The Firing Line Forums - View Single Post

Dennis · June 19, 2002, 07:04 AM

Skorzeny,
I don't know which border you formerly secured, but I was intimately familiar with small portions of the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain. Between 1960 and 1976 I spent eleven years in Germany, nearly all within 1km of the border. I'm looking for a controlled border, not an Iron Curtain. We don't need mined strips, tank traps, sensor-triggered shotgun shells, etc.

On June 5, 2000, I suggested a method to close our U.S/Mexico border. This was before the Mexican military (or police or whoever) began coming to America to shoot (or shoot at) Americans.

The border should have two features:

1) The border should be so obviously impenetrable that nobody tries to cross the border illegally. NOBODY should get shot—not Americans, the "honest" illegals, the dope smugglers, the Mexican federales (or whomever)....

2) A safe, easy, and cheap method of facilitating border crossing for workers and tourists should be implemented. We don't need people dying in our deserts simply because they were starving in Mexico and are willing to work for a better life.

Here was my plan (somewhat edited), two years ago. I called it the Texas Two-Step:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...exico+military

Step One

Secure the border.

The U.S. government should create a training zone for our military from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Ocean with 8 ft chain link fences on each side.
Compensate land owners in a fair manner - it's cheaper than foreign aid, or the threat to American sovereignty and American lives (and property).

In that zone, conduct armed military maneuvers of all kinds (foot marches, mechanized rifle, armor, airborne assault, whatever it takes) to secure our border. Make it part of basic training. Lock and load.

The U.S./Mexico border is 2013 miles long.

Let’s say four troops can secure at least 528 feet of the border (on average), or about 10 groups of four per mile. That’s 40 troops per mile x 4 shifts x 2013 miles = 322,080 troops.
(That’s a warm body, 24/7, for every 132 feet of border.)

The U.S. Navy and Coast Guard (note the name..."Coast" and "Guard") should prevent unauthorized traffic around our border (in the Gulf of Mexico and the Pacific Ocean).

Just do it! Create a “sterile” strip between us and those who attack Americans.

Ensure cooperation between the military and local land owners to provide access as
needed.

Ensure cooperation between the military and the law enforcement people of every
stripe currently along the border.

Ensure cooperation between U.S. military bases near the border.
“You want close air support? Duck!”
“I love the smell of napalm in the morning!”

Put signs in Spanish and English on the fences.
- On the fence facing Mexico, “If you are found between the border and this fence, you die without warning.”
- On the fence facing the U.S., “Military training area. If you are found here, and survive, you will be sentenced to a $10,000 fine and ten years in prison.”

And mean it!

Step Two

Permit legal immigration for those who come to work. All we have to do is close off and control our border the same as the Canadians have against Americans at the Rainbow Bridge, Niagara Falls, NY.
----------------

A major objective is to reduce shootings to zero!

If we declared the border zone to be an active military exercise zone, nobody, but NObody would be so dumb as to challenge a G.I. with a gun (and a radio) on every 130-odd linear feet of border.

The posse comitatus act would have nothing to do with it. We can establish an "exercise area" anyplace we want.

I also want the "illegals" to be legalized so they don't have to be afraid to work in America and they can earn an honest wage without fear of INS raids in the workplace or their homes.

If we take care of those honest folks who want to work, the infiltrators would be the bad guys. Treat them like any American who becomes the target of the ATF. Apprehend infiltrators. If they use force, respond accordingly.
- - - - -

Closing the Canadian border may be tougher because of its length and remoteness. But I can answer your questions as they pertain to the U.S./Mexico border.

"1. How much military manpower this will require (in the millions),
2. How much money this will cost (in the trillions of trillions)"

A third of a million troops should do it. Furthermore, most of the manpower and necessary support already exist. Troops can march along the border with much the same cadence as at Fort Leonard Wood or (probably) a hundred other God-forsaken training areas similar to our border area. The Navy and the Coast Guard can patrol waters near the border just as well as Charleston harbor.

We already spend millions (or billions) to have troops "play in the dirt." That dirt could be in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona or California nearly as easily as in elsewhere in the United States (and a lot cheaper than in Kosovo, as an example).
The key is to relocate current resources as much as possible, not create new expenses.

"3. How much this will completely alter the character of the border states (armed camps), and
4. How this will change the character of our society (very militaristic)."

Land along the border would be lost for civilian use. Compensate the owners sufficiently. Think of it as "foreign aid" for Americans (for a change).

Some changes would be for the better. Ranchers no longer would have the stock killed (for food or simple pleasure) or their property destroyed (e.g. breaking irrigation pipes for water to stay alive, using line shacks as motels and then burning them out of stupidity, burglaries, etc.).

Wouldn't it be nice to provide Americans living along the border with a typical American environment rather than one similar to war-torn Beirut?

Oh, and as far as "militaristic" goes, I agree. But I consider that preferable to INS raids in restaurants during lunch and the crime we facilitate and create with our current hypocritical approach to border security. All in all, both honest Americans and honest Mexicans would be safer with no loss in freedom or Liberty and little increase in expense (by re-allocation of our current resources).

June 19, 2002, 07:04 AM	#23
Dennis Staff Emeritus Join Date: November 23, 1998 Location: a small forest in Texas Posts: 7,079	Skorzeny, I don't know which border you formerly secured, but I was intimately familiar with small portions of the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain. Between 1960 and 1976 I spent eleven years in Germany, nearly all within 1km of the border. I'm looking for a controlled border, not an Iron Curtain. We don't need mined strips, tank traps, sensor-triggered shotgun shells, etc. On June 5, 2000, I suggested a method to close our U.S/Mexico border. This was before the Mexican military (or police or whoever) began coming to America to shoot (or shoot at) Americans. The border should have two features: 1) The border should be so obviously impenetrable that nobody tries to cross the border illegally. NOBODY should get shot—not Americans, the "honest" illegals, the dope smugglers, the Mexican federales (or whomever).... 2) A safe, easy, and cheap method of facilitating border crossing for workers and tourists should be implemented. We don't need people dying in our deserts simply because they were starving in Mexico and are willing to work for a better life. Here was my plan (somewhat edited), two years ago. I called it the Texas Two-Step: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...exico+military Step One Secure the border. The U.S. government should create a training zone for our military from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Ocean with 8 ft chain link fences on each side. Compensate land owners in a fair manner - it's cheaper than foreign aid, or the threat to American sovereignty and American lives (and property). In that zone, conduct armed military maneuvers of all kinds (foot marches, mechanized rifle, armor, airborne assault, whatever it takes) to secure our border. Make it part of basic training. Lock and load. The U.S./Mexico border is 2013 miles long. Let’s say four troops can secure at least 528 feet of the border (on average), or about 10 groups of four per mile. That’s 40 troops per mile x 4 shifts x 2013 miles = 322,080 troops. (That’s a warm body, 24/7, for every 132 feet of border.) The U.S. Navy and Coast Guard (note the name..."Coast" and "Guard") should prevent unauthorized traffic around our border (in the Gulf of Mexico and the Pacific Ocean). Just do it! Create a “sterile” strip between us and those who attack Americans. Ensure cooperation between the military and local land owners to provide access as needed. Ensure cooperation between the military and the law enforcement people of every stripe currently along the border. Ensure cooperation between U.S. military bases near the border. “You want close air support? Duck!” “I love the smell of napalm in the morning!” Put signs in Spanish and English on the fences. - On the fence facing Mexico, “If you are found between the border and this fence, you die without warning.” - On the fence facing the U.S., “Military training area. If you are found here, and survive, you will be sentenced to a $10,000 fine and ten years in prison.” And mean it! Step Two Permit legal immigration for those who come to work. All we have to do is close off and control our border the same as the Canadians have against Americans at the Rainbow Bridge, Niagara Falls, NY. ---------------- A major objective is to reduce shootings to zero! If we declared the border zone to be an active military exercise zone, nobody, but NObody would be so dumb as to challenge a G.I. with a gun (and a radio) on every 130-odd linear feet of border. The posse comitatus act would have nothing to do with it. We can establish an "exercise area" anyplace we want. I also want the "illegals" to be legalized so they don't have to be afraid to work in America and they can earn an honest wage without fear of INS raids in the workplace or their homes. If we take care of those honest folks who want to work, the infiltrators would be the bad guys. Treat them like any American who becomes the target of the ATF. Apprehend infiltrators. If they use force, respond accordingly. - - - - - Closing the Canadian border may be tougher because of its length and remoteness. But I can answer your questions as they pertain to the U.S./Mexico border. "1. How much military manpower this will require (in the millions), 2. How much money this will cost (in the trillions of trillions)" A third of a million troops should do it. Furthermore, most of the manpower and necessary support already exist. Troops can march along the border with much the same cadence as at Fort Leonard Wood or (probably) a hundred other God-forsaken training areas similar to our border area. The Navy and the Coast Guard can patrol waters near the border just as well as Charleston harbor. We already spend millions (or billions) to have troops "play in the dirt." That dirt could be in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona or California nearly as easily as in elsewhere in the United States (and a lot cheaper than in Kosovo, as an example). The key is to relocate current resources as much as possible, not create new expenses. "3. How much this will completely alter the character of the border states (armed camps), and 4. How this will change the character of our society (very militaristic)." Land along the border would be lost for civilian use. Compensate the owners sufficiently. Think of it as "foreign aid" for Americans (for a change). Some changes would be for the better. Ranchers no longer would have the stock killed (for food or simple pleasure) or their property destroyed (e.g. breaking irrigation pipes for water to stay alive, using line shacks as motels and then burning them out of stupidity, burglaries, etc.). Wouldn't it be nice to provide Americans living along the border with a typical American environment rather than one similar to war-torn Beirut? Oh, and as far as "militaristic" goes, I agree. But I consider that preferable to INS raids in restaurants during lunch and the crime we facilitate and create with our current hypocritical approach to border security. All in all, both honest Americans and honest Mexicans would be safer with no loss in freedom or Liberty and little increase in expense (by re-allocation of our current resources).