The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post - Man Saved From Police Bullet By Steel Plate In Head

FrankDrebin · February 23, 2005, 03:24 AM

Cops: Ammo lacks punch

Detroit Police Department starts investigation after word spreads that special bullets fail in crucial situations
February 23, 2005

BY BEN SCHMITT
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

Detroit police officials are investigating the ammunition officers use after a bullet fired from a cop's gun bounced off a suspect's head and another bullet failed to penetrate the winter jacket of a suspected robber.

RELATED CONTENT
GRAPHIC: Expanding full metal jackets (Adobe PDF format, 574K)

These two recent incidents -- and rumors of others -- have touched off a fierce debate that's raging from patrol cars to the gun range to the chief's office. It's a sensitive topic in a department under federal supervision, partly because of complaints about excessive force.

Chief Ella Bully-Cummings ordered the investigation.

"Any time officers are concerned, in order to dispel those concerns, it's important that we look into the matter," said Bully-Cummings, adding that the type of ammunition the department is using "is one of the best."

The .40-caliber bullets are manufactured by Federal Cartridge Co. of Anoka, Minn. They are known as expanding full metal jackets.

The chief said they were first issued in January 2004, after years of urging by the police officers' union, which wants ammunition that will stop a threat but not so powerful that bullets plow through bodies and hurt other people.

The chief said another worry of the officers is that body-piercing bullets -- known as full metal jackets -- sometimes allow gunmen, even after being hit, to continue to advance on officers while firing. Expanding full metal jackets differ from standard full metal jackets in that their tips are filled with a silicone-like substance and are designed to stop inside the body rather than exit.

Rich Weaver, secretary-treasurer of the Detroit Police Officers Association, wants more answers. "We do know there were some recent incidents where some rounds did not take effect," he said Tuesday. "A bullet is supposed to go through winter clothes. We can't shut down for winter season."

Detroit Police Sgt. Lawrence Semczak, a supervisor at the department's gun range, insists there is nothing wrong with the current bullets.

"There's a major misperception out there right now," Semczak said. "It's all conjecture. The rounds do what they're intended to do, which is stop a threat."

Evan Marshall, a retired Detroit police sergeant who lives in Midland, has written three books on ballistics. He's a proponent of the current ammunition.

"It's certainly better than the standard full metal jacket, which will over-penetrate and endanger bystanders and other officers," Marshall said Tuesday. "A straight, full metal jacket will go through a target. It won't deform unless it hits a major bone."

Federal Cartridge Co. said in a statement Tuesday that it is "working directly with the Detroit Police Department to support all of their ammunition research needs regarding this matter. It is impossible for us to respond in detail to this specific situation without doing further examination."

Spokesman Jason Nash said in the statement: "We do have full confidence in our product based on extensive testing and previous live-fire field reports and will do all we can to support the Police Department's investigation."

Nash said Detroit's bullets are also used by numerous other departments, and he knows of no other complaints.

The first incident that sparked worry took place Feb. 1. A Detroit officer fired at a robbery suspect, who had fired a gun. The bullet hit the suspect's head but did not penetrate. He was hospitalized with a head wound, but an examination showed the bullet did not enter his skull -- perhaps because the man had a metal plate in his head from a previous injury.

"The incident raised our concern," Bully-Cummings said.

The second incident took place Feb. 12 when several officers from the 6th (Plymouth) Precinct shot and killed another robbery suspect, who was shooting at them. An officer was seriously wounded in the fusillade, and the suspect was struck 11 times. But when the officers and evidence technicians examined the man's body, they reported that at least one of the bullets had failed to penetrate his thick winter jacket.

Evans, the ballistics expert, said: "We need to provide officers with the best ammunition they can find. Whatever you get, there is no guarantee that you're not going to have problems."

The department was put under two federal consent decrees in 2003, one centering on use of force and witness detention procedures.

Ron Scott, spokesman for the Coalition Against Police Brutality, said he's more upset by the frequency of police shootings of people. According to department spokesman James Tate, Detroit police have shot and killed three people so far this year and wounded two others in five separate incidents. Tate said officers were shot at in each incident.

"I challenge them to prove that because people are wearing down coats, they need to pummel them with bullets," Scott said Tuesday. "When they keep doing it, people shoot back. They are starting a war."

Contact BEN SCHMITT at 313-223-4296 or [email protected].

February 23, 2005, 03:24 AM	#1
FrankDrebin Junior member Join Date: May 21, 2004 Posts: 1,101	Man Saved From Police Bullet By Steel Plate In Head Cops: Ammo lacks punch Detroit Police Department starts investigation after word spreads that special bullets fail in crucial situations February 23, 2005 BY BEN SCHMITT FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER Detroit police officials are investigating the ammunition officers use after a bullet fired from a cop's gun bounced off a suspect's head and another bullet failed to penetrate the winter jacket of a suspected robber. RELATED CONTENT GRAPHIC: Expanding full metal jackets (Adobe PDF format, 574K) These two recent incidents -- and rumors of others -- have touched off a fierce debate that's raging from patrol cars to the gun range to the chief's office. It's a sensitive topic in a department under federal supervision, partly because of complaints about excessive force. Chief Ella Bully-Cummings ordered the investigation. "Any time officers are concerned, in order to dispel those concerns, it's important that we look into the matter," said Bully-Cummings, adding that the type of ammunition the department is using "is one of the best." The .40-caliber bullets are manufactured by Federal Cartridge Co. of Anoka, Minn. They are known as expanding full metal jackets. The chief said they were first issued in January 2004, after years of urging by the police officers' union, which wants ammunition that will stop a threat but not so powerful that bullets plow through bodies and hurt other people. The chief said another worry of the officers is that body-piercing bullets -- known as full metal jackets -- sometimes allow gunmen, even after being hit, to continue to advance on officers while firing. Expanding full metal jackets differ from standard full metal jackets in that their tips are filled with a silicone-like substance and are designed to stop inside the body rather than exit. Rich Weaver, secretary-treasurer of the Detroit Police Officers Association, wants more answers. "We do know there were some recent incidents where some rounds did not take effect," he said Tuesday. "A bullet is supposed to go through winter clothes. We can't shut down for winter season." Detroit Police Sgt. Lawrence Semczak, a supervisor at the department's gun range, insists there is nothing wrong with the current bullets. "There's a major misperception out there right now," Semczak said. "It's all conjecture. The rounds do what they're intended to do, which is stop a threat." Evan Marshall, a retired Detroit police sergeant who lives in Midland, has written three books on ballistics. He's a proponent of the current ammunition. "It's certainly better than the standard full metal jacket, which will over-penetrate and endanger bystanders and other officers," Marshall said Tuesday. "A straight, full metal jacket will go through a target. It won't deform unless it hits a major bone." Federal Cartridge Co. said in a statement Tuesday that it is "working directly with the Detroit Police Department to support all of their ammunition research needs regarding this matter. It is impossible for us to respond in detail to this specific situation without doing further examination." Spokesman Jason Nash said in the statement: "We do have full confidence in our product based on extensive testing and previous live-fire field reports and will do all we can to support the Police Department's investigation." Nash said Detroit's bullets are also used by numerous other departments, and he knows of no other complaints. The first incident that sparked worry took place Feb. 1. A Detroit officer fired at a robbery suspect, who had fired a gun. The bullet hit the suspect's head but did not penetrate. He was hospitalized with a head wound, but an examination showed the bullet did not enter his skull -- perhaps because the man had a metal plate in his head from a previous injury. "The incident raised our concern," Bully-Cummings said. The second incident took place Feb. 12 when several officers from the 6th (Plymouth) Precinct shot and killed another robbery suspect, who was shooting at them. An officer was seriously wounded in the fusillade, and the suspect was struck 11 times. But when the officers and evidence technicians examined the man's body, they reported that at least one of the bullets had failed to penetrate his thick winter jacket. Evans, the ballistics expert, said: "We need to provide officers with the best ammunition they can find. Whatever you get, there is no guarantee that you're not going to have problems." The department was put under two federal consent decrees in 2003, one centering on use of force and witness detention procedures. Ron Scott, spokesman for the Coalition Against Police Brutality, said he's more upset by the frequency of police shootings of people. According to department spokesman James Tate, Detroit police have shot and killed three people so far this year and wounded two others in five separate incidents. Tate said officers were shot at in each incident. "I challenge them to prove that because people are wearing down coats, they need to pummel them with bullets," Scott said Tuesday. "When they keep doing it, people shoot back. They are starting a war." Contact BEN SCHMITT at 313-223-4296 or [email protected].