gr SR 4759, and 12.5 gr 700X.

I loaded the 12.5 gr of 700X because that was as close as I could get to C.E. Harris' load of 13 grains of Red Dot. He also recommended 16 grains of 2400, which was more accurate for me than 19, even though the guy I borrowed that mold from was pleased with 20.

Great fun and soft shooting.

[Fatelvis]

Lymans .314" bullet, over 16.0 gr of 2400, and any standard primer gives EXCELLENT groups in my rifle. It is a safe, mid/light load, and was in a shotgun news article, I believe called "shooting military rifles with cast bullets" about a year ago.

[Nuts and Bolts]

Thanks for the info guys! It will be very useful. I think I'll be starting load development with the 30/06 this weekend. Bought the lee reloading manual today, and ordered a lee bullet sizing die (.309), a lee 200gr RN mould(.309) and a box of gas checks. I'll also be sure to get a good dowel! When i get good results with these, than I will start on the 303 loads.
Big bunny, my 303's are both number 4 mk1, one of undetermined origin(1942), and a Long Branch #4mk1* "project rifle" that I got for basically nothing because:
-Someone chopped the barrel to 22"
-It had a poor sporterized butt stock
-No front sight
-4 holes drilled in the side of the action and tapped
I figure that I could make it into a wannabe scout rifle, although I don't know if I'll get the Scout scope setup or not. Might be nice with just a good set of iron sights

[Art Eatman]

For the '06: A 169-grain gas check ahead of 20 grains of 2400 is a nearly-no recoil load, and I've found it quite accurate. MV is around 1,900, maybe 2,000, disremember. Not real loud, either.

Five grains weight of most any faster-burning pistol powder, behind a round lead ball of about .32" will make a nice squirrel load. Doesn't even expand the case-neck.

Art

[labgrade]

I "played around" with Unique merely because that was the powder that I had that fit the range of "playing" with reduced .308/.30-06 (& a couple other) loads.

I cast a Lyman 173 (or so) .308 cal gas-checked #2 alloy from straight, or mod'd to the #2 alloy - makes no difference at this velocity, or alloy, - for playing around at about 1200-1500 fps in the .308/.30-06-class firings.

10-15 grains Unique, depending upon caliber, makes no real difference, seat to hard-engrave your bullets & work up from about 9 grains to what works.

Same-same for any pistol powder, starting at min & work up to what works.

Very ecconomical & can be very accurate to 100 yards, & most probably + .... there is nothing at all the matter with a .30 al 170 gr +/- bullet at 1500 fps - you do the math.

I would say that do be careful using IMR-type (etc.) powders, or anything reduced due to the possibility of "detonation." Do stay with published loading data.

A ton of experimentation to be done at the .30-.310 cal range with off the shelf bullets ...

[Freedom in theSkies]

I checked in one of my reference books and found a load for a 200 gr jacketed bullet.
27-31 gr. of IMR4198 and a regular lg. rifle primer.
Velocities should be around 1800fps.
I wonder if you could drop to 18 or so grains of 4198 to get into the 1400 fps range....

If you use a fast pistol powder in these reduced loads, does the pressure curve stay within safe limits?

Are you going to use a different mould for the .303 (.311) loads or is that what the shot is for?

[Nuts and Bolts]

I am going to try the buckshot in both calibers, and i will get another mould for the 303, as well as a sizer. Does a person have to worry about slugging the bore of the 303's? Or should a person just size to .311 or .314? Also, would it be a good idea to run the #0 buckshot through a sizing die for the approriate caliber?

[Art Eatman]

Freedom: You asked, "If you use a fast pistol powder in these reduced loads, does the pressure curve stay within safe limits?"

In the '06 only: You'd find an upper limit of pressure, but it would happen beyond the point that severe leading of a barrel would occur. (With an un-jacketed bullet)

Ya gotta keep in mind the difference in pressures between most handguns, and bolt-action rifles. And, of course, why you're playing around with any pistol powder in the first place: "Reduced" loads.

If you don't have a chronograph, you can go by the noise, and the trajectory.

If you're sighted in for the usual 2" high at 100 yards, and your bullet hits a foot low, you then KNOW your pressures are okay.

But I wouldn't go tryin' some 30 grains of Bullseye. Uh-uh.

Art

[Nuts and Bolts]

Freedom, I found an artical in shooting times(may 1996) by Mike Venturino today on reduced loads. As far as powders go he recomends the faster burning rifle powders including:
-Imr's sr4759 and 4198
-xmp 5744
-accurate's reloader7, 2400 and h4198
-with rl-7 and h4198 he recomends 17 to 18 grains with 6mm remington to 308, 21 grains in 3006 sized cases, and 22 grains in magnums.
-with the faster ones on his list (sr 4759,xmp-5744,2400 etc.) he likes 12 to 14 grains with the 6mm to 308, add a grain for 3006 sized, and another for magnums
In a 7mm-08 he used 18 grains of h4198 with a 137gr rn cast bullet for 1239 fps. Since imr4198 and h4198 are number 60 and 59 on lee's burning rate chart you are probably right on the money

[Khornet]

NRA has an excellent and thorough publication called, I beleive, 'Cast Bullet handbook' or some such. Lots of info on sizing, alloys shapes, casting, molds, etc. Even some cool basic metallurgy.

[Edward429451]

I've been using the 110 gr LRN (intended for M1 carbine), over 15.0 gr of Unique for small game loads for our 308's...