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Old July 10, 2009, 08:44 PM   #51
alloy
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My local department doesn't carry .380's as far as I can tell, but...I only reload in the daylight.
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Old July 10, 2009, 08:48 PM   #52
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If the question is using handloads, I assume that means you can actually produce those handloads. So isn't that the real problem used against a person in court, regardless of using them or not?
Actually, there have been two potential issues raised.

One is that certain facts surrounding the load selection and development might be used to help establish state of mind--to indicate that the shooter may have had some predisposition toward harming someone. Fact of the matter is, choosing an exotic factory load that is advertised as causing maximal tissue damage could be introduced for the same purpose.

The other is the likelihood that scientific forensic trace evidence from hand loads would not be admitted in court. If the lack of gunshot residue on someone who had been shot were to be used by the prosecution to try to prove that the distance of the shot indicated against justifiability (too long=apparent lack of imminent danger), but the loads used would not have left GSR even at a shorter range, the inability of the defense to use that evidence could prove critical.

As has been previously stated, those factors would not prove very important if there were ample evidence supporting the shooter's claim of self defense. But in cases in which the evidence supporting the shooter's claim is sparse, either one or both just might matter a lot.

Does this help?
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Old July 10, 2009, 09:03 PM   #53
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As has been previously stated, those factors would not prove very important if there were ample evidence supporting the shooter's claim of self defense. But in cases in which the evidence supporting the shooter's claim is sparse, either one or both just might matter a lot.

Does this help?
Yeah, pretty much how I view the entire matter.
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Old July 10, 2009, 09:46 PM   #54
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Good post, OldMarksman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldMarksman
...those factors would not prove very important if there were ample evidence supporting the shooter's claim of self defense. But in cases in which the evidence supporting the shooter's claim is sparse, either one or both just might matter a lot....
And if it happens to you, there is no way you can know ahead of time whether in your particular case there will be ample evidence to support your claim of self defense or if, when the smoke clears, the evidence will be sparse that you were justified in using lethal force.

Everyone who has ever been on trial after a self defense shooting probably thought (at least somewhere in the back of his mind) as he pulled the trigger that he was right -- that he had no choice. But the fact that he wound up on trial shows that in the aftermath the prosecutor found good reason to challenge the claim of justification and to believe that he could get a jury to agree.

It also may help to think of the issue in terms of a paraphrase of Pascal's wager: I don't know if using handloads (or disabling a safety device on my gun, or adjusting my trigger to be very light) will adversely affect the outcome if I am on trial for using my gun in what I claim was self defense, but I really have nothing to gain by using handloads, (etc.) even if it won't affect the outcome (because I can get adequate performance without engaging in those behaviors -- i. e., by using quality, commercial ammunition, by using a different gun, learning to better manage the one I have, etc.). However, I have a great deal to lose if using handloads (etc.) would adversely affect the outcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alloy
My local department doesn't carry .380's as far as I can tell,...
You can still use the same make/type.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alloy
...I only reload in the daylight.
Do you really think anyone's going to believe that.
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Old July 12, 2009, 09:45 PM   #55
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Handloads for self defense = bad idea. You also want to avoid factory loads that produce duds on a regular basis. I have never had a dud from Speer Gold Dot, though I have had a few from Remington Golden Saber and Winchester.
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Old July 19, 2009, 10:08 PM   #56
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That's a lot to take in. I'm actually sorry I asked. And I will try to research old posts for information before asking questions.

I do appreciate all the information, and the research required to establish case law precedent. Hopefully it will never be an issue.
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Old July 19, 2009, 10:44 PM   #57
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Only the Kennedy case justifies that fear. One case.

I think that's bunk. You talk as though the time and effort on the part of the defense attorney, spent debunking the prosecution's or plaintiff's argument, means nothing because it was refutted in the end after further depletion of the defendent's life savings.


Quote:
Quote:
I believe he charges a fee to testify as an expert witness. Most fees for expert testimony are high: couple hundred dollars per hour up.

Old Marksman replies: Plus travel and per diem. A court case can drag on and on, be scheduled to resume on a Tuesday and get pushed back day by day until the week is gone.
Ayoob has addressed that issue before and it seems your estimate of his charges differs greatly with his address of the matter.
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Old July 20, 2009, 12:07 AM   #58
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it's a real mess......it makes a good man REAL mad to see what could happen to him in case of self defense, regardless of what was use for ammo. May as well walk around with a baseball bat, maybe bash a few lawyers for creating all this mess, specially zealot prosecutors.....Look at what the nice democrat and republican bunch in Sacramento have created in California. Truly, American people are being pushed too far. This is a very intructional thread and I'm very gratefull to you people for your input. So be it, I'll have to buy factory ammo.....Thanks, Dan
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Old July 20, 2009, 03:48 AM   #59
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it's a real mess......it makes a good man REAL mad to see what could happen to him in case of self defense, regardless of what was use for ammo.
I agree. They'll have enough arrows to shoot at you without putting more in their quiver.
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Old July 20, 2009, 08:05 AM   #60
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Fiddletown...that's as good a summation of the argument against handload use for self defense as I've ever heard. Thanks from all of us.

The phrase often quoted by of us is: "better judged by twelve, than carried by six". My vote is for neither. Good planning and common street sense always help but may not prevent an incident. Use of factory loads in an arm of suitable but not extreme design will also help. Regards, Rodfac
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Old July 20, 2009, 08:20 AM   #61
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my own reloads

I have never had any failure with my own reloads...
I use good components and equipment and use
good practices in the loading process...personally,
I have no hesitation using my own reloads. I can
understand why general advice would be no,
as the quality and skill of the loading may vary a
great deal and may be of unknown sourcing, but
good, proper reloading should not be a big concern
for anyone. just verify your sources and
reliaibility, or even better, do your own and do it right
and be happy.
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Old July 20, 2009, 05:23 PM   #62
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It does not have to be a reload used in self-defense that will get a zealot to put you in jail. I forget where I read this report, but it was about a school teacher taking a walk in a desert trail near Phoenix AR , and he shot a man dead with a 10 mm . He stopped a driver on the fwy and ask him to call the sheriff to report the shooting. After investigation , he was arrested and convicted of murder for shooting a criminal in self defense with a gun that was more powerfull than the one carried by local sheriff dept. What else is new...??? Dan :barf:
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Old July 20, 2009, 06:31 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by dandydany
...I forget where I read this report, but it was about a school teacher taking a walk in a desert trail near Phoenix AR , and he shot a man dead with a 10 mm...
That was the Harold Fish case. One of the jurors in a post verdict interview specifically said he was troubled by Fish's use of JHP ammunition.

But before you all go trading in your JHPs, remember risk versus utility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown in post 26
In any case, you're also ignoring the risk versus utility analysis.

There is a risk my training will be used against me. But my training increases my chances for survival. Therefore, I have prepared to meet attacks on my training.

There is a risk that my use of commercial JHP ammunition will be used against me. But I am convinced that such ammunition is more effective, and its use will increase my chances of survival. I have therefore prepared to meet attacks on my use of JHP ammunition.

There is a risk that use of handloads could be used against me. But I have no reason to believe that using handloads will improve my chances of a favorable outcome on the street. Therefore, I don't use them for self defense....
In any case, Fish has a "happy ending." Fish won his appeal and the convict tossed out. The appeal would usually mean a new trial, but I understand that the prosecutor has thus far said that he would not bother re-trying Mr. Fish.

But the Fish case does have some lessons for us:

[1] The type of ammunition used can influence jurors.

[2] You're not safe just because you're in a gun friendly state. Arizona is a gun friendly state, and an Arizona jury convicted Harold Fish the first time around.
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Old July 20, 2009, 10:00 PM   #64
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Quote:
But the Fish case does have some lessons for us:

[1] The type of ammunition used can influence jurors.

[2] You're not safe just because you're in a gun friendly state. Arizona is a gun friendly state, and an Arizona jury convicted Harold Fish the first time around.But the Fish case does have some lessons for us:
More lessons:

3. Don't hire a bozo of an attorney who makes no attempt to make a case for the use of HP ammo by pointing out that the Police use it for a reason, or bring in testimony who can.

4. Don't hire a bozo of an attorney who makes no attempt to debunk the "10mm is unnecessarily powerful" contention by pointing out he was hiking in bear and lion country where it wouldn't be too powerful at all.
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Old July 20, 2009, 10:08 PM   #65
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I have never had any failure with my own reloads...
Not the point, Tresspass. It's a legal issue.

Aside from what's been pointed out, once a shooting takes place, ammo in your gun is now evidence that won't be used for testing that could prove your case.

None of your other handloads will be accepted as evidence, either, since you can't prove it's the same ammo.


I believe that happened in the aforementioned suicide case where the husband was arrested for murder. Full power factory ammo , used for testing, showed lot's of stipling and powder residue on the victim. The handloaded target ammo that killed her would have shown much less stipling, but that ammo was not used for the test--it was evidence!

The prosecution contended she was shot at too long a distance for it to have been a suicide. Correct analysis with factory ammo, but not for the light target load that killed her. Tests with the ammo actually used in the suicide would have produced stipling consistent with the crime scene.

Last edited by Nnobby45; July 20, 2009 at 10:17 PM.
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Old July 21, 2009, 01:14 AM   #66
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Nnobby45 's remark makes me feel worse as he points out what the lawyer should have done. So now, that poor man is in jail ( not you Nnobby45 ). Fiddletown, I'm sorry if my remark about lawyer hurt you, I understand that there are good and bad guys in the profession...BG are popping out every where...But as I reload too, I'll use your advice and buy factory ammo, but NOT hollow point as I have read enough articles about hollow point not being THAT good....I'll use .45 cal 230 gr for ccw and 255 gr flat point for practice and that is not a common load for the LEOs. In my corner of Norhern Cal, the deputies seem to carry .40 cal. guns. I read that hollow point have a tendency to get the cavity filled by cloth or bones or meat , whatever is worn by BG, so the projectile does not always behave the way it was design. I'll pick up my G36 this week-end and buy a 9mm Hi-Point ( heheheheh, I know, I know :barf: ) so I wont loose much if it is confiscated for evidence. Dan
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Old July 21, 2009, 03:01 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dandydany
Nnobby45 's remark makes me feel worse as he points out what the lawyer should have done. So now, that poor man is in jail ( not you Nnobby45 ). Fiddletown, I'm sorry if my remark about lawyer hurt you,...
Not to worry. One has to have a thick skin in my [former] line of work, and I'm not necessarily a fan of [other] lawyers. But I think I have to clarify some things about Harold Fish's lawyer.

[1] Based on my reading of Fish's appeal brief and the court of appeals decision tossing out the verdict, it's probably unfair to blame everything on Fish's lawyer. It looks like Fish's lawyer was prevented from putting on some evidence and making some appropriate arguments by certain rulings of the trial judge. The court of appeals found at least some of those rulings to have been erroneous and therefore overturned the verdict. So Fish's lawyer tried to do some of the things he needed to, but he was blocked.

[2] We've talked here about the ways in which a claim of self defense is unique. The thing is that criminal defense lawyers usually have very little experience with self defense claims. The typical defenses in criminal cases are: I wasn't there (alibi); I didn't do it (some other dude done it); It was an accident; I was insane. Criminal defense lawyers have a lot of experience with these defenses, and they do them well.

But self defense is completely different. If you claim self defense, you admit you were there, you did it, you intended to do it, and you knew what you were doing. Handling a self defense claim is unique, and few lawyers have much experience with them.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; July 21, 2009 at 05:26 AM.
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Old July 21, 2009, 07:19 AM   #68
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Just another thought...with no offense to fiddletown meant...the whole object of this ammunition and gun discussion is to avoid the possibility of being charged for anything in the event that we are forced to use a weapon in self defense. Given a gun and ammunition choice that satisfies the first priority...defense of one's presonal safety and that of his family...the best choice is one that raises no potential issues with police, prosecuters and the criminal or civil court system. Fiddletown may agree...even if we're vindicated in court, the cost will be enormous, bankrupting most of us... I vote for a choice that saves me fiddletown's "enormous" fee, and my family the potential expense of travel to see me in an orange jumpsuit! From my perspective, and from Ayoob's apparently, that means factory ammunition.
Regards, Rodfac
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Old July 21, 2009, 01:34 PM   #69
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Seems like we're giving up to the lawyer/prosecuter. Us who are living in the boondocks have a build-in reason to handload, and that is the 4-legs predators. Black bears are not too dangerous if one live them alone and stay away from their wanderings, but mountain lions are another story;neighbors told me of the big cat roaming on my lawn and black bears are a common sight. The big cat is a problem as you never know if it is trailing you until it's too late. Therefore, I load my .45 acp for those critters and if burglar /s happen to break -in while I'm home , I will not have time to look for my ccw gun.... the hpC9mm. I could be in the room where my shotgun is...too bad.
That another example of self defense and a good one for the defense lawyer, as it involve home invasion , armed robbery etc...So , all is not lost after all as one can always claim that " I misplace my dedicated ccw piece " or " I forgot it was loaded for bear ". I sure hope I never have to find myself in such situation and I'm sure all of you guys do too...Nice talking to you, Dan
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Old July 21, 2009, 02:05 PM   #70
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Therefore, I load my .45 acp for those critters and if burglar /s happen to break -in while I'm home , I will not have time to look for my ccw gun.... the hpC9mm. I could be in the room where my shotgun is...too bad.
Just a thought from a lay person---

In an incident involving the forcible entry of one's home, it would seem to me that the likelihood that a claim of self defense would be somewhat less likely to be challenged than might be the case in some other scenarios. It would usually be rather evident that the person who broke in was in fact the assailant, I think.

And if it were challenged, one factor that as been discussed--admissibility of GSR evidence--might be a lot less critical. Other forensic evidence would likely establish the distance of the shot, should that even become, for some reason, relevant to the investigation.

And the other factor (state of mind)? Well, you loaded (those rounds) for bear (and had every reason to have done so)!

Last edited by OldMarksman; July 21, 2009 at 02:23 PM.
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Old July 21, 2009, 02:22 PM   #71
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I'll use your advice and buy factory ammo, but NOT hollow point as I have read enough articles about hollow point not being THAT good....I'll use .45 cal 230 gr for ccw and 255 gr flat point for practice and that is not a common load for the LEOs. In my corner of Norhern Cal, the deputies seem to carry .40 cal. guns. I read that hollow point have a tendency to get the cavity filled by cloth or bones or meat , whatever is worn by BG, so the projectile does not always behave the way it was designed. -- Dan
Dan, I live in a populous area and I choose hollow points partly so the bullets will be less likely to keep going and hit an innocent person. Sounds like that may not be of much concern where you live.

My other reason is increased effectiveness. I've never shot anyone and hope never to do so, but I do want them to stop if I do. That means a balance of penetration and expansion, which would seem to call for hollow points that do not clog.

For that reason, I've chosen Hornady Critical Defense rounds for the .38 and 9MM.

That hasn't been easy to find on the shelves, and dealer I trust just recommended Glaser's Pow'RBall in .45 ACP. It too has a polymer insert. and as an old user of .45 ACP ball ammo I like the shape. Haven't tried it yet but the guys at the store say it works in their .45s.

Here's a link.

http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/glaser/powrball.htm

Tad bit off the original topic but I hope it proves helpful.
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Old July 21, 2009, 04:08 PM   #72
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THAT good....I'll use .45 cal 230 gr for ccw and 255 gr flat point for practice and that is not a common load for the LEOs.
No, don't. Use the same ammo that the police would use to protect your life, the lives of other citizens, the lives of their brother/sister officers, and their own lives as well. Try naming an agency more liability conscious than LE.


To have just one jury member predjudiced against extremely court defensible HP's, because it wasn't properly explained to them, after the prosecution made an issue of it, is the travesty.

Would you rather have your attorney be forced to make a case for over-penetrative ball ammo that richocetts more wildly, and requires more citizen endangering shots to be fired, that the police won't even use for those reasons?

Since an opposing attorney could try to make a case against any ammo you use, go with that which is proven court defensible. Hollow points--which is to your advantage inside or outside of the courtroom.

Last edited by Nnobby45; July 21, 2009 at 04:38 PM.
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Old July 21, 2009, 04:29 PM   #73
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Thank you for all the factory ammo tips Old Marskman. Very educative thread for Ran....heheheh and me ...Dan
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Old July 21, 2009, 06:23 PM   #74
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Old Marksman, no one in my mind (my opinion) could have said it better! I really enjoyed your information, opinion and comment of which I fully AGREE!!!! Thanks,
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Old July 21, 2009, 07:12 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dandydany
Seems like we're giving up to the lawyer/prosecuter....
How do you figure? Sure, give him something he can use against you. That'll show him. Seriously, it's all about dealing with the real world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dandydany
...Us who are living in the boondocks have a build-in reason to handload, and that is the 4-legs predators. Black bears are not too dangerous if one live them alone and stay away from their wanderings, but mountain lions are another story;neighbors told me of the big cat roaming on my lawn and black bears are a common sight. The big cat is a problem as you never know if it is trailing you until it's too late....
And that's a good story and could work. Just remember that there are no guarantees. Sometimes you have to take a calculated risk.

It's like choosing JHPs. They are generally regarded as the best overall choice for two legged nasties, but they have some potential downsides in court as Harold Fish discovered. Nonetheless, I choose them for my SD needs and, if the worst happens, will need to rely the argument that I use them because they are the overwhelming choice of LE.

But remember, no matter how good your argument for using handloads is, if you need GSR evidence, you're still out of luck.
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