.357 Magnum for home defence?

[sourdough44]

Is a Labrador a good family dog??

[Pappy John]

A .357 indoors, fired say, in an enclosed hallway, would be like a flash/bang grenade going off. Everyone in the area would be momentarily stunned, shooter included.

I'd prefer something bigger and slower (sub-sonic) for my home defense gun, like a .44 special or .45 acp.

YMMV

[vanilla_gorilla]

For those who keep repeating this ".357 magnum is too loud for indoors" crap...google auditory exclusion. It is VERY well documented, and is not a new phenomenon.

Then quit spouting BS.

[Geek-With-A-Gun]

Color me weird but...I think there's something positive about a really loud round.

As in "holy CRAP dude's shootin' at us with a f$%# CANNON - RUUUUN AWAAAAY!!!!"

Personally, I think that the mere sight of a .357 mag is likely to make a BG **** in his pants and run.

[Mello2u]

vanilla_gorilla

For those who keep repeating this ".357 magnum is too loud for indoors" crap...google auditory exclusion. It is VERY well documented, and is not a new phenomenon.

Then quit spouting BS.
__________________

You may be correct to some extent to the effect of muzzle blast on stunning the shooter; however, hearing damage is another matter. It would most likely be an case by case basis, with each individual having a different degree of effect depending upon the state of mind at the time, the amount of personal experience/practice in that sort of situation to desensitize the shooter and so forth.

Hearing damage from shooting without hearing protection is not BS.

So we are talking about two different things. Auditory exclusion is a mental perception, not a physical shield.

This shows an electron microscope image of healthy cochlear cilia.


This shows an electron microscope image of cochlear cilia with some damage.


This shows an electron microscope image of extensively damaged cochlear cilia.


This damage can occur with each exposure to sound energy exceeding the physical ability of the cilia to withstand breakage. Therefore, it is cumulative. Once they are broken they are forever gone.

They do not repair. Tinnitus (ringing in the ears) is directly related to damaged/lost cilia.

[KingEdward]

Yes, a Ruger GP 100 is a good choice.

I believe that a Smith and Wesson 686P is a slightly better choice.

I have the 686P (7 shot) in a 3" barrel and it is a great revolver
with a nice trigger and I like having the extra round.

[Dave85]

Any handgun fired indoors will be loud enough to hurt. Even a .22. Firing any of the standard defensive cartridges (.38 Spl., 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, etc.) indoors or, in manny cases outdoors, will be enough to cause permanent damage in many situations.

When you fire a gun defensively, you are trying to stay alive. If you have to do so, you stand the strong chance of trading some hearing for your life.

[bikerbill]

I love the .357 round and keep a Taurus 617 (7 rds in a steel snubbie) with me while I'm home during the day. I also have a Smith 686+, IMHO one of the finest revolvers going and easily a match for any Ruger made. I love shooting it and it's extremely accurate. I like shooting .357s at the range, tho if either was my nightstand gun, it would probably carry Hornady Critical Defense .38s. My nightstand gun is a 1911, with eight rounds and a reload right next to it.

[sakeneko]

IMHO .357 magnum ammunition is best avoided in home defense situations or in any defensive situation where you will be indoors and shooting without benefit of ear protection. Even for those who don't have my sensitivity to loud noise, the blast of a full-bore .357 load would likely disorient and might disable for a significant period, meaning that you either don't get the second and subsequent shots off or miss when you do. In addition. .357 magnum ammunition is far more likely to penetrate outer walls and hit unintended targets than a less powerful load.

The Ruger GP-100 would make a good home defense weapon, but load it with .38 +P ammunition for home defense.

Another alternative with superior force projection and less chance of overpenetration would be a good shotgun loaded with #2 shot for apartments, or 00 buck for a house. I'm told that 00 can penetrate interior or apartment walls, and was advised to downsize to #2 or #4 shot at home. The blast from a shotgun is also considerable and would likely leave your ears ringing if you shoot inside a dwelling, but if you are willing to risk that, better do it with a shotgun and get the added force projection. ;-)

[Pappy John]

Hey, v.g., why don't you walk into your bathroom, crank off a .357, then come back and tell me how that "auditory exclusion" worked out for ya.

Talk loud so you can hear yourself.

[woad_yurt]

.357s are the loudest handguns and they'll definitely mess up the ears. I had a guy shooting one in the both next to us at the range and, even with all of our ear protection, it was downright uncomfortable.

I think he thought it amusing, since he ignored all of the empty stations and set himself up next to us, the only other people there. He barely kept his shots on paper. My then girlfriend said a few choice words and chased him away. She was cool that way.

For those who keep repeating this ".357 magnum is too loud for indoors" crap...google auditory exclusion.

So, if no one hears a tree falling, it makes no noise? How one percieves a noise has nothing to do with whether or not that noise is loud enough to do physical harm to one's hearing.

[gwnorth]

Some actual data:

http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml

The peak sound energy is usually measures about 12 inches from the muzzel, off to the side (of course). A .357 magnum produces a peak sound level capable of causing instant and permanent deafness. However, the peak sound pulse is short lived, and the effect depends a lot on where you are relative to the sound, how rapidly the pressure wave can dissipate (eg. outside versus in a confined space) and so on, so it is pretty much impossible to predict what would happen in any particular situation.

Personally, I use .38spl+p loads in my .357 revolvers for home defense, mostly just because I find them much more controllable, especially for followup shots (I have a 4" Ruger GP100, 4" Police Service Six, and a recently acquired 3" S&W 65-3 that get deployed in the HD role at times).

[vanilla_gorilla]

Hey, v.g., why don't you walk into your bathroom, crank off a .357, then come back and tell me how that "auditory exclusion" worked out for ya.

Talk loud so you can hear yourself.

I suspected a rational conversation involving accounts from those who are experienced in such things would be unlikely.

Once again, I find myself correct.

[pinetree]

I have a 3" SP101 in 357 and love it. I wanted a compact revolver that could serve time at home, truck or woods. I do CC it some. I like the SP as it is versatile. I only carry magnums in the woods opting for 38 +P (or moderate 357's - I handload) for home/carry. The 357 out of the 3" tube is LOUD. I made the mistake of shooting it once without protection. I am usually very good about carrying plugs or muffs. The GP is a great gun. But, bigger and heavier and not really a cc weapon if you eventually go that route. I suggest shooting like sized guns at a range. The GP should be easier to shoot well. Either would serve great in the home though I'd prefer a shotgun.

[Geek-With-A-Gun]

Thanks for all of the comments and advice. I understand that firing a .357 indoors without hearing protection will damage the ears, but my sincere hope is that I will never have to experience that in a HD setting. I do know however that I will sacrifice some hearing rather than sacrifice the life of my wife or myself. That being said, I will go with the .38 special rounds for HD.

[BGutzman]

357. should be a very good choice, however depending on if you have kids and how close your neighbors live and some thoughts about what your walls and floor might be constructed of.

I would be concerned about over penetration or in the case you miss how many walls is the bullet going to go through.

Just some things to think about but still a very good gun(s).

You may also want to consider a Super 45 which is a upgraded 45 with upgraded ammunition.

[Geek-With-A-Gun]

357. should be a very good choice, however depending on if you have kids and how close your neighbors live and some thoughts about what your walls and floor might be constructed of.

I would be concerned about over penetration or in the case you miss how many walls is the bullet going to go through.

No kids in the house and the exterior walls of all of the houses in the neighborhood are brick, so even if the round should somehow go through the interior wall and the exterior wall of my house, it should have lost enough energy that it wouldn't go through the exterior wall of someone else's house.

[Laz]

That being said, I will go with the .38 special rounds for HD.

I followed the same reasoning and it eventually caused me to begin to migrate to .45 acp. I figure if I'm going to go to a "lesser" caliber (.38 Spl) to mitigate the issues with .357, I might as well go with a different gun and caliber altogether and gain the benefits of the the "big and slow" school of thought. People argue the merits of .357 vs. .45 acp but I don't think anyone would deny that, good as the .38 Special 158 LSWCHP+P is, a good 230 grain JHP in .45 acp is better. More caliber, more weight at approximately the same velocity as the .38.

I still keep a couple of .357s around but they are loaded with 158 grain Federal Nyclad .357.

[stevieboy]

As a preface, I fire a LOT of .357 rounds. It's my round of choice for range fun with my S & W 686 and 27. Ok. Now, here's some food for thought.
(1) .357s are uber powerful. A 158 gr. round, which is what I mostly fire, moves along at about 1200 fps. A 125 grainer, the really hot round, gives you 1400 fps+. (2) They are uber loud. That is especially true with the 125 gr. round, which, IMO, produces a more penetrating report than even a .44 magnum round. (3) In shorter barreled guns they are likely to produce a significant muzzle flash.

Now, my first question is: who needs 1200 fps or more to protect oneself in one's home? Do you think that the bad guys are going to line up, one in front of another so that a single shot can do all of them in? Or, are you interested in literally waking the neighbors when your round passes through your house and the neighbor's house as well (note: a couple of years ago there was a shooting on my street. The bullet passed through the victim, the exterior wall of a house a block away, and lodged in the opposing interior wall. The round wasn't a magnum round, but a 9mm or a 40 S & W).

My second question is: do you want to go around saying "huh?" and "what?" in response to everything that's said to you for the rest of your life? Take my word for it: even with ear protection a full house 125 gr. magnum round is something awesome to behold.

And, my final question is: are you prepared for the recoil? I fire 125 grainers less and less often these days because, frankly, my hands can't stand the abuse. I have a permanent sore spot at the base of my right thumb, in all probability due to firing too many magnum rounds. When I fire the hot stuff, my first reaction usually is to say "ouch" and only then to look for where the bullet went. I can't imagine getting in a situation with those rounds where one has to fire and reacquire the target quickly.

Lately, I've discovered the joys of shooting .38+P from my magnums. They shoot relatively softly at about 1000 fps or less, without blinding muzzle flash or ear shattering noise. I hope fervently that I never have to defend myself with a handgun but, if I do, .38+P would be my round of choice.

[Ichiro]

^^^

Good point here.

[Webleymkv]

There are a lot of misconceptions floating around about the .357 Magnum as a self-defense cartridge. First, the 125grn full-power Magnums are IMHO, overrated. While these rounds are definately very good, there are other loadings, IMHO, that are equally as good.

With regards to the flash and noise of the .357, I think alot of its vicious reputation comes from the afforementioned 125grn loadings. I prefer the heavier 140-158grn full power loadings for just this reason: the flash and noise are much more tolerable. Please note that I'm not talking about light or midrange loadings here but rather those which deliver a 140-158grn bullet at 1200-1300fps and generate in excess of 500 ft.lbs. of muzzle energy. I have personally fired a limited number (six rounds to be exact) of Cor-Bon 140grn JHP (published velocity of 1300fps) from a S&W M66 with a 2 1/2" barrel (short barrel typically accentuate flash and noise) in the dark without hearing protection so that I would know exactly how bad it was. While the flash and noise were certainly noticable, they were not disorenting (my night vision was unaffected and despite a ringing in my ears I could still hear what was going on around me). Understand that any handgun of decent caliber fired without hearing protection, particularly indoors, is going to be very loud and will probably cause some permanent hearing damage. I was also once present when a .44 Special was negligently discharged indoors. The .44 Special is often reccomended as having less flash and noise (the particular loading that was fired, a Fedral 200grn LSWCHP, is only rated for 870fps) but my ears rang just as much as they had with the .357 Magnum.

Overpenetration is another issue that often scares people away from the .357 Magnum for home-defense use. While the round is quite penetrative and certainly will go through interior walls, other handgun calibers do not eliminate this risk. Nearly any bullet that meets the FBI's 12-16" penetration standard (and most modern self-defense loadings do) has the potential to pass completely through an erect biped. Likewise the sheetrock interior walls of most homes aren't all that hard to pierce and can be penetrated with a .22 Long Rifle or birdshot-loaded shotgun. A relative of mine once had an accidental discharge (it was truly accidental as the firearm malfunctioned) with a shell of 16ga birdshot (#6 or #7 if memory serves). The pattern penetrated two interior walls and stopped in a third. Likewise, the ND with the .44 Special I mentioned earlier penetrated one interior wall the carpet and padding on the floor in the next room and skidded 6-8 inches across the concrete floor under the carpet before finally coming to rest. I think that perhaps the better solution to the overpenetration issue lies in tactics rather than caliber or ammunition. One should try to position themselves in their home in such a was as to minimize the risk to bystanders. Also, what to do in the event of a home invasion is a topic that should be discussed with everyone in your home (assuming they are old enough to understand of course).

The only real issue with using a .357 Magnum for self-defense is recoil. The cartridge does have substantial recoil in comparison to other common SD rounds like 9mm, .38 Special, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. However, an experienced shooter can still shoot a .357 Magnum both quickly and accurately. If you are new to magnum-caliber revolvers, I suggest you start with mild .38 Specials and work your way up by progressing to .38 +P, mild .357's like Winchester's 110grn JHP or Remington's Golden Saber, and then to full-power .357's going up in power only when you can shoot both quickly and accurately with what you're currently using. Using this method, I've found that most people, even children as young as 12-13 years old, can learn to handle the recoil of the .357 Magnum and even larger calibers like .41 and .44 Magnum.

[oneounceload]

Once again, I find myself correct

Not hardly, v.g. while your brain might try, fact is the blast will deafen you whether you realize it or not. In this case, perception is NOT reality, no matter how correct you think you are......

[mathman]

Yes, the blast from a 357 is tremendous...absolutely tremendous. I believe that it is worse than a 44 mag. They do make lower flash, blast and recoil rounds that are 357 and slightly more powerful than 38 +P. These would be the best choice for the 357 IMO.

This gets back to some basic logic for me. I am only grabbing a handgun for defense if a rifle or shotgun is unavailable. And although rifles and shotguns are loud, they are not as loud as full power 357 loads.

I'm grabbing the scattergun if I get the chance.

[EnoughGUN]

OK, first I am in NO way any sort of "expert" but my thought are this. I do not disagree that a 357 mag may be unpleasent when fired inside but considering IF and when the time comes to use it to save your life you are going to be far more concerned with stoping a threat then with hearing loss. I have fred a 44mag with no protection (WOW not the smartest thing I have done) and it dropped me to my knees. The first issue is this. Will it stop a threat? YES and from what I have gathered from accounts of shootings it will be vastly more effective then say a 9mm or 45. If you are of the thought that the most important thing is to be safe and be safe instantly then a 357 is a better bet. Remember you will not be firing it inside with no protection a lot, just when it is needed to save your life. Again I am not an expert but from what I have been taught when you do use it you will most likely not even remember the sound much less be incapacitated by it. Myself I think a 45 would be perfectly suitable and maybe more friendly but a 357 would have a greater chance of doing the job possibly at a greater cost to your ears.
I disagree with the shotgun as the best HD weapon only because unless you have an auto follow up shots can be slower and mostly because the length of mos shotguns makes it easier for an intruder to grap the gun and the length makes it harder to move around tight quarters. Myself I would trade the power of a 357 for the ease of use and follow up shot ability of a 45.

[Webleymkv]

I think that perhaps the better solution to the overpenetration issue lies in tactics rather than caliber or ammunition.

I disagree with the shotgun as the best HD weapon only because unless you have an auto follow up shots can be slower and mostly because the length of mos shotguns makes it easier for an intruder to grap the gun and the length makes it harder to move around tight quarters.

I find the whole handgun vs. long gun debate somewhat perplexing. However, as I don't want to hijack the thread, I'll open another one elsewhere. A link will be coming shortly.