The CAR Stance Better than the Weaver or Isosceles?r theIsocoles?

Hard Ball · January 21, 2001, 08:29 PM

I hear rumors about an new shooting stance, the CAR, is being taught in the Border Patrol Training Acadamey and by a few other law enforcement agencies. Supposedly it offers superior accuracy and weapon control. Has anyone seen it used and if so, is it really that good?

Matt VDW · January 22, 2001, 08:05 AM

The CAR? Does this involve using a motor vehicle for support?

Seriously, though, if someone has come up with a new and improved stance, I'd like to see it.

Coronach · January 22, 2001, 11:22 AM

I think its used for drive-bys...

Mike

Hard Ball · January 22, 2001, 12:31 PM

I see that I used an acronym without defining it. Sorry about that! CAR stands for Center Axis Relock system. My information is limited to what I heard from a fellow shooter who saw a recently.
It is a two handed shooting technique stance developed by an Englishman named Castle. It is intended to correct the inherent flaws he sees in tboth he Weaver and the isosoles stances. The pistol is gripped in the shooter's strong hand and brought to the center of the body. The pistol is brought to the center of the upper body and the shooting hand rotated inward and is brought closer to the shooters face to what is called the "natural focal point" of the shooter's eyes. The free hand grips the hand holding the pistol/ The supporting arm is sharply bent with the forearm nearly vertical.
Because of the position of the pistol most shooters use the left eye to aim concentrating on the front sight.
Our conversation was not at the range so I have not seen it done or tried it out. Stil. it sounds wonderful. so if it ever quits raining I wil try it out the next tome I go shooting.

Dave R · January 22, 2001, 12:38 PM

Always willing to try something new. I'm not sure I got the picture right from your description. If you can get an illustration or more info, please post. Sounds interesting.

cocojo · January 22, 2001, 12:41 PM

The new Car system is a good one just received info on this shooting system. Plan on attending his class or bring him up to NH. I tryed it out last week and shot about four hundred rounds, not quite as accurate yet, but it definitly is superior. When I went back to my old ways it felt odd and old fasion and slower. I must say I like this system. He is only teach LE's so I hear at this time. Has an impressive background in England.

RazorsEdge · January 22, 2001, 12:46 PM

Quite frankly, sounds like a load of crap.

Under pressure, the only "stance" is to stay balanced. To help natural ability, take martial arts or dancing lessons.

gun arm goes out and up till taut like ball on string. Keep gun indexed where body is facing, and always face threat.

Use support hand if possible, don't sweat it if not. NEVER PUT ANYTHING IN YOUR DRILL THAT IS NOT VERY CLOSE TO NATURAL BODY REACTIONS!

Weaver has its uses, but it is not a "pure" pistol technique. It uses isometric tension to utilize weapon as a pistol/carbine.

ctdonath · January 22, 2001, 01:36 PM

The pistol is gripped in the shooter's strong hand and brought to the center of the body. The pistol is brought to the center of the upper body and the shooting hand rotated inward and is brought closer to the shooters face to what is called the "natural focal point" of the shooter's eyes.

So...the shooter shoots himself between the eyes? Doesn't sound healthy.

You might want to re-word the description, or provide a picture.

Payette Jack · January 22, 2001, 02:50 PM

I've actually been using something of a "CAR"-Weaver hybrid for years. The biggest advantage is finding your own natural focal point and getting the support hand closer to the body. I don't know about rotating the hand inward, although in trying it here in my living room it feels pretty natural.

I'll give it a try next time at the range.

jtduncan · January 22, 2001, 04:10 PM

Sounds like a heavily modified Weaver. But I question whether a gun at center is a good idea. It blocks view of the target. I'll stick to Weaver that way I can go toe to toe too!

RazorsEdge · January 22, 2001, 04:27 PM

Hold on, guys!

"The shooting hand is rotated inward"???

Is this holding it sideways like the boys 'n the hood? (Or every limpdick Hollywood director?)

No, seriously, I have a LOT OF PROBLEMS with anybody who has years of a certain style training trying to convert to something radical. Even after two years of the new style,
if the SHTF, you CAN go vaporlock! Think about it!

Even if this gives better long distance accuracy, so what? Close, personal, and FAST is the essence of pistol combat.

I've been doing this stuff for thirty years and weird stuff comes and go, but the BASICS ABIDE.

RH · January 22, 2001, 04:40 PM

Sorry, you lost me with "developed by an Englishman ".

bwwaaahaaahaaaa

Daniel Watters · January 22, 2001, 05:01 PM

Any bets whether the creator of the stance is near-sighted and cross-dominant? However, a very close to the face Weaver was used by Ross Seyfried to win his World IPSC title (1980?). Seyfried was the last person to win the title with a non-comped, non-scoped service pistol, predating the creation of IPSC Standard Division.

RazorsEdge · January 22, 2001, 05:11 PM

So, most of these guys are using a different eye to shoot CAR than what they plan on using for shotgun/rifle?

Hmmm.

Well, at least that might help somebody's evaluation on inclusiveness and diversity. So it must be a good thing.

ViKing · January 22, 2001, 06:23 PM

1) Create new stance.

2) Using System Analysis, create complete new "method" based on #1 above.

3) Buy lunch for brass in LE and Govt, make pitch for method. Develop potential client list. Invite to private range near Vegas for 3 day demo and seminar. Includes food and lodging at the Luxor, shuttle service to and from the range.

4) Sell contracts for "training" to LE and Govt.

5) Take bored gun writers to lunch, offer free training. Positive columns appear like magic in gun rags. Prepared articles titled "45 Colt or 45ACP, which one to sh%!can" and "32 magnum, enough gun for grandma" will have to wait till the June or July issue.

6) Sell "training" classes, books, and videos using above method to the general public. "As taught to the ___ State Police and XXXX agents".

7) Method is now an accepted standard. Expand training facilities, license satellite offices. Sell more training.

riverdog · January 22, 2001, 06:46 PM

I'm only using a Weaver ... I feel so under-schooled because of my lack of training in the CAR stance. My self-esteem is at a new low. Is there a video I can buy?

No way will I start shooting left eye dominant or hold the pistol so my nose acts as a recoil check. After what the Brits have gone thru ... ohh, he's only teaching LE (in England?). Yeah, this is starting to make sense now.

Pass.

[Edited by riverdog on 01-22-2001 at 08:13 PM]

Ironbarr · January 22, 2001, 06:49 PM

RazorsEdge... I thought the same thing. (Always wondered where all the brass went in those horizontal attitudes.)

ViKing... you forgot correspondance courses @ $350 a pop.

I'll wait until y'all shed some feedback, okay?

-Andy

dvc · January 22, 2001, 07:10 PM

This sounds like a perversion of a 'rock and lock' mouse gun stance melded with Jim Cirillo's Geometric Nose point.

While Cirillo's technique has merit, this 'CAR' stance sounds like a load of pretentious horse exhaust.

DAKODAKID · January 22, 2001, 09:32 PM

Oh yeah, the Englishman named Castle, I think
I have heard of him,
now correct me If I am wrong
but...
wasn't he the bloke
who taught the Bobbies who were unarmed to yell..
"Stop thief or I'll yell stop again"!!!!
Sounds like the same guy....

justice4all · January 22, 2001, 10:02 PM

No thanks. I don't know what kind of stance I use, but it feels natural, and I can hit what I need to. If TSHTF. who has time to do anything but what comes natural? Plus, left eye? What?

Brasso · January 22, 2001, 11:03 PM

Here's a bit of advice... Shoot the way you feel comfortable and quit worrying about it.

glockcop · January 23, 2001, 12:12 AM

you people sure have alot of negative opinions before you even know what the man is talking about. if anyone gets police marksman there is a brief article about CAR in the most recent issue. the FBI and US Border Patrol is teaching cadets this method along with many other departments across the country. i will be attending the class put on by the Houston SWAT next month. i`m not knocking anyones style but unless you have actually tried something then you have no right to criticize. what works for you may not work for me and vice versa.

glockcop

blades67 · January 23, 2001, 02:20 AM

This is not a "new" system, I have been using a stance much as described for more than eight years. I am left hand / right eye dominant and using a modified Weaver stance with my pistol canted almost 45 degrees to starboard. I guess I just failed to market my stance before somebody else did.

WESHOOT2 · January 23, 2001, 06:41 AM

....new stance......increased recoil control.......blah blah blah.......

And in a real SHTF I will have time only to draw weak-hand and shoot from a speed-rock.

Whatever...

RazorsEdge · January 23, 2001, 10:26 AM

Dear Mr. Glockcop,

I certainly must plead guilty to adopting a note of sarcasm that I normally try hard to avoid in posting. And, yes, old farts do resist the new, and are unlikely to see value in the new.

That said, I must repeat that A) I have seen similiar styles come and go at least twice, and B)it is incredibly dangerous to monkey around with a "style of the week". It can cause fatal confusion if the SHTF.

Human physiology hasn't changed in the 140 plus years since cartridge handguns came into use. If this stuff worked, we would probably already be doing it.

This technique probably does have advantages in specific limited conditions, but pistolcraft must work in all conditions.

Take a routine traffic stop gone bad. You probably should drop your clipboard or flashlight, but you for damn sure don't have time to think about it and so you probably clench it tightly as you try to draw and shoot one handed as you run backwards at angle to get into the rear dead zone of a '83 Chevy. Or, you are trying to get some rounds off as you lunge for cover or as you got one foot up on the down staircase.

In these circumstances, the last thing in the world you need is the belief that you need to get into some bureaucratic wetdream of the "correct" stance.

January 22, 2001, 02:50 PM	#9
Payette Jack Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2000 Posts: 336	I get it I've actually been using something of a "CAR"-Weaver hybrid for years. The biggest advantage is finding your own natural focal point and getting the support hand closer to the body. I don't know about rotating the hand inward, although in trying it here in my living room it feels pretty natural. I'll give it a try next time at the range.

January 22, 2001, 04:10 PM	#10
jtduncan Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 1999 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA Posts: 1,686	Sounds like a heavily modified Weaver. But I question whether a gun at center is a good idea. It blocks view of the target. I'll stick to Weaver that way I can go toe to toe too! __________________ The Seattle SharpShooter Reloaded .223 Rem, 9mm, 40SW, 357 SIG, 10mm, 44 Mag, 45 ACP Today?

January 22, 2001, 06:46 PM	#16
riverdog Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2000 Posts: 824	Oh No!!! I'm only using a Weaver ... I feel so under-schooled because of my lack of training in the CAR stance. My self-esteem is at a new low. Is there a video I can buy? No way will I start shooting left eye dominant or hold the pistol so my nose acts as a recoil check. After what the Brits have gone thru ... ohh, he's only teaching LE (in England?). Yeah, this is starting to make sense now. Pass. [Edited by riverdog on 01-22-2001 at 08:13 PM]

January 22, 2001, 06:49 PM	#17
Ironbarr Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2000 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,188	Hmmm... RazorsEdge... I thought the same thing. (Always wondered where all the brass went in those horizontal attitudes.) ViKing... you forgot correspondance courses @ $350 a pop. I'll wait until y'all shed some feedback, okay? -Andy

January 23, 2001, 12:12 AM	#22
glockcop Junior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Posts: 8	CAR you people sure have alot of negative opinions before you even know what the man is talking about. if anyone gets police marksman there is a brief article about CAR in the most recent issue. the FBI and US Border Patrol is teaching cadets this method along with many other departments across the country. i will be attending the class put on by the Houston SWAT next month. i`m not knocking anyones style but unless you have actually tried something then you have no right to criticize. what works for you may not work for me and vice versa. glockcop

January 21, 2001, 08:29 PM	#1
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	I hear rumors about an new shooting stance, the CAR, is being taught in the Border Patrol Training Acadamey and by a few other law enforcement agencies. Supposedly it offers superior accuracy and weapon control. Has anyone seen it used and if so, is it really that good?

January 22, 2001, 08:05 AM	#2
Matt VDW Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 1999 Posts: 1,315	The CAR? Does this involve using a motor vehicle for support? Seriously, though, if someone has come up with a new and improved stance, I'd like to see it.

January 22, 2001, 11:22 AM	#3
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	I think its used for drive-bys... Mike

January 22, 2001, 12:31 PM	#4
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	I see that I used an acronym without defining it. Sorry about that! CAR stands for Center Axis Relock system. My information is limited to what I heard from a fellow shooter who saw a recently. It is a two handed shooting technique stance developed by an Englishman named Castle. It is intended to correct the inherent flaws he sees in tboth he Weaver and the isosoles stances. The pistol is gripped in the shooter's strong hand and brought to the center of the body. The pistol is brought to the center of the upper body and the shooting hand rotated inward and is brought closer to the shooters face to what is called the "natural focal point" of the shooter's eyes. The free hand grips the hand holding the pistol/ The supporting arm is sharply bent with the forearm nearly vertical. Because of the position of the pistol most shooters use the left eye to aim concentrating on the front sight. Our conversation was not at the range so I have not seen it done or tried it out. Stil. it sounds wonderful. so if it ever quits raining I wil try it out the next tome I go shooting.

January 22, 2001, 12:38 PM	#5
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 6,073	Always willing to try something new. I'm not sure I got the picture right from your description. If you can get an illustration or more info, please post. Sounds interesting.

January 22, 2001, 12:41 PM	#6
cocojo Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2000 Posts: 500	The new Car system is a good one just received info on this shooting system. Plan on attending his class or bring him up to NH. I tryed it out last week and shot about four hundred rounds, not quite as accurate yet, but it definitly is superior. When I went back to my old ways it felt odd and old fasion and slower. I must say I like this system. He is only teach LE's so I hear at this time. Has an impressive background in England.

January 22, 2001, 12:46 PM	#7
RazorsEdge Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2001 Location: Dallas Posts: 207	Quite frankly, sounds like a load of crap. Under pressure, the only "stance" is to stay balanced. To help natural ability, take martial arts or dancing lessons. gun arm goes out and up till taut like ball on string. Keep gun indexed where body is facing, and always face threat. Use support hand if possible, don't sweat it if not. NEVER PUT ANYTHING IN YOUR DRILL THAT IS NOT VERY CLOSE TO NATURAL BODY REACTIONS! Weaver has its uses, but it is not a "pure" pistol technique. It uses isometric tension to utilize weapon as a pistol/carbine.

January 22, 2001, 01:36 PM	#8
ctdonath Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 1999 Posts: 1,904	The pistol is gripped in the shooter's strong hand and brought to the center of the body. The pistol is brought to the center of the upper body and the shooting hand rotated inward and is brought closer to the shooters face to what is called the "natural focal point" of the shooter's eyes. So...the shooter shoots himself between the eyes? Doesn't sound healthy. You might want to re-word the description, or provide a picture.

January 22, 2001, 04:27 PM	#11
RazorsEdge Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2001 Location: Dallas Posts: 207	Hold on, guys! "The shooting hand is rotated inward"??? Is this holding it sideways like the boys 'n the hood? (Or every limpdick Hollywood director?) No, seriously, I have a LOT OF PROBLEMS with anybody who has years of a certain style training trying to convert to something radical. Even after two years of the new style, if the SHTF, you CAN go vaporlock! Think about it! Even if this gives better long distance accuracy, so what? Close, personal, and FAST is the essence of pistol combat. I've been doing this stuff for thirty years and weird stuff comes and go, but the BASICS ABIDE.

January 22, 2001, 04:40 PM	#12
RH Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 1999 Posts: 532	Sorry, you lost me with "developed by an Englishman ". bwwaaahaaahaaaa

January 22, 2001, 05:01 PM	#13
Daniel Watters Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 1999 Location: USA Posts: 644	Any bets whether the creator of the stance is near-sighted and cross-dominant? However, a very close to the face Weaver was used by Ross Seyfried to win his World IPSC title (1980?). Seyfried was the last person to win the title with a non-comped, non-scoped service pistol, predating the creation of IPSC Standard Division.

January 22, 2001, 05:11 PM	#14
RazorsEdge Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2001 Location: Dallas Posts: 207	So, most of these guys are using a different eye to shoot CAR than what they plan on using for shotgun/rifle? Hmmm. Well, at least that might help somebody's evaluation on inclusiveness and diversity. So it must be a good thing.

January 22, 2001, 06:23 PM	#15
ViKing Member Join Date: December 24, 2000 Posts: 22	1) Create new stance. 2) Using System Analysis, create complete new "method" based on #1 above. 3) Buy lunch for brass in LE and Govt, make pitch for method. Develop potential client list. Invite to private range near Vegas for 3 day demo and seminar. Includes food and lodging at the Luxor, shuttle service to and from the range. 4) Sell contracts for "training" to LE and Govt. 5) Take bored gun writers to lunch, offer free training. Positive columns appear like magic in gun rags. Prepared articles titled "45 Colt or 45ACP, which one to sh%!can" and "32 magnum, enough gun for grandma" will have to wait till the June or July issue. 6) Sell "training" classes, books, and videos using above method to the general public. "As taught to the ___ State Police and XXXX agents". 7) Method is now an accepted standard. Expand training facilities, license satellite offices. Sell more training.

January 22, 2001, 07:10 PM	#18
dvc Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 1999 Posts: 387	This sounds like a perversion of a 'rock and lock' mouse gun stance melded with Jim Cirillo's Geometric Nose point. While Cirillo's technique has merit, this 'CAR' stance sounds like a load of pretentious horse exhaust.

January 22, 2001, 09:32 PM	#19
DAKODAKID Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2000 Posts: 436	Oh yeah, the Englishman named Castle, I think I have heard of him, now correct me If I am wrong but... wasn't he the bloke who taught the Bobbies who were unarmed to yell.. "Stop thief or I'll yell stop again"!!!! Sounds like the same guy....

January 22, 2001, 10:02 PM	#20
justice4all Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2000 Location: Grand Junction, CO Posts: 327	No thanks. I don't know what kind of stance I use, but it feels natural, and I can hit what I need to. If TSHTF. who has time to do anything but what comes natural? Plus, left eye? What?

January 22, 2001, 11:03 PM	#21
Brasso Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 1999 Location: AL Posts: 472	Here's a bit of advice... Shoot the way you feel comfortable and quit worrying about it.

January 23, 2001, 02:20 AM	#23
blades67 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 1999 Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA Posts: 6,014	This is not a "new" system, I have been using a stance much as described for more than eight years. I am left hand / right eye dominant and using a modified Weaver stance with my pistol canted almost 45 degrees to starboard. I guess I just failed to market my stance before somebody else did. __________________ Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat! I hunt, therefore I am.

January 23, 2001, 06:41 AM	#24
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	....new stance......increased recoil control.......blah blah blah....... And in a real SHTF I will have time only to draw weak-hand and shoot from a speed-rock. Whatever... __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

January 23, 2001, 10:26 AM	#25
RazorsEdge Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2001 Location: Dallas Posts: 207	Dear Mr. Glockcop, I certainly must plead guilty to adopting a note of sarcasm that I normally try hard to avoid in posting. And, yes, old farts do resist the new, and are unlikely to see value in the new. That said, I must repeat that A) I have seen similiar styles come and go at least twice, and B)it is incredibly dangerous to monkey around with a "style of the week". It can cause fatal confusion if the SHTF. Human physiology hasn't changed in the 140 plus years since cartridge handguns came into use. If this stuff worked, we would probably already be doing it. This technique probably does have advantages in specific limited conditions, but pistolcraft must work in all conditions. Take a routine traffic stop gone bad. You probably should drop your clipboard or flashlight, but you for damn sure don't have time to think about it and so you probably clench it tightly as you try to draw and shoot one handed as you run backwards at angle to get into the rear dead zone of a '83 Chevy. Or, you are trying to get some rounds off as you lunge for cover or as you got one foot up on the down staircase. In these circumstances, the last thing in the world you need is the belief that you need to get into some bureaucratic wetdream of the "correct" stance.