How can we get more traffic to this forum?

MrPink · August 4, 2002, 11:48 AM

I am a class 3 enthusiast. I also like TFL for the wide and varied responses generally received here.

But the full-auto board is next to dead. The only full-auto board that seems somewhat busy is subguns.com and it suffers a lot of problems from flamers and jerks.

Any thoughts about how to drive more traffic to this forum?

MitchSchaft · August 4, 2002, 12:08 PM

Sure, make full autos more accessible, less expensive.

444 · August 4, 2002, 12:25 PM

Repeal the NFA, and the assult weapons ban and we would be more popular than the handgun board.
Unfortunately, there are not a lot of people able to enjoy the ownership of NFA weapons either because of local legal issues or because of monetary reasons.
I recently purchased a Sten MkII as my first NFA weapon. I found a Sten "list" and subscribed. Sadly, 99% of the stuff on their is not from owners of legal Sten guns, but from people asking how to build up parts kits and how to manufacture reciever tubes. You are right, there isn't a lot around to read on the subject. I am also in the market for a couple supressed weapons. I am finding virtually no good solid information on the subject. I get all kinds of comments like, "I recommed brand X", but no one gives me any reasons why. I appreciate the help, but I want to know the theory behind various designs, which one is better etc. I can't find a source for that kind of information.

The Rock · August 4, 2002, 04:46 PM

Maybe some payoffs?

Title II stuff is fairly restricted. This has caused it not to have the impact that normal stuff has. Really, if you visit gun shows and gun stores, 'real' knowledgable people are few and far between. Most folks to whom I mention or show our Class III stuff too always seem to ask: 'Isn't that illegal?"

FUD really has taken its toll on the NFA stuff.

I make it a point to run by the laws quickly and let folks know that they can get it. I always speak at Club functions and the like. Every little bit helps.

TR

ACP230 · August 4, 2002, 04:46 PM

How many posters here subscribe to Small Arms Review? If all did we might have more to talk about here.
The September issue's theme is "The Guns Of Stalingrad."
Interesting articles on Soviet subguns and carbines.

Truth in Posting Statement: I have done some writing for SAR, but would be reccomending it even if I hadn't.

AZYoungGun · August 4, 2002, 11:18 PM

Despite the fact that I am under the age to own any firearm, I am highly interested on all firearms topics. I just ran across this forum today. However, I cannot view any posts or threads on the topic because the post organizer thing (for lack of a better term) at the bottom of the page (for setting how far back you can view posts) is not functioning. I tried searching to all available time lengths but to no avail. Can anyone help? While I can't provide you with much valuable knowledge on the F-A topic, I am interested on learning whatever anyone here has to offer. Can anyone (a moderator, perhaps?) help me with this problem so I can view past posts? Thank you!

Nick R.

fal308 · August 5, 2002, 09:50 AM

I too subscribe to SAR. I find every issue highly fascinating and regularly go back to my library of back issues (all of them back to Vol1 No1) for information of some sort or another. SAR also has a very helpful archive index on their website.
It's about the only magazine for firearmsleft that I subscribe to, besides SWAT, anymore

444
For some detailed articles on suppressors, check out that index. There are several good technical articles on suppressors. Especially ones written by Al Paulson. SAR is supposed to be publishing the results of their Suppressor Trials, hopefully soon!

MrPink · August 5, 2002, 03:00 PM

I've been a subscriber of SAR since Machine Gun News folded with my money! The last issue of SAR was tops - the Silencer Issue.

Not looking for a great info site, just one where there is good disucssion and mabe passing along tips to fellow shooters. This site might have traffic given so many have replied to this post! Maybe we just toss out some discussion topics to get this ball rolling?!?!

The Rock · August 5, 2002, 04:29 PM

Hmm. I'll need to do that.

SAR is the cat's pajamas.

TR

Tamara · August 6, 2002, 12:54 PM

Tell your friends.

MLH · August 6, 2002, 01:30 PM

Buy everybody on the TFL one of those nice guns and we would all reply to this forum with great thanks!

Tamara · August 6, 2002, 01:53 PM

Hey, now there's an idea!

Jamie Young · August 6, 2002, 02:51 PM

If you've hung around here long enough (like I have) you'll noticed that things are still growing at a steady rate. The "Lock and Load forum" was hardly viewed up until about 8 months ago. Now It gets about 10 times as much attention as it did 8 months ago.

Start posting good topics!

I always check this forum out but don't know enough to start debates. If you've got something to say POST IT!

citizen · August 6, 2002, 04:26 PM

....like it doesn't take me nearly two hours twice a day to go through the "new posts"......

Jart · August 6, 2002, 11:16 PM

I can tell you why I never checked the forum in a year or so (got here today following the G18 thread). It may or may not apply to others.

1. It's my understanding that there's no new product entering the supply stream. There's a fixed number of transferable arms.

2. As a result of (1) prices have gotten whacko - reasonable enough for those that really want the product but a bit outlandish to an "outsider". As example, I'd suspect that there's only about $6.00 worth of parts difference between a Glock 17 and 18 at the manufacturing level. But the 18 doesn't cost 606.00 it evidently costs 15,000.00 - unless there was some good natured ribbin' going on in the G18 thread.

3. If (1) and (2) are correct, there likely won't be much in the way of "new blood". Any hobby that can't attract new members is ultimately doomed. There's a natural reluctance to drop 1,500.00 on a beanie baby that originally sold for 2.29 - ditto 15,000 for a pistol that one "knows" is 14,300 in profit for the guy that "got his". I'd much prefer the pistol to the beanie baby but I doubt the fudiciary watchdogs in my household could discern much of a difference in "perceived value".

I'm not saying the above is fact - in fact, I really, really hope somebody says I'm wrong - after all, I WANT IN. The only reason I'd admit to my (hopefully incorrect) perceptions is that I share these beliefs with a lot of equally uneducated folks that would love to start their NFA paperwork and haunt the forum; and you did ask why we weren't showing up, after all.

Thanks in advance.

Tamara · August 7, 2002, 01:16 AM

Probably the cheapest way into the world of full-auto is either a MAC-10/11 or a Vector/Group Industries Uzi; figure $1,500-$2,000 for the former or $2,500-$3,000 for the latter if you shop around. (Plus the $200 tax stamp, of course...)

444 · August 7, 2002, 06:30 AM

The bottom end of the full auto market is similar in price or less than a good custom handgun. My Sten was $2250 which was a better than average deal. I saw a suppressed MAC in .380 the other day for $2500. Uzis are a little more than that, maybe $1000-$1500 more than that.
To me, NFA stuff is more about collecting. Buying relatively new, pretty much state of the art stuff is out of the question. You could buy a Harley, or even a new car for what some of this stuff costs; and I am not talking about the real exotic stuff, I am talking stuff like an HK MP5. Don't get me wrong, I would rather have, and would personally buy the HK, long before I bought a Harley; but either one is just another toy.
As luck would have it, I always said that the three machine guns I would like to own are a Sten, an M3 Grease gun, and a Thompson. The first one is doable, the last two, maybe someday. Right now they aren't totally out of the question, but close.

444 · August 7, 2002, 06:42 AM

All that got me thinking, let me re-phrase my last post a little better.
The machine gun segment of our hobby is fairly expensive for those of us who were unable to get into it before now. But when you consider it compared to other common toys or hobbies, machine guns arn't all that bad. As I mentioned in my previous post, you can get into a machine gun for less than a 1911 race gun from one of the big name gunsmiths. For the price of a Harley, you can get into just about any reasonable machine gun you could want. Hell, I work with some guys that have full on race cars. I am not talking about some hooptie with a number painted on the door; I am talking about a real race car that they run in professional races. For that kind of money, you could be shooting a quad 50 or a mini-gun.

HKP7PSP · August 7, 2002, 03:33 PM

You can get a brand new Vector UZI for $3000. I just got one, along with a .22 and .45 conversion. And I *love* it. Also a new Mac11A1 .380 for $1200 which I don't love, but it is humerous as to how fast it fires. I am glad I have it, but I would hate to have it as my only one. If you can have just one, get a Vector UZI. http://www.vectorarms.com/indexframe.html
No real reason to get the .45 conversion kit. Just makes it harder to shoot (more muzzle rise) and more expensive ammo. The .22 kit works most of the time with certain ammo.

Hkmp5sd · August 7, 2002, 06:09 PM

Only problem is it costs a whole lot more to feed a machinegun that a Harley. About $5 a magazine through my MP5 in just a few seconds.

johnr · August 8, 2002, 06:09 AM

http://www.smallarmsreview.com
Small Arms Review

JimFromFL · August 8, 2002, 07:40 AM

Have a weekly posting of women with Class IIIs. This would help increase traffic.

ACP230 · August 8, 2002, 10:03 AM

There are still some relative bargains in FA guns. If you live in a state that isn't restricted to C&R FA weapons the Stemple 76/45 is available NIB for $1,500 to 1,700 (add a bit more if you want the suppressor.) This looks a bit like a S&W M76 but is in .45. A 9mm conversion kit is available. I would have bought one of these if not for the C&R problem related above.

M760s are going for about $2,200. They are a knock off of the Smith M76, not C&R.

I forgot to mention Reising M50s earlier. The going rate seems to be $2100 to $2500 but a friend round an undermarket deal with several magazines not too long ago. Reisings are also .45 ACP guns and fun. They sometimes need new springs and a few new parts, but after that they work pretty well.

Johnny Guest · August 8, 2002, 01:10 PM

I usually do a run through on this forum about once a week, because, I guess, I am accustomed to there being little traffic. I think back, though, and realize that I personally have only started one or perhaps two threads here. [Note to self: Run a search and check participation.]

So, I resolve to start something--anything-- from time to time.

Best,
Johnny Guest

Jart · August 8, 2002, 10:06 PM

for the replies - maybe there's hope after all. I'll check out the options. I had actually been all enthused about full auto a while back - something about a select fire Bushmaster Arm pistol that looked like it wanted to follow me home. I'd manage to make room for an IMI Tavor or Bushmaster 17S as well - weakness for bullpups, I guess.

Personally, I'd prefer a full auto that I'd still like if it wasn't full auto - the Tavor comes to mind. I'm sure the Mac 10 and Uzi will start looking better - availability being worth a 4 point bump on a scale of 1 to 10.

My luck in "collectible" markets is legend - I still think I'm personally responsible for the softening in the resto Corvette market; and who else could lose money on real estate? Three times? As a service to the members of TFL, I will stay clear of any weapon that might rely on collectibility to derive any part of its value.

Cheers.

August 4, 2002, 11:48 AM	#1
MrPink Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2000 Posts: 165	How can we get more traffic to this forum? I am a class 3 enthusiast. I also like TFL for the wide and varied responses generally received here. But the full-auto board is next to dead. The only full-auto board that seems somewhat busy is subguns.com and it suffers a lot of problems from flamers and jerks. Any thoughts about how to drive more traffic to this forum? __________________ LEGALIZE FREEDOM "Yeah, that's easy for you to say, you're Mr. White, you have a cool sounding name. Alright look, if it's no big deal to be Mr. Pink, you wanna trade?"

August 4, 2002, 12:25 PM	#3
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	Repeal the NFA, and the assult weapons ban and we would be more popular than the handgun board. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of people able to enjoy the ownership of NFA weapons either because of local legal issues or because of monetary reasons. I recently purchased a Sten MkII as my first NFA weapon. I found a Sten "list" and subscribed. Sadly, 99% of the stuff on their is not from owners of legal Sten guns, but from people asking how to build up parts kits and how to manufacture reciever tubes. You are right, there isn't a lot around to read on the subject. I am also in the market for a couple supressed weapons. I am finding virtually no good solid information on the subject. I get all kinds of comments like, "I recommed brand X", but no one gives me any reasons why. I appreciate the help, but I want to know the theory behind various designs, which one is better etc. I can't find a source for that kind of information. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

August 4, 2002, 04:46 PM	#4
The Rock Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 1999 Location: Occupied VA, CSA Posts: 351	Maybe some payoffs? Title II stuff is fairly restricted. This has caused it not to have the impact that normal stuff has. Really, if you visit gun shows and gun stores, 'real' knowledgable people are few and far between. Most folks to whom I mention or show our Class III stuff too always seem to ask: 'Isn't that illegal?" FUD really has taken its toll on the NFA stuff. I make it a point to run by the laws quickly and let folks know that they can get it. I always speak at Club functions and the like. Every little bit helps. TR __________________ Molon Labe! Will YOU stand with ME?

August 4, 2002, 04:46 PM	#5
ACP230 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2000 Posts: 708	How many posters here subscribe to Small Arms Review? If all did we might have more to talk about here. The September issue's theme is "The Guns Of Stalingrad." Interesting articles on Soviet subguns and carbines. Truth in Posting Statement: I have done some writing for SAR, but would be reccomending it even if I hadn't. __________________ "To disarm the people (is) the best & most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason.

August 5, 2002, 03:00 PM	#8
MrPink Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2000 Posts: 165	I've been a subscriber of SAR since Machine Gun News folded with my money! The last issue of SAR was tops - the Silencer Issue. Not looking for a great info site, just one where there is good disucssion and mabe passing along tips to fellow shooters. This site might have traffic given so many have replied to this post! Maybe we just toss out some discussion topics to get this ball rolling?!?! __________________ LEGALIZE FREEDOM "Yeah, that's easy for you to say, you're Mr. White, you have a cool sounding name. Alright look, if it's no big deal to be Mr. Pink, you wanna trade?" Last edited by MrPink; August 5, 2002 at 04:37 PM.

August 4, 2002, 12:08 PM	#2
MitchSchaft Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2001 Posts: 1,197	Sure, make full autos more accessible, less expensive.

August 4, 2002, 11:18 PM	#6
AZYoungGun Member Join Date: July 26, 2002 Location: Mesa, AZ, USA Posts: 42	Despite the fact that I am under the age to own any firearm, I am highly interested on all firearms topics. I just ran across this forum today. However, I cannot view any posts or threads on the topic because the post organizer thing (for lack of a better term) at the bottom of the page (for setting how far back you can view posts) is not functioning. I tried searching to all available time lengths but to no avail. Can anyone help? While I can't provide you with much valuable knowledge on the F-A topic, I am interested on learning whatever anyone here has to offer. Can anyone (a moderator, perhaps?) help me with this problem so I can view past posts? Thank you! Nick R.

August 5, 2002, 09:50 AM	#7
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	I too subscribe to SAR. I find every issue highly fascinating and regularly go back to my library of back issues (all of them back to Vol1 No1) for information of some sort or another. SAR also has a very helpful archive index on their website. It's about the only magazine for firearmsleft that I subscribe to, besides SWAT, anymore 444 For some detailed articles on suppressors, check out that index. There are several good technical articles on suppressors. Especially ones written by Al Paulson. SAR is supposed to be publishing the results of their Suppressor Trials, hopefully soon!

August 5, 2002, 04:29 PM	#9
The Rock Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 1999 Location: Occupied VA, CSA Posts: 351	Hmm. I'll need to do that. SAR is the cat's pajamas. TR __________________ Molon Labe! Will YOU stand with ME?

August 6, 2002, 12:54 PM	#10
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	Tell your friends. __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

August 6, 2002, 01:30 PM	#11
MLH Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2002 Location: Louisville, Ky. Posts: 165	You could Buy everybody on the TFL one of those nice guns and we would all reply to this forum with great thanks! __________________ Don't ever doubt that I will shoot. Trial by 12 before carry by 6. "There is no distinctly native American criminal class, save congress." Mark Twain

August 6, 2002, 01:53 PM	#12
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	Hey, now there's an idea! __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

August 6, 2002, 02:51 PM	#13
Jamie Young Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2000 Location: SE/PA Posts: 4,834	If you've hung around here long enough (like I have) you'll noticed that things are still growing at a steady rate. The "Lock and Load forum" was hardly viewed up until about 8 months ago. Now It gets about 10 times as much attention as it did 8 months ago. Start posting good topics! I always check this forum out but don't know enough to start debates. If you've got something to say POST IT! __________________ Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities. www.TheRallyPoint.org Get your gun club involved!!

August 6, 2002, 04:26 PM	#14
citizen Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2000 Posts: 796	....like it doesn't take me nearly two hours twice a day to go through the "new posts"...... __________________ ILLEGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM NRA, GOA, AOC Ignorance can be cured, Stupid is forever Life is too short for dial-up

August 6, 2002, 11:16 PM	#15
Jart Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2001 Location: Grand Prairie, TX Posts: 1,647	Well.... I can tell you why I never checked the forum in a year or so (got here today following the G18 thread). It may or may not apply to others. 1. It's my understanding that there's no new product entering the supply stream. There's a fixed number of transferable arms. 2. As a result of (1) prices have gotten whacko - reasonable enough for those that really want the product but a bit outlandish to an "outsider". As example, I'd suspect that there's only about $6.00 worth of parts difference between a Glock 17 and 18 at the manufacturing level. But the 18 doesn't cost 606.00 it evidently costs 15,000.00 - unless there was some good natured ribbin' going on in the G18 thread. 3. If (1) and (2) are correct, there likely won't be much in the way of "new blood". Any hobby that can't attract new members is ultimately doomed. There's a natural reluctance to drop 1,500.00 on a beanie baby that originally sold for 2.29 - ditto 15,000 for a pistol that one "knows" is 14,300 in profit for the guy that "got his". I'd much prefer the pistol to the beanie baby but I doubt the fudiciary watchdogs in my household could discern much of a difference in "perceived value". I'm not saying the above is fact - in fact, I really, really hope somebody says I'm wrong - after all, I WANT IN. The only reason I'd admit to my (hopefully incorrect) perceptions is that I share these beliefs with a lot of equally uneducated folks that would love to start their NFA paperwork and haunt the forum; and you did ask why we weren't showing up, after all. Thanks in advance.

August 7, 2002, 01:16 AM	#16
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	Jart, Probably the cheapest way into the world of full-auto is either a MAC-10/11 or a Vector/Group Industries Uzi; figure $1,500-$2,000 for the former or $2,500-$3,000 for the latter if you shop around. (Plus the $200 tax stamp, of course...) __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

August 7, 2002, 06:30 AM	#17
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	The bottom end of the full auto market is similar in price or less than a good custom handgun. My Sten was $2250 which was a better than average deal. I saw a suppressed MAC in .380 the other day for $2500. Uzis are a little more than that, maybe $1000-$1500 more than that. To me, NFA stuff is more about collecting. Buying relatively new, pretty much state of the art stuff is out of the question. You could buy a Harley, or even a new car for what some of this stuff costs; and I am not talking about the real exotic stuff, I am talking stuff like an HK MP5. Don't get me wrong, I would rather have, and would personally buy the HK, long before I bought a Harley; but either one is just another toy. As luck would have it, I always said that the three machine guns I would like to own are a Sten, an M3 Grease gun, and a Thompson. The first one is doable, the last two, maybe someday. Right now they aren't totally out of the question, but close. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

August 7, 2002, 06:42 AM	#18
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	All that got me thinking, let me re-phrase my last post a little better. The machine gun segment of our hobby is fairly expensive for those of us who were unable to get into it before now. But when you consider it compared to other common toys or hobbies, machine guns arn't all that bad. As I mentioned in my previous post, you can get into a machine gun for less than a 1911 race gun from one of the big name gunsmiths. For the price of a Harley, you can get into just about any reasonable machine gun you could want. Hell, I work with some guys that have full on race cars. I am not talking about some hooptie with a number painted on the door; I am talking about a real race car that they run in professional races. For that kind of money, you could be shooting a quad 50 or a mini-gun.

August 7, 2002, 03:33 PM	#19
HKP7PSP Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2001 Location: MA Posts: 169	You can get a brand new Vector UZI for $3000. I just got one, along with a .22 and .45 conversion. And I love it. Also a new Mac11A1 .380 for $1200 which I don't love, but it is humerous as to how fast it fires. I am glad I have it, but I would hate to have it as my only one. If you can have just one, get a Vector UZI. http://www.vectorarms.com/indexframe.html No real reason to get the .45 conversion kit. Just makes it harder to shoot (more muzzle rise) and more expensive ammo. The .22 kit works most of the time with certain ammo.

August 7, 2002, 06:09 PM	#20
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	Only problem is it costs a whole lot more to feed a machinegun that a Harley. About $5 a magazine through my MP5 in just a few seconds. __________________ NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member

August 8, 2002, 06:09 AM	#21
johnr Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2000 Posts: 695	http://www.smallarmsreview.com Small Arms Review __________________ Just an old Keyboard Cowboy, ridin' the Trackball into the Dawn of Information...

August 8, 2002, 07:40 AM	#22
JimFromFL Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2001 Posts: 185	Have a weekly posting of women with Class IIIs. This would help increase traffic.

August 8, 2002, 10:03 AM	#23
ACP230 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2000 Posts: 708	There are still some relative bargains in FA guns. If you live in a state that isn't restricted to C&R FA weapons the Stemple 76/45 is available NIB for $1,500 to 1,700 (add a bit more if you want the suppressor.) This looks a bit like a S&W M76 but is in .45. A 9mm conversion kit is available. I would have bought one of these if not for the C&R problem related above. M760s are going for about $2,200. They are a knock off of the Smith M76, not C&R. I forgot to mention Reising M50s earlier. The going rate seems to be $2100 to $2500 but a friend round an undermarket deal with several magazines not too long ago. Reisings are also .45 ACP guns and fun. They sometimes need new springs and a few new parts, but after that they work pretty well. __________________ "To disarm the people (is) the best & most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason. Last edited by ACP230; August 9, 2002 at 02:15 PM.

August 8, 2002, 01:10 PM	#24
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	Okay, I'm game - - - I usually do a run through on this forum about once a week, because, I guess, I am accustomed to there being little traffic. I think back, though, and realize that I personally have only started one or perhaps two threads here. [Note to self: Run a search and check participation.] So, I resolve to start something--anything-- from time to time. Best, Johnny Guest

August 8, 2002, 10:06 PM	#25
Jart Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2001 Location: Grand Prairie, TX Posts: 1,647	Thanks for the replies - maybe there's hope after all. I'll check out the options. I had actually been all enthused about full auto a while back - something about a select fire Bushmaster Arm pistol that looked like it wanted to follow me home. I'd manage to make room for an IMI Tavor or Bushmaster 17S as well - weakness for bullpups, I guess. Personally, I'd prefer a full auto that I'd still like if it wasn't full auto - the Tavor comes to mind. I'm sure the Mac 10 and Uzi will start looking better - availability being worth a 4 point bump on a scale of 1 to 10. My luck in "collectible" markets is legend - I still think I'm personally responsible for the softening in the resto Corvette market; and who else could lose money on real estate? Three times? As a service to the members of TFL, I will stay clear of any weapon that might rely on collectibility to derive any part of its value. Cheers.