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Old April 24, 2002, 08:36 AM   #1
Mike11b
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Canadian Snipers in Afghanistan

Sorry for the long length...good read though....


"Canadian sets record for a long-distance shot under combat

Wait due to 'Canadian protocol'
A kill from 2,430 metres

The United States wants to give two teams of Canadian snipers the Bronze
Star, a decoration for bravery, for their work in rooting out Taliban and
al-Qaeda holdouts in eastern Afghanistan, but Canadian defence officials
put the medals on hold, the National Post has learned.
The five snipers spent 19 days fighting alongside the scout platoon of the
United States Army's 187th "Rakkasan" brigade last month, clearing out
diehard fighters from the mountains near Gardez in eastern Afghanistan.
The Americans were so impressed by the Canadian snipers that they
recommended them for medals after the battle.
Sources told the Post that U.S. General Warren Edwards had already signed
the recommendation for five Bronze Stars for the sniper teams, drawn from
3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, last month.
Gen. Edwards, deputy commanding general of coalition land forces in
Afghanistan, had recommended three Canadians for a Bronze Star and two for
a Bronze Star with distinction.
The night before the troops were to be awarded the medals, about three
weeks ago, Canadian military officials in Ottawa put the decorations on
hold, according to a U.S. Army source in Afghanistan.
The Canadian military told their U.S. counterparts to wait before awarding
the medals for reasons of "Canadian protocol."
Spokesmen for the Department of National Defence would not comment on the
award last night, but a source within the department said the medals are
on hold while the military decides whether or not to award the men a
similar Canadian decoration.
However, Dr. David Bercuson, director of the Centre of Military and
Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary, said the real reason for
the delay was likely official squeamishness.
"Canadians don't kill -- they don't even use the word kill; that's the
problem," he said. "I think the military is not sure that the government
is prepared to accept the fact, let alone celebrate the fact ... that
Canadian soldiers do sometimes end up killing people."
Many of the U.S. scouts who worked directly with the Canadian snipers were
incensed that the Canadians did not get the Bronze Star, the medal for
bravery the U.S. military usually gives foreign soldiers serving alongside
its troops.
The snipers themselves, all of whom spoke on condition their names not be
printed, have said they would prefer to receive a medal from their peers
in the field rather than from National Defence Headquarters in Ottawa.
Dr. Bercuson said there should be no objection to Canadians receiving a
U.S. decoration: As recently as the Gulf War, two Canadian CF-18 pilots
were given the Bronze Star.
He said the medals would be a badly needed boost to the morale of the
almost 900 Canadian soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan, especially
after four of their comrades were killed and eight others wounded in last
week's friendly fire incident.
"Absolutely they should get it," Dr. Bercuson said. "It would be good for
the morale of the guys and good for the morale of the whole unit, and they
need a morale boost right now."
Canadian snipers were reportedly outstanding in the fighting around the
mountainous al-Qaeda bastion east of Gardez, code-named Operation
Anaconda.
The battle pitted the two Canadian sniper teams against an enemy that
showered the assaulting coalition troops with mortars and machine-gun fire
as soon as they jumped from their helicopters.
One member of the team, a corporal from Newfoundland, said on his first
night in combat he and his partner got an al-Qaeda machine gun in their
sights as it was hailing bullets down on U.S. troops below.
Crawling up into a good position, they set up their .50-calibre rifle --
the MacMillan Tac-50, a weapon the corporal compares to having superhuman
power in your hands. "Firing it feels like someone slashing you on the
back of your hockey helmet with a hockey stick."
When he hit his first target, an enemy gunman at a distance of 1,700
metres, he said all that ran through his mind was locating his next
target.
"All I thought of was Sept. 11th and all those people who didn't have a
chance and the American reporter who was taken hostage, murdered and his
wife getting the videotape of the execution; that is my justification."
A master corporal from Ontario, the lead sniper of his three-man team,
said when they first landed in the combat zone "our spider senses were
tingling.... It was night and we didn't know what to expect."
By daylight, after coming under enemy machine-gun fire, he managed to ease
his rifle barrel between two rocks and quickly located an enemy sniper
hiding behind a small piece of corrugated steel between two trees. He
guessed the distance at 1,700 metres and fired one shot through the metal,
killing the man instantly.
He said afterward he remembered thinking: "That's one less bullet that's
gonna be coming at us, one less person we have to think about."
During the next four days of fighting, the Newfoundland corporal set what
is believed to be a record for a long-distance shot under combat
conditions, hitting an enemy gunman at a distance of 2,430 metres.
The days of crawling, shooting and long hours waiting in cover left the
Canadian snipers exhausted. "You don't realize what you've done to your
body and how tired you are till it's all done. I think we slept 14 or 15
hours when we got back," the master corporal said.
Three of them, along with U.S. special forces soldiers, also rescued a
company of the U.S. 101st Airborne Division that was pinned down by enemy
fire on the first day of Operation Anaconda.
They also participated in Operation Harpoon, with Canadian troops on "the
whale," a mountain overlooking the Shah-e-Kot valley where al-Qaeda
fighters were putting up stiff resistance.
Operation Harpoon, carried out in conjunction with Operation Anaconda,
consisted of 500 Canadian and 100 U.S. troops under the command of
Lieutenant-Colonel Pat Stogran, who leads Canadian Forces in Afghanistan
in the biggest ground offensive since the Korean War.
Lieutenant Justin Overbaugh, of the American scout platoon to which the
Canadian snipers were attached, said it was a pleasure to work with the
Canadian troops.
"Their professionalism was amazing," Lieut. Overbaugh said. "The Canadians
were a very large asset to the mission. I would have loved to have 12
Canadian sniper teams out there. I'd have no problems fighting alongside
of them again."
He said the Canadian snipers had equipment far superior to theirs. Their
rifles had longer range than the U.S. weapons and better high-tech sights.
Lieut. Overbaugh said if another mission comes up, he will request the
Canadian sniper teams be sent with his unit.
Senior military officials in Ottawa made a point of praising their work at
the time. "The sniper teams suppressed enemy mortars and heavy machine-gun
positions with deadly accuracy," Vice-Admiral Greg Maddison said after
Operation Harpoon ended. "Their skills are credited with likely having
saved many allied lives."
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Old April 24, 2002, 08:53 AM   #2
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Damn good shot, Eh?

Hey, dem dere canuck sound like damn fine soldiers, Eh?

Congratulations to a specialty team job well done. They concentrated on the job at hand and had the right motivation. More importantly they were part of our teams on the ground.

Whatever the idiot, pacifist, blissninnies in Ottawa choose to do, they earned that Bronze with V device in my book.

2430 meters! Geez, I have to get in my car and drive that distance, let alone hitting a man sized target. Somebody remind me not to piss off the next Canadian customs officer or Mountie I see.

God Bless our Canadian friends and our troops in the field.

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Old April 24, 2002, 10:27 AM   #3
4V50 Gary
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Are we amused that "Canadians don't kill" so they cannot receive the Bronze Star. 'Scuse me, but can they recieve the Bronze Star if they "eliminate" or "neutralize" or "suppress" the enemy?
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Old April 24, 2002, 10:51 AM   #4
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Just tell the Canadian press that it's a small, pin-on version of the Stanley Cup. They'll all get ticker tape parades and be "REAL" heros!

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Last edited by CZ Gunner; April 24, 2002 at 01:18 PM.
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Old April 24, 2002, 12:28 PM   #5
AllenTC2
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Outstanding!

I've always heard they had a capable military, but it's nice having that confimed.

Now....
Quote:
Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
..if they could just do something about their unit names!
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Old April 24, 2002, 12:38 PM   #6
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If they've got people who can make hits over 2000m with a rifle, they can call themsevles whatever they please.
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Old April 24, 2002, 12:38 PM   #7
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They kicked @ss!! Too bad for us, they also get superior equipment. Maybe our top brass will learn from them..

Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry - OMG!! Sounds mean and snarly. Kind of like "Sugar Plumb Fairy Light Armored Division".
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Old April 24, 2002, 01:20 PM   #8
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Laughing out loud Bronc ... sort of like that Johnny Cash (?) song, something about a boy named "Sue" ...
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Old April 24, 2002, 01:30 PM   #9
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CastleBravo

No kidding, at that kinda range it's a moot point if you're hit by the "Hell on Wheels" 2AD or "Princess Patty's Powderpuffs" LI!

To readers from the Great White North, I mean no insult, but that IS (to me) a funny name for an infantry unit! So take off, you hosers!!

Beauty, eh?

Like the sound of angels, you knob!

Take off!

Bob & Doug (and Geddy) rule!!!
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Old April 24, 2002, 02:55 PM   #10
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Well, I heard at one point that the actual grunt number for the Canadian armed forces is around 7,000... pure hearsay, though.

Oh, listening to Geddy right now... gonna put in some Rush as soon as it's over
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Old April 24, 2002, 03:20 PM   #11
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I think its the names that gets them riled up!!!
I'll toast a labatte blue to all those guys who remembered there neighbors in the name of freedom !! a big thanks
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Old April 24, 2002, 05:57 PM   #12
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You know, in some circles, getting promoted by a Canadian sniper blowing your buddy out of his socks at something over a mile-and-a-half with precision rifle fire could be seen as a sign that God just might not be as much on your side in the war as your brass said He was.

A tip o' the Stetson to the Canadian military for dealing themselves into our little brawl, and another for the McMillan Brothers for the state-of-the-art sniper rifles being used to such good effect.

Quote:
the MacMillan Tac-50
I'm sure Gale was watching over that snipers shoulder on that shot.

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Old April 24, 2002, 06:08 PM   #13
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I like the hockey analogy:

"Firing it feels like someone slashing you on the
back of your hockey helmet with a hockey stick."


And of course, we have to post the link to CANADIAN WARSHIP SEIZES TANKER IN... WAIT...CANADA HAS A WARSHIP?
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Old April 24, 2002, 09:10 PM   #14
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And to think that Al-Queda dude was just minding his own business 1.5 miles away when he met his 72 virgins.
Dam straight that Gale is proud and bravo to our northern neighbors for getting good equipment that does the job beyond eyesight.
I love it
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Old April 24, 2002, 11:43 PM   #15
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Mike11B
Thanks for posting this info to The Firing Line. This sort of thing is great to hear... The "Byes" are makin' us right proud!

Quote:
They kicked @ss!! Too bad for us, they also get superior equipment. Maybe our top brass will learn from them..
...If only the rest of the CF could say that...

Quote:
..if they could just do something about their unit names!
The PPCLI is one of Canada's oldest regular force units, with some of the most distinguished battle honours. From ww1, ww2, Korea, the Gulf War ,Peacekeeping out the whazoo, and now Afghanistan, they hold their heads high...They are a proud fighting force. Nope, they aren't the Magificent Bastards, or the 101st... They are who they are... They don't need to be anything else.


Quote:
I'll toast a labatte blue to all those guys who remembered there neighbors in the name of freedom !! a big thanks
As a matter of fact, I'm havin' a few Blue right now and I can't imagine a better toast!
Cheerz!
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Old April 24, 2002, 11:59 PM   #16
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Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
(For a detailed directory of the PPCLI history, click the image above)


History



The Regiment was born in Ottawa in August, 1914 as a result of the offer of Captain Andrew Hamilton Gault on the 3rd of August, to provide $100,000 to finance and equip a Battalion for overseas service.

On the 6th of August, 1914 Captain Gault's offer was provisionally accepted by the Canadian Government. Authority was formally granted on the10th August, 1914 (by way of a Report to the Privy Council of Canada (PC 2112)) to raise and equip an infantry battalion, with the remainder of the cost being defrayed by the Department of Militia and Defence.

On the10th of August, 1914 the Charter of the Regiment was signed and on the next day mobilization began. Eight days later, it was completed, as old soldiers flocked from every part of Canada. Out of 1,098 all ranks accepted into the new Regiment, 1,049 had seen previous service in South Africa or in the regular forces of the British Empire. In addition to personnel from the Royal Navy and Marines, almost every unit in the British Army had its representation.

L. Col Francis D.Farquhar, DSO, an officer of the Coldstream Guards who was Military Secretary to His Royal Highness, the Duke of Connaught and Stathearn, The Governor-General of Canada, was selected to command the new battalion.

L. Col Farquhar suggested the the Regiment bear the name of the Duke's youngest daughter, Her Royal Highness Princess Patricia of Connaught. The request was made to the princess, who graciously consented to the regiment bearing her name. The Light infantry came about because Captain Gault, a veteran of the South African War, liked the "Irregular feel" it gave the regiment.

The full title of Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Mobile Infantry was too long for everyday use, and the new unit became known as "PPCLI", with "PP's" or "Pip Pip's", the most common variants.
The Regiment was best known to the public as "Princess Pats" or merely the "Pats", but this partial abbreviation is discouraged within the regiment, which now prefers to be known as the "Patricia's".

The Edmonton City Police Pipe Band had enlisted in Ottawa under a gallant old Highlander, Pipe Major C. Colville. Reporting in full Highland Kit with the Hunting Stewart tartan, they announced
to the Colonel that they had come "to pipe you to France and back again" Colonel Farquhar was able to take them on establishment and they lightened many a march for the Regiment and proved stouthearted stretcher bearers in action as well.
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Old April 25, 2002, 01:59 AM   #17
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No surprise the shot was taken by a Newfie, all they do on that island is hunt and fish.

I wonder if the corporal gets to take his MacMillan Tac-50 home to Newfoundland for moose hunting holidays?

Also I am surprised that any equipment in the Canadian army is superior to the American gear. I never heard of the MacMillan rifle before this article.

As for Ottawa regarding the metals, I have to say that it is typical Canadian government behaviour and the most likely explaination is bureaucratic infighting and the endless complaining and whining that is so typical of Canadian politics. They probably want a french translation added to the backside the American metals before they can be presented to Canadian soldiers.

Cheers Smoker
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Old April 25, 2002, 02:11 AM   #18
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Actually the Canadian Military is well armed for the Weapons it does have, look at the vehicles we sent to afganistan with FLIR capability for perimiter watch and the advanced land mine detection.

Most of the Grunts are equipped with a rifle sporting an Elcan Scope on a full size M16a2 rifle with a 20" bbl..... no wussy M4 for our boys. :P

All of our M16 rifles are made by Diemaco ;

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Old April 25, 2002, 08:38 AM   #19
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No problem Freedom....

as a veteran US Army Infantryman with a Bravo 4 identifier (Sniper Qualified) I am proud as hell of my brothers in Afghanistan right now. Most of the units over there rarely get press (and personally that's a good thing). Oddly enough, I have seen a lot of "snipers" interviewed over there. Bottom line...I'm jealous as hell. I thought the M24 was high speed.....now there are Barretts and MacMillans in almost every arms room. I know its unneccessary to say it to most TFLer's, but support your troops and check your own sixes daily...the world has changed.
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Old April 25, 2002, 08:48 AM   #20
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I'm embarrassed to say that I can't find any photographs or detailed descriptions of the MacMillan Tac-50 sniper rifle. If anyone knows of a good link I would be very grateful if they could post it.

Thanks for any help in advance, Cheers Smoker
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Old April 25, 2002, 09:28 AM   #21
Mike11b
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try this....

Hey smoker.....check here

http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcbros/tactical/tac.htm
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Old April 25, 2002, 07:09 PM   #22
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Foreign Honours to Canadians

Just to clear up a few preconceptions, reference the awarding of an American decoration to a Canadian service member , the Canadian Directorate of History and Heritage (DHH) states the Canadian protocol pretty clearly. "Canadian poilcy requires Government approval before an order, decoration or medal can be awarded to one of it's citizens. Otherwise, Canada will not recognize the honour, and it cannot be worn with national honours or on a Canadian Forces (CF) uniform." Now before y'all get in a tizzy over this, consider that this policy was in an attempt by Canada to develop it's own honour system, independant of the honours awarded by the British Monarchy. As Canada evolved as an independant state, it was felt that Canadians needed their own independant system of rewards. However, still having a Queen and all, (who BTW is a babe !!), the DHH states that "The Sovereign is the fount of all Canadian honours. Foreign honours must emanate from a similar level, a head of state or government, to be recognised. Awards originated by some other or lower authority are regarded as private honours. These can be accepted as private momentos only. Except for courtesy reasons at the moment of presentation, they cannot be worn with national honours or on a CF uniform". So, in a nutshell, the Canadian snipers can accept the Bronze Stars as a private reward, but they are not recognised, nor can they be worn on their uniforms unless the Stars are directly issued by the President of the United States. (For more details on this, see
www.dnd.ca/dhh/contacts/engraph/home_e.asp)

PS: The McMillan Bros Tac 50 rifle carries the Canadian Firearms Reference Table Legal Classification of "Non-Restricted" (cross reference FRT # 43512-2). This means that every young downhomer Newf can legally buy and possess their very own sniper rifle, but they needs to catch one "lordy-gawd almighty" pile-o-codfish in order to afford one ...
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Old April 25, 2002, 07:45 PM   #23
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Canadian Sniper in Trouble

Story is here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/672779/posts


Seems one of the Canuck snipers said something offensive to a chaplain during "stress counseling" and is now facing a court martial. :barf:
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