Practicing for concealed carry, without the gun

[nbk2000]

I've read many messages on this board where people have stated that, despite it being illegal in their state, that they carry concealed.

The state I live in is (for all intents and purposes) one of these states.

While I have no need or desire to carry concealed, that doesn't mean that I may not have need of it in the future.

So, what I've been thinking of is starting "practice" carry of a psuedo-gun.

The pseudo-gun is a legal object of an approximate size, weight, and shape as a real gun, that is carried in anticipation of carrying concealed.

The psuedo-gun is in itself perfectly harmless and impossible to mistake for a real gun, but would be of a nature where you'd be highly motivated to conceal it's presence and avoid exposing it to the gun fearing public.

What I propose is a wood block cut into the size and shape of your intended concealed carry weapon. It would be weighted to the approximate weight and balance of the real gun with lead glued into appropriately drilled holes. Steel nails are added for making it detectable by metal detectors.

This in itself wouldn't really be embarrassing to be seen with, so to add the needed deterrent to detection, I think gluing pornographic pictures to completely cover the psuedo-gun and covering with a clear lacquer to protect the pictures from wear, would add the needed incentive to avoid exposing the "gun".

You would then proceed to carry the "gun" in your holster as you would a real gun on a daily basis.

Since it's assumed you haven't been carrying concealed on a daily basis for years already, this allows you to get your mistakes out of the way before you risk arrest for carrying the real deal.

I'm assuming that anyone who sees the porn covered psuedo-gun would likely mention it to either you, or "The Authorities" (whoever that may be) would confront you, or bystanders would reveal by their behavior towards you that they've seen it.

Once you're able to go months without anyone detecting your "gun", you'd then be able to carry your real gun with a high degree of confidence in your ability to keep it covered.

Obviously, you could subsitute other appropriate objects, but there must be both incentive to avoid detection, and no legal repercussions when you are (eventually) discovered.

This idea is based on the principle of "Perfect Practice Makes Perfect".

If the police ask you why you're carrying it, I'd suggest having a "plausible deniability" story ready.

Perhaps you could say it's a social studies thesis, or perhaps a dare from a friend in a state that allows CCW. I leave the details to you.

BTW, here's a list of possible "tells"j that you'd want to avoid while practicing for future CCW. Substitute "Subject" for "RKBA Practitioner".

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

• Coat is completely unzipped in cold weather.
  
• As a subject walks, only one of his arms swings.
  
• A subject's shirt is buttoned only at the top, the tail hanging loose over his waistband.
  
• When a subject sees you, he looks down quickly at about where his appendix would be, then avoids any eye contact with you.
  
  Specifically, look for:
  
• A jacket or shirt that doesn't hang naturally, particularly an uneven jacket hemline that may be pulled down by the weight of a gun.
  
• When an armed subject turns, the side with a heavy object will swing. A subject who realizes this may hold onto the hem near where the gun is to keep it steady.
  
• A collar that is pulling tight at the back of the neck or is lower on one side. Again, this can be caused by the hanging weight of a pocketed gun.
  
• A mode of dress not consistent with the weather, like a heavy down coat or vest on a hot day or a coat that is unzipped in cold weather (possibly to provide faster access to a gun).
  
• A shirt that is buttoned only at the top, with the tail out.
  
• Dress slacks with a shirt tail out. Normally with dress pants the tail is tucked in.
  
• A shirt that is only partly tucked in. Sometimes a shirt is tucked in around a handgun to form a makeshift holster.
  
• Unnatural bulges under the clothes, especially bulky pockets. When a subject has his or her hand in a pocket with a gun, the pocket will stick out even more than it would from a hand alone.
  
• A jacket that is removed as you drive by. The subject may be discarding the gun temporarily. Particularly watch how the clothing is removed. "Carefully sliding it down all the way off" may indicate that a subject is trying to keep a gun from "flopping around."
  
  People who carry guns often exhibit certain other BODY LANGUAGE CUES, These include:
  
• Touching or pressing the area where the gun is concealed with an elbow, arm or hand.
  
• Holding a pocket or clothing where the gun is from the outside.
  
• Pulling up pants or adjusting other clothing repeatedly. This may be necessary because the weight of a gun is pulling the clothing down.
  
• Dragging a foot slightly when walking. If a gun is being carried unholstered in the waistband, the subject may "favor" that side so as not to jostle the gun more than necessary. This can also indicate a gun stuffed into a boot.
  
• Moving only one arm when walking. The arm that stays in place may be steadying a gun or trying to hide a tattletale bulge.
  
• Stiffly bowing the arm away from the body (to avoid banging into the gun while walking).

Take note: Many police officers working in plainclothes or out in public in casual dress off duty exhibit these same behaviors when armed.

Keep in mind that you could be giving away YOUR concealed firearm with these movements if they are read by an observant offender.

[vesuvius]

Dude, you have way too much time on your hands. I suggest you do not carry a gun at all or any form of one or any form of a form of one to practise. Just get a concealed carry license and be done with it. Oh, and get some training. That'll do you more good. In fact, get training at a reputable school in lieu of your "practicing".

Cheers!

[striderteen]

No, that's a GREAT idea!

[nbk2000]

I don't carry a gun anyways. I've lived my life just fine without doing so. I do own a rifle, but I feel no compelling need to strap on a pistol as a daily ritual.

I've been present at the before and after (never the during) of several gunfights, and have seen the blood and heard the screams. I'm fortunate enough to have been blessed with a good sense of timing and removed myself from the scene during the "before" phase of these incidents.

I've put myself in harms way on several occasions, and on those occasions I was armed. To me, the gun was a mission specific tool, nothing more.

I also remember that a gun does not make one invincible. Thus my preference to show the better part of discretion and leave, rather than stay and fight.

Considering how I've managed to survive to middle age without using a gun in anger, I'm quite confidant in my ability to do so in the future.

BUT...this doesn't mean that I'm going to deny myself the means of safely carrying and concealing a pistol if I feel the need to do so.

To quote myself:

...despite it being illegal in their state, that they carry concealed.

The state I live in is (for all intents and purposes) one of these states.

Thus, the option of a CCW license is a non-option.

And to just stick a gun in my pocket (illegally) would be foolishness.

Would you go to a war-zone without having first practiced your camouflage skills? If you do, you die.

While not that extreme, it IS similar in that you must avoid detection (of your gun) by the enemy (criminals and, unfortunately, the cops too).

I would much rather try explaining to a cop why I have a weighted wood object with nudie pics glued to it in my possession, than an illegally concealed Glock 30 with a magazine of Glasers.

One will get me funny looks and possibly a lecture.

The other will get me jail or prison, plus loss of my privilege to even OWN a firearm, let alone carry one.

So, vesuvius, I'm glad for you that you live somewhere where you can get a CCW license. My topic is directed at those who don't.

As for training...been there, done that. It's not the use of the weapon that I need practice in, but the concealing of it. I never had to do that in my previous experiences.

Striderteen, what's a great idea? The psuedo-gun? Or vesuvius's suggestion? Clarification would be appreciated.

I'm sure this idea probably seems silly to some (or most) people here. But quite frankly, I don't care what you think. I'm sharing what I know and hopefully providing some originality to break people out of the rut of conventional thinking that we all tend to slip into.

Where would we be without the occasional "from left field" idea to shake things up, eh?

<RANT>
And I'm sure if someone here feels that they can't make their own point clear, they'll just simply sign up as a new member and post a couple of "Ooh, ooh! You're absolutely right! We should all bow to you!" kind of posts and then say "Hmm... I suspect something" to cast dispersions against me.

I haven't forgotten what one of you did in an earlier topic of mine, and I feel nothing but contempt for you and all other pathetic cowards of your type.
</RANT>

[Double Naught Spy]

The fact that you claim you don't need practice says a lot.

Since you apparently have all the training you need to use a gun, I am surprised that you don't have the concealed carry gig down yet. Proper gun training is not just about being about to shoot a gun, but about all the decisions leading up to the decision to bring a gun to use in a conflict, and then how to produce that gun from concealment in a safe and efficient manner to handle the situation. No insult intended, but if your training has not involved developing those skills, then your training has been inadequate. I have seen folks in several defensive handgun classes that carry concealed and show up at the range or class and practice all day long with an open, exposed holster. They get ZERO practice in producing the gun from concealment and producing a gun from concealment is one part of the draw process that can drastically impact your ability to bring the gun into the conflict in a negative manner if things don't go right during the draw.

And no insult meant here, but of the people I have met that claim that they don't need practice are the people that scare me the most when they do show up at gun ranges because many of them have horrible gun handling skills, horrible marksmanship, and/or a horrible understanding of how their weapon works. These are folks that are just as dangerous in terms of safety as neophytes who haven't handled a gun before. Shooting a gun is not like riding a bicycle such that once you learn how, the skills remain with you forever. They don't. They deteriorate fairly quickly and while you may know what to do, you probably won't be able to do it nearly as well than if you had practiced. Over confidence in one's abilities is something that gets a lot of people killed.

I think the idea of carrying a practice gun is a little hokey. It makes sense from the standpoint of doing the dry run to see how things will work. The hokey part comes if you get discovered or if you are printing, don't know it, and someone calls the cops and then you get to do a lot of explaining on how you are practicing to carry a gun, that is, practicing to do something illegal in your state.

If you do get a practice gun, spend the $ and get something like an ASP red gun or one that is NOT a color really resembling actual firearms. I think the colors I have seen are red, yellow, and blue. Yellow might be a great color. You want something that is the actual size and shape of the gun you carry, not one that necessarily looks like a gun. Don't use wood because wood can end up looking too much like a real gun with wood grips.

[Oleg Volk]

Having lived in an occupied territory, I think that the idea has merit. I just carried at home to get used to the practice, but a pseudo-gun is good to get used to handling the heavy holster, to get used to being around cops and so on.

[ajaxinacan]

In my state, concealment means concealment from "the casual disinterested observer".

That means that if a person is looking for the signs you suggest, they are not a "casual disinterested observer", and if they make you as carrying, you have not broken the law.

That's the way I read it, anyway.

I would not practice carrying concealed. More trouble than it is worth. If you choose to carry someday, you'll learn the ins and outs pretty quickly.

[Zundfolge]

Thank God for cellular phones and pagers

I live in a non CCW state and occasionally carry. A couple of weekends ago I was at WalMart when this woman backed into me. Her elbow squarely hit the grip of my Steyr. She said "Oh! Excuse me. I hope I didn't just break your cell phone." Thinking quickly I said "I'm sure its fine, its been through much worse and if its broken, its a company phone and they'll replace it without question." (thankfully she didn't want me to check that it was ok right then and there).

Since then I've started looking at people, and I see lots of people with bulges under their jackets where a gun might be and noticed people tugging at their clothes and showing many of the tell-tale signs of CCW described above, but I'm sure most of those are phones.

The advent of the cell phone (and the pager) have surely made CCW a little easier.

[jwise]

NBK2000,

Your idea is simply an extension of what nearly everyone who carries concealed did when they started out.

Most started carrying around the house to see how things fit (safe if detected, simulated real conditions.)

Some have carried pellet pistols or cap guns that are the same weight/size. A friend of mine did this once or twice just to see what it was like (not having a CCW.) It was more of an experiment, but it worked.

However, you took the basic idea of practice carry methods, and made the goal "perfection" instead of just "good enough." The reason is that your goal was to get to where you were confident enough to carry behind enemy lines, in occupied territory, in socialist states w/ draconian gun-laws that don't allow persons as yourself to EVER legally carry. Guess what, that was my home state of Texas before 1995.

If I were to have been caught carrying a pistol in 1994, I very well could have landed myself in some BIG trouble. Carrying in those conditions is MUCH different than carrying now, where I don't have to worry about people "catching" me. I'm legal now, and it feels GREAT!

For those who have the ability to carry legally, don't worry too much about a lot of practice carrying concealed. Spend more time practicing drawing and shooting. HOWEVER, to those who wish to practice civil disobedience, following NBK2000's advice would be a very smart thing.

I feel sad for those who live in states which do not value your rights or your lives. But just because your government doesn't value your life, doesn't mean you have to roll over like a sheep in the presence of wolves. You can still be a sheep dog, but you don't just have to fool the wolves, but you must fool the other sheep and the shepherd.

[Rocko357]

Just curious, what kind of "pseudo ammo" do you use in your "pseudo gun" ? And, what kind of "pseudo stopping power" does it have on "pseudo bad guys"?

Hey, give me a "pseudo break" will ya, i'm just trying to get some "pseudo info" !


later

[Country Boy]

Good idea, but perhaps a little over the top. (Put porn on it??) There are places (brownells.com) that sell polyurethane training guns that are designed to look like actual guns. They are $48, and they may not have the precise weight of an actual firearm, but they would fit properly into a quality holster. And it looks more like a gun that a piece of wood covered in dirty pictures.

http://www.brownells.com/images/products/333100092.jpg

[nbk2000]

I took vesuvius's post to mean getting the basic training of how to safely handle a firearm. That I've already been through and am very familiar and practiced in.

I would certainly get training in the drawing, presentation, and tactics of a pistol before I began carrying one. Especially in the operation of my choosen weapon since I haven't used a pistol in years.

This training would be taking place during the practice carry phase.

I would certainly think that anyone contemplating practicing for months with a fake gun would be the kind of person who takes practice seriously.

As for when to use one, I think my previous postings show that I'm NOT a cowboy and will retreat when at all possible. Last thing I want to have to do is kill someone if I can get away without doing so. But I am not adverse to killing if needed.

I've researched for substitutes and am familiar with the use of "red" guns for firearms training. However, thanks to some criminals painting their guns in bright neon colors in hopes of causing momentary confusion in police officers (thanks to the stupid toy manufacturers), if a cop saw a yellow, orange, red, etc object that otherwise looked like a real gun, I'm just as likely to be drawn down on.

I wish to avoid ANY possible confusion with a real gun as much as possible.

The porn is, admittedly, a bit OTP, but I can't think of anything else that (if seen) would stimulate a noticeable reaction from others in public, besides maybe drugs or body parts.

In certain states, like California, getting caught with a realistic simulated firearm is punishable by the same time as a real gun, if you're carrying it while committing a felony.

And guess what? Carrying a BB gun or blank firing weapon into a courthouse or federal building is a felony.

Not to say that you would deliberately carry one into such places, but the idea is to practice your concealed carry as a day-to-day thing. And if you do it for months, you may forget that you're wearing it (like I do with my leatherman) and walk through the metal detector at the courthouse.

I CERTAINLY wouldn't want to try pulling out a "real" gun at such a place. The moment you cleared, you'd probably be shot a dozen times before you hit the ground.

Even if you didn't get shot, you'll be arrested and charged for possessing a weapon in a prohibited area. Try explaining that you're practicing with a realistic firearms for illegal concealed carry into a federal court, and see how well that's received.

Carrying your gun around in your house doesn't constitute any kind of realistic practice. After all, I'm not worried about being spotted carrying in my own home. It's the streets I'm worried about.

Bending over to pick up a can at the grocery store, changing at the gym, pumping gas at the station, riding the bus, etc. etc. is where I'd have to worry about being "made".

Only after I've been successful for several months without being made would I then feel comfortable carrying for real. Because being nervous while carrying is a sure way of drawing attention to yourself.

As far as I've been able to tell from examination of the Penal Code, practicing for concealed carry isn't a crime, only the actual carrying of a weapon concealed is.

Though I'm sure any DA worth his salt could, if pressed, find something to charge you with, but I doubt it would get you convicted by a jury if he took it that far.

I would not practice carrying concealed. More trouble than it is worth.

I guess your freedom isn't worth much to you then.

"Good enough" is what gets people in trouble. No matter how long one has been practicing a skill, you must always strive for better. As the saying goes "Sometimes the teacher, always the student".

If anyone has any suggestions for something that could be used instead of a psuedo-gun to achieve the same purpose, I'm eager to hear it.

Rocko357, you one funny guy.

[branrot]

I think your idea is a little over the top, to put it lightly. Sorry.

Here's what I did: When I first got my CCW, I practiced carrying an unloaded gun around the house. After that, I carried a semi-auto on the street without a round in the chamber. If for some reason the gun fell out or there was some problem, it wouldn't fire until the slide was racked. On the other hand, if I needed it, a round would be one pull of the slide away.

No one is perfect with their CCW. If you look, you can pick them out. The butt of a gun pointing out when someone bends over, or the telltale tab of a fanny pack. As an attorney, I know that carrying a fake gun can get you into almost as much legal trouble as carrying a real one. For example, aggravated assault with a firearm can be charged with a real or a fake gun (though the min/man may be different).

[nbk2000]

Branrot, your reply is irrelevant because you already HAVE a CCW license. And, if I'm not mistaken, Florida is a "shall issue" state for CCW permits if you're clean, correct?

So how does your situation relate to my state where a CCW is only issued if you can somehow convince the local sheriff that you have a need? Need being defined by your contributions to the sheriffs causes and re-election funds?

Oh, and need can't be the silly desire to protect yourself from death threats or anything trivial like that, but to protect money and other "more important" things.

And, if I'm carrying, it's chamber loaded, hammer cocked, safety off. The safety is keeping my finger off the trigger and the barrel on target. "Safetys" kill more people than they save.

[ajaxinacan]

nbk2000,

Play nice. I am sure you didn't mean to draw unnecessary conclusions about how much I value my freedom. My freedom means more to me than you can know.

I stand by my previous advice.

sincerely,
Ajax

[MitchSchaft]

So you mean to tell me that you are contemplating carrying a firearm illegally and you're talking to these guys about how they don't care about their freedom?

[nbk2000]

Doing anything unprepared by previous practice is NOT caring about your freedom.

Doing what you must, despite the law, is a calculated risk taken with full knowledge of the consequences.

And because I know of the consequence, I care enough about my freedom to practice to avoid detection.

That is the difference.

I'm not carrying yet and have no desire too, but recognize the possibility of future need, thus I don't want to be caught unprepared having to play catch up.

Oleg used the term "occupied territory" which is very much like what it feels like to carry a gun knowing that during any random checkpoint or encounter with the "occupying force" that you may be discovered as being "one of them" and locked away in a cage for years and branded as a criminal for exercising your right to keep and bear arms.

I don't remember the Founders ever using the term "good enough" in the Constitution or Bill of Rights. "Good enough" is a slacker motto, not something concerned Americans should be saying.

[blades67]

If you worked as hard at changing the law as you do preparing to break the law, maybe you wouldn't be so hostile and angry.

[don't shoot it's me]

This thread made me laugh so hard I wet myself.....but it got me thinking....so I've been practicing hitting my head agaisnt the steering whell in case of a collision....owwww!

[nbk2000]

I support several local pro-gun advocacy groups, so I'm doing what I can.

don't shot: keep practicing, it seems to be working.

[Hemicuda]

you are right, in certain things, NBK2000, I DO have a CCW, so it isn't the same...

what is, is the fact that I (and others) are CONSTANTLY "making" others, and not reporting it... (I'm HAPPY to see guns on people!)

you wish to perfect the "not being made" so you can comfortably carry illegally?

AIN'T gonna happen... just because you are not verbally confronted about it doesn't mean you aren't "made"

anyone truly LOOKING is likely to make you, if they watch for very long...

and being "made" when all you got is a 2X4 covered in porn and shellac ain't a good thing!

if you are gonna carry, you're gonna get made... and EVENTUALLY you'll get confronted... you better have a permit... and getting made with a 2X4 is as bad (in the eyes of the law) as an illegal gun, in most jurisdictions!

[nbk2000]

Well, I had opprotunity earlier this morning to talk to a friend of a friend who's a sheriffs deputy of a large city (not mine) and told him my idea. After he was done laughing , he said there's nothing they (police) could arrest me for as long as I hadn't been brandishing it like a real weapon, or alluding to having a real weapon, while commiting some other felony like armed robbery.

And I conceded the probability of others "making" me, but I'm not concerned about the people who make me but do nothing about it. It's the people who'll point their fingers and scream "HE'S GOT A GUN!" (overdramatic I know, but still...) that have me concerned.

And, though I'd certainly wouldn't rely on it, it may be that while I'm practicing, a criminal may "make" me and decide to choose another target because he thinks I'm armed.

[allhowl]

This really is FUNNY! I did control my bladder though!!! HA HA HA!

[abrahamsmith]

I don't understand the hostility and rejection directed at nbk2000.

I too have considered this sort of thing (though I was thinking of a large walkman or something rather than a block of wood)

Why? Because my state does not have CCW (Yet! We were darn close in the just-ended congressional session. It all starts again next year.) and I do not intend to carry a firearm illegally, however I can still get non-resident permits for a great many states, and it would be foolish to carry into another state having no experience.

Since CCW is *completely* foreign in wisconsin, I have no experience with it. So, I want to know how annoying it really is to have 1.5lbs strapped to your belt. I tutor and TA for a living, so people's eyes are always on me. Since I'll be teaching until I'm old and senile, I am very curious about how hard it is to carry concealed under that sort of casual but intense scrutiny.

No, I don't expect people to say "Yo, abe -- Why've you got that thing on your belt?" but there are firends i can ask, and it would be nice to know what's possible.

Does this really seem so strange to all of you?

[Double Naught Spy]

nkb2000, your sheriff friend is probably correct that there is nothing that says you can't carry a concealed fake/training/simulated gun so long as you don't brandish it like a gun. That being said, if you get made out in public, say at the grocery store where somebody does scream, "He's got a gun!" you potentially could be written up for nitpicky infractions like disturbing the peace.

As I understand it, it is legal for you to carry flares around with you if you so choose and you could even carry them around in a box labeled Dynamite. Somebody seeing the box and a brief look at the contents might obviously conclude you have dynamite, scare the hell out of the person, creating a panic.