Informal Media Penetration Test .223 vs. .308

[SHIVAN]

From "The Ultimate Sniper" by Maj. John Plaster USAR (Ret.)

Informal Media Penetration Test pg. 129

1st line will represent 5.56 m193 ammo, 2nd line will represent 7.62 m80 ammo.......

Military Sandbags 100yds -- fail
Military Sandbags 100yds -- fail

Helmet w/ liner 200yds MAX
Helmet w/ liner 400yds easy

Concrete H-Block 200yds MAX
Concrete H-Block 300yds MAX

4" Layer of Pine 400yds barely
4" Layer of Pine 400yds easy

1/8" Sheet Steel 100yds MAX
1/8" Sheet Steel 300yds easy

1/4" Boiler Plate 100yds MAX
1/4" Boiler Plate 200yds MAX

Car Door '68 Dodge 300yds barely
Car Door '68 Dodge 400yds easy.

From the above, you can reason that the .308 penetrates better and easier. From likely engagement scenarios the only cover you can assume that will likely save your ass from either round would be a properly constructed sandbag bunker. As enemy engagement from a single person at greater than 100yds will likely get you dead in a hurry.

Thanks,

Ed

[Steve Smith]

Seems to me that tests like this are pretty useless. I think I already knew the differences between these two rounds before I read the test results, or the other threads and conversations on this subject that have been hashed and rehashed for the last 30 years. Common sense that a .223 would not perform at the same level as a .308. Duh. I wonder if a .22LR would perform as well as a .44 Mag on an elk? I don't think I need a test for that one either.

When will it end?


Performance of the round is almost obvious, even to the layman. The shooter should decide how much he needs and how much he can handle. The shooter's abilities, not the tools, are the variables. The result on target is the quotient.

[swatman]

No need to be sarcastic ;)

[hksigwalther]

Certainly for seasoned collectors and shooters this is old news. However, not everybody is a seasoned shooter with rifles and not everybody can visualize the impact to targets down range between the two cartridges.

[SHIVAN]

the sarcasm with which I placed this thread on the board.

Timeliness, execution and backed by the facts.

Sorry you missed the point. I'm sure the idiot for which it was intended is soaking it in, but still not getting IT!!!

Thanks,

Ed

[SHIVAN]

I re-read your response, you REALLY missed my point by a long shot.

I'll spell it out for you:

It's not that the .308 performs so much better, it's that the .223 can do many of the same things the .308 can do, but just not to the "n"th degree the .308 can. There seems to be some failure to comprehend that most rifle caliber bullets will penetrate most things considered "cover". From the tiniest little mouse gun in .223 to the .50BMG.

This was not a .308 is better or a .223 is better thread.

Just because you and I may know that the .308 carries more energy out to 1000yds or that it is less likely to sway in a 10mph crosswind does not mean that Joe X knows it.

So get over yourself, and remember that there may be at least one person that the information was useful for.

Thanks,

Ed

[Gary H]

Should those of us living in the United States ever really need this information, we are way beyond sweating the small stuff. I'm running for the hills.

[Steve Smith]

Shivan, I understood what you were trying to say from the get go. Maybe all this SHTF silliness is getting to my head. It all just seems so....silly.

[Art Eatman]

Years back, I commented about the number of very elementary gunrag articles for beginning handloaders. A buddy offered, "Art, not everybody's been doing that as long as you have. There's a new crop, every year."

Same for SHTF or "what rifle (handgun, shotgun)?" or "A vs. B" and all that.

About all you can do at the 40th repetition is either ignore it or put on your school teacher hat. Sometimes, doing the latter is a bit wearying, but what the heck. :) Cultivating patience reduces one's scowling, and if your face freezes it's better if you're grinning.

Art

[Steve Smith]

I have had a permanent scowl since I was born. My mom musta farted when I came out. What of it???


;)


I'm trying to be good, really, I am!

[SHIVAN]

Get a rifle, use it..........shut the hell up.

[Foxy]

How can you tell if the bullet penetrated the target 'easily' or 'barely'?

Was the .223 bullet sitting there, panting, while the .308 bullet was hopping around, begging for another go?

I'd be interested in seeing the results of SS109 instead of M193 ball. In the military's test, the SS109 was outpenetrating helmets at 1100 yards compared to 7.62x51 ball.

[SHIVAN]

I don't know the author so I can read up on it......but in my estimation:

easily means; they probably toted it another 10 yds and it still punched it, but at 15yds more it might have been halted.

barely means the FMJ bullet was laying just on the other side of the "cover" or maybe was piercing the barrier but still imbeded in the material (i.e. the car door example).

I've never seen a test claiming penetration from ss109 on a GI Kevlar helmet at 1100 yards, but if the ss109 is doing it out that far then my bet is the m80 round would most likely do it too....


That said, it is NOT a .308 vs. .223 competition, my point is that they both penetrate most media rather simply at engagement distances. An 1100 yds shot is not your average infantry shot.

Ed

[Art Eatman]

Is the ss109 the 63-grain (or thereabouts) bullet that first followed the original ball load? If so, I read that the design idea was to penetrate the helmet at 600 yards or meters or whatever.

By and large, when I've occasionally compared "Oomph" of different cartridges and bullets, I've gone by the relative size of an exit hole.

In steel, "easily" is when the hole is notably larger than the bullet. A bullet-diameter hole might be "just". :) In wood, you can sorta get a handle on it by using plywood behind the primary impact material. "Easily" means a whole bunch of shredding; "barely" would, again, be a hole more in line with just the bullet's diameter. And it's all a "sorta" kind of thing, anyhow.

Art

[Badger Arms]

Everybody's missing the point. Looking purely at penetration, one gets the impression that the .223 is superior because the SS109 is a well-designed armor piercing bullet. This much attention lavished on the .308 would likely yield a superior round. See the attachment for Ed Ezell's data:

[SHIVAN]

My intentions were not to develop a superiority thread, only to show that the .223 could in fact penetrate what would/or might be considered cover.

[gryphon]

"I wish you'd all stop bickering and eat me!"

------ John Cleese, Monty Pythons Flying Circus

[scotjute]

Shivan,
Thanks for the info. Looks like we need to stock up on sandbags! :)

Speaking strictly from a non-military background, but as one raised on a farm and used to killing critters of various sorts, if deer could shoot back, I'd much rather have a .308 sized rifle than a .223 sized rifle to hunt them with.
However I've lugged rifles/shotguns around the woods enough to appreciate the weight difference between a .223 sized rifle and a .308 sized rifle. Not to mention the weight difference in a 200 round pack of ammo. Seems to me that our armed forces have chosen to go with the lighter-is-better-and-cheaper approach and that there is a lot of justification to that decision. One of the strong factors for it is that our army usually has all kinds of back-up weaponry for long distance firepower beyond the 300-400 yd fighting range of the .223.
When you look at a choice for an individual in the proverbial SHHTF situation, there will be no back-up weaponry, and hence the bigger calibers with extended ranges/better penetration would seem to be the better choice. Just finished reading article in NRA mag. on the M14 and one of the points a soldier brought out was that they could kill an enemy with it even when he hid behind a tree.

[SHIVAN]

Scotjute:

Thanks for the level headed response, FOR ONCE someone can be civil.

FWIW, I have several calibers and I'm accurate enough with all of them. (.308, .270, .223, 40 S&W, .357Mag, 12ga)

I have a .308 and a .223 and advocate neither as being better or worse. I, too, would not hunt a deer with a .223 even if they allowed it in Virginia. However, mankind responds very differently to a volume of fire being thrown at them, and RARELY will you see a gut shot, or bone involved shot human running 30 - 200 yds away after example shot impacts. But you will see a deer with 3 legs and heart shot running for quite some time before collapsing.............at least I have..........

Ed

[Jamie Young]

I'd be interested in seeing the results of SS109 instead of M193 ball.

I've seen it with My own eyes.:eek: I've seen SS109 bust threw 1/4 steel, while M193 literally bounced off, at 100yds. I saw a cratered hits from the SS109, but most of them went straight threw.

The SS109 probable penetrated better at 1100yds than the 7.62 because your comparing an object that has a "steel core" vs. and object that has a "lead core."


All of My M855 reloads are 62gr, but I see SS109 that are sometimes 63gr. Mine are all IMI M855 62gr SCBT.

I think if the Military dumped the 55gr M193 and just upped the bullet weight to 69gr HPBT (and ignored the Hague) you could get another 300yds out of the 5.56. But I'm dreaming.

[SHIVAN]

"steel core" vs. and object that has a "lead core."


Good point point I had forgotten that they were using the steel slag internal on the ss109.

Ed

[Hard_Case]

Um....I thought this was a media penetration test..........I'm still waiting for the '.308 vs. .223: Effective Penetration of Tom Brokaw at 500 yards' part......

[ballistic gelatin]

I have always been interested in the penetration of both calibers on my wallet.

.308 does in deed penetrate more.

[Jamie Young]

I have always been interested in the penetration of both calibers on my wallet.

.308 penetrates the dollar coins better than .223. I heard that it depends on what kind of currency you shoot. Usually the .223 penetrates the "Yen" but not the "US Dollar" since the "Yen" is a much weaker currency.:p

[brembo]

Um....I thought this was a media penetration test..........I'm still waiting for the '.308 vs. .223: Effective Penetration of Tom Brokaw at 500 yards' part......

:rotfl:

Oh thats rich....

[Art Eatman]

No, brembo, Rich would disapprove. That's not exactly a good example of responsibility vis-a-vis firearms. Just because I chuckled doesn't mean it ain't third-grade. :) Anyhow, no more of that.

This thread's about burnt out, anyway...

Art

[benewton]

Edited by Art on acount of.