Shotgun shell reloading question....

[iudoug]

I do lots of duck hunting and some sporting clays shooting to stay sharp. My duck loads are 1450 ft per second. The stuff I buy for clays will be 1150 to 1300 fps. Would love to shoot 1450 all the time at clays and ducks. Is there a load out there capable of that without it being a super magnum butt kicker? As I said when I find AA's on sale I shoot those at 1300 fps and while they give more punch then the others it is not noticable and I would actually prefer shooting 1 1/8 loads anyway. Thanks for any pros, cons or anything else you care to throw at me! Doug

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

IMHO shooting 1300-1400 fps at clay birds is a waste of powder. I much prefer 1 oz loads at around 1100-1150 fps for clay birds. As far as finding a load that shoot fast and is not a butt kicker....good luck LOL! Recoil is dependant on weight of projectile and velocity. Shooting 1 1/8 oz loads in excess of 1400 fps is gonna be brutal. If you want balls to the wall loads I have had some pretty impressive velocities using Hodgdon Longshot in both my buckshot loads and slug/round ball loads. They are brutal to shoot though, especially out of my featherweight.

[BigJimP]

A couple of thoughts - but yes, you can find recipes for faster loads up to at least 1400 fps / mostly using 1 oz of shot.

Recoil is cumulative / and tiring - regardless of how big you are ( I'm 6'5" and 280 lbs ) but it will wear anyone down over a 4 day event where you might easily shoot 1,000 shells or 40 boxes.... and do the math / on a target 40 yards away or 120 feet / how much faster does a shot pattern traveling 1400 fps reach the target / vs 1200 fps .... Remember the idea of a shotgun is to put a 30" pattern, on the target, at the kill range - so you change your choke accordingly. If you miss the center of the pattern a couple inches left / or a couple inches right ... it doesn't matter. In fact worrying about it - may cause you to lose focus on what's really important - feeling the lead, pulling the trigger and follow thru...

Staying sharp on birds ....is more about confidence and fundamentals - of smooth swing, feel the lead and follow thru than the shell you shoot.

For any of the clay target games - you cannot shoot a shell with shot size over 7 1/2's ....and while most won't limit your velocity - anything over 1300 fps ( like a Remington Nitro, 1 1/8 oz of shot ) is way too much in my opinion. The last I knew, many of the better shooters in the country shoot 1 oz loads / from 1200 - 1225 fps ....and they shoot a lot of shells of 1oz of 8's ...and while there are always exceptions / faster may cause more holes in the pattern, etc if you read about reloading, shot patterns, etc.

I would recommend you reload 1 oz of shot / around 1200 fps ...and you'll be plenty sharp when duck season rolls around. Shoot some sporting clays, some Skeet and some Trap ....and work on keeping your shoulders level, solid gun mount, good follow thru ( good mechanics ) vs hotter shells / you'll save some money and be a better wing shooter down the road.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Nice post Jim!

[iudoug]

I totally agree with everything you say BUT as the speed in the shells has gotten faster in steel it seems it has thrown my timing off worse than ever this year. This was the first year I shot 1450 fps duck loads. I will not bore you guys with the #'s of ducks I shoot or all of the skeet and sporting clays I have shot over the years ( especially since on the web we can be anything or as good as we want ) but I have just really struggled getting back to clays. Heck I might just be getting too dang old and fat!!! I know lots of guys who do go the way you are talking and actually back everything off to 1200 and 1 oz but most of those guys only shoot clays. I am just looking for the miracle cure/ excuse to get me on track. Thanks guys, Doug

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

You probably already know this but if you reload steel it requires different data than lead. Just FYI and good luck!

[zippy13]

Remember energy (and recoil) increases with the square of the velocity -- an increase form an 1150 fps target load to a 1450 fps quacker smacker represnets an 18% increase in velocity, but a 37% increase in recoil energy!!!

Recoil issues aside, for my sport of choice, Skeet, the lower velocity loads hit the targets much harder than the faster ones. The 1150 fps loads maintain pattern density better. Unfortunately a pattern board is only a two dimensional view of a three dimensional shot string, so density isn't readily apparent. As my learned friend, BigJim, suggested: The higher the velocity, the longer the shot string and the more holes in the pattern. There's a reason target shooters use the load velocities they do -- their cumulative experience tells them which loads produce the highest scores at various target distances. If you want to give away targets and get pounded in the process, be my guest and use your hi-vel loads; otherwise, the lowest velocity loads appropriate to the target distance will generally give the best results (highest scores).

[snuffy]

Everybody here is missing iudoug's reasoning. He wants to practice with the same velocity loads that he hunts with! Makes perfect sense to me! That way, when he steps off the target range and into the duck boat, he will have the same leads.

iudoug, there's a couple 7/8 ounce steel loads, and #7 steel shot that can be loaded. In fact I did just that a couple of years ago. Now to try to remember where I found the load info and what I used for wads/powder. Those loads clocked at 1500 fps! They were deadly at sporting clays AND the recoil was NOT a factor. A shooting buddy also loaded some. we shot together that day, and we got some good scores.

Let me do some digging, to find the data and I maybe even still have some of the shells.

[oneounceload]

IIRC, there is an International Bunker load that runs 3/4 oz at 1450 fps. Most FITASC 1oz loads tend to run just a little slower (1350-1400)

Fiocchi even has fast steel target loads:

http://www.fiocchiusa.com/cat_target.html

[iudoug]

I guess I needed you to express my thoughts as I am not smart enough!!! Hope you can find the recipe for me....if not just send me 4 or 5 hunded of those shells to try!! Thanks guys Doug

[BigJimP]

Most clay target clubs - for Skeet, Trap or Sporting Clays - will not let you shoot any Steel shot on their property !

I understood the OP's desire to practice with the same velocity loads he hunts with ...its just the wisdom of the idea, that I take exception to / so I was trying to give him some thoughts that might change his focus on effective practice and how to improve his wing shooting.

From a practical matter - practicing with the same velocity loads that you hunt with, in my opinion, just won't pay many dividends / and the price he will pay - in terms of recoil - is significant / and it might make him a worse wing shot rather than better.

To the OP - you should certainly do whatever you want in terms of practice / that will be allowed at the clubs you want to shoot at. But if shooting higher payloads, with higher velocities - would make any of us better shooters / or increase our scores --- all of us would do it ! But it just doesn't work that way in my experience of 40+ yrs of wing shooting and clay target shooting. But go out and test it ...buy a case of Remington, Nitro's, 1 1/8oz of shot, 7 1/2's, at 1300 fps ....and shoot them at Skeet and Sporting. Then buy a case of 1oz, of 8's, at 1200 fps ....and shoot those ...and compare your scores ( and how you feel, at the end of a day, say shooting 5 boxes ). If you shoot a fixed breech gun ( O/U or pump gun ) the recoil difference is significant / but its even noticeable in a semi-auto as well. Its not just recoil fatigue / its also mental fatigue ....so keep a journal on your day - and see what you like best.

Its a free country / everybody should shoot the shells they like the best - that they feel gives them the best chance to score highly ...providing they are legal for the club they are shooting at. One of my buddies does shoot a lot of Rem Nitro's for sporting clays ...but he shoots a 9lb O/U with a gra-coil system in it as well to absorb some of the punishment.

[snuffy]

From a practical matter - practicing with the same velocity loads that you hunt with, in my opinion, just won't pay many dividends / and the price he will pay - in terms of recoil - is significant / and it might make him a worse wing shot rather than better.

Jim, you're barking up the wrong tree. The reason I did it that year was precisely the same reason Doug wants to do it. I was missing ducks & geese for the first couple days of the waterfowl season, until I realized I was leading them too much!

The loads I mentioned were seven eighths of an ounce! There wasn't any INCREASE in payload, in fact less than my standard 1 ounce shells. The faster speed did result in approximately the same recoil as a standard 1-1/8 ounce 3 dram load.

On another note, the 7/8 ounce of #7 steel actually has MORE shot in it as far as pellet count, than a 1 oz lead of the same size. Also, the steel patterns a LOT better than lead, because it just doesn't get deformed by the upset upon ignition of the powder, or the travel though the choke. Clays hit by them were just a puff of black smoke.

As for a gun club not allowing steel to be shot on their ranges, the only reason I could think of is they are re-claiming the shot. That would mess things up. A lot of the clubs here in WI. are being forced to ONLY shoot non-toxic shot on their ranges, or close down. Most of them are shooting over wetlands. I've never been asked what type of shot I was using.

Doug, still digging for the info!

[baltz526]

winchester makes a "superspeed" dove load. 7/8oz of 7 1/2 at 1500. At least they have in the past. I have used them for sporting clays as preseason practice. It did seem to help with the adjustment to high speed steel.

[zippy13]

snuffy,

Here ya go, from the Hodgdon Reloading Data Center:

12-ga 2 3/4" Federal Gold Medal Plastic Shell
Lead Shot 7/8 oz.
Titewad Powder 24.6 Gr.
CCI 209 Primer
WAA12L Wad
11,500 PSI
1500 ft/s

[BigJimP]

Snuffy, I think I understand your perspective ...and you might be right / I am certainly coming at it from a different perspective with my old worn out shoulders, etc.

If the OP wants to shoot shells at 1500 fps / and the gun club allows it - then he should do it / if for no other reason than he wants to. But depending on where the club is / in proximity to houses / there might be a noise issue. Some clubs in my area will not allow "hot loads" because of the noise / they have policies that will limit you to a 3 DR EQ shell, or something like that. Shooting Reminton Nitros at 1300 fps will raise some eyebrows at some clubs ...even though they are a common "Handicap Load" - but they are over a 3 Dr EQ rating for sure.

There might also be an issue from other shooters on his squad ...with the extra noise ...especially on a Trap squad - where shooters are shoulder to shoulder.

I'm not going to say I've memorized all the rules for the clay target games - but I believe Trap has a 1200 fps limit on their loads under their current rules. Skeet and Sporting Clays rules do not have a limit on velocity or Dr EQ, only on volume or ounces of shot, like 1 1/8oz in a 12ga to my knowledge.

I understand Steel weighs less than Lead - so you're right the pellet count on steel per ounce is higher than lead. I know some clubs are moving to "non toxic shot" ...and while I've experimented with it a little / I'm no expert in loading steel shot. The clubs in my area will not allow any Steel shot / because they do reclaim the shot ....but its really more that they don't want anyone shooting "field loads" of 7's, 6's, 4's etc .....with all the clay target games limiting shot size to no more than 7 1/2's.

Its certainly up to him .... I just can't shoot any quantity of shells at 1300 fps these days / let alone at 1500 fps even if they were only 7/8 oz ...

A quick look at the recoil formula / shooting an 8 lb 3 oz gun ( like a typical 30" barrel Over Under ..):

1 oz of shot @ 1200 fps (a common load ) = 16.31 Ft Lbs of recoil
1 1/8 oz of shot at 1300 fps ( Nitros) = 20.23 Ft Lbs ( call it Plus 25% )
1 1/8 oz at 1500 fps = 30.14 Ft lbs or about 85% more ...
7/8 oz at 1500 fps = 19.17 Ft lbs which is only about 20% more ...
but the OP wasn't worried about recoil / that's just my perspective ....

[snuffy]

Doug, my memory finally worked! That is amazing in and of itself.

The recipe was from the ballistic products BPI load sheet for alliant STEEL powder. The load we were using was loaded in the federal gold medal hull, federal 209A primer, 45.0 grains of Alliant steel powder, and BPI's CSD078 wad. Oh and of course 7/8 ounce of whatever size steel shot you'd want to use. We used #7.

There's other shell/wad combinations listed for 2-¾ loads, what do you have available to use?

There's also info on Alliants website;

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...id=10&gauge=12

[iudoug]

Glad the memory is alive and well!! I am going to try these and hopefully all goes well. Thanks to all replys guys......and Jim.....the sporting clay place I shoot at have no restrictions as it is really rural and you pull your own birds so no worries there .....thank goodness. Doug

[BigJimP]

Let us know how it all works out for you .....