Militia members down LEO chopper

[Covert Mission]

This is old news to some, but I wanted to post an excerpt, adn draw attention to a quote which made me laugh at its absurdity. The quote and important passages in boldface, and my comments at end

from:
http://www.apbnews.com/cjprofessiona...ey0428_01.html

Downing of Chopper Leaves Police Wary
Extremists Held in Unprecedented Civilian Attack

April 28, 2000
By David Barry

DEATH VALLEY, Calif. (APBnews.com) -- One month after three heavily armed anti-government extremists shot down a California Highway Patrol helicopter and held 118
law officers at bay for 12 hours, authorities are mulling what went wrong -- and right -- in the potentially deadly conflict.

Three suspects surrendered shortly before midnight March 17 after spraying gunfire from a makeshift desert bunker at a CHP helicopter, downing the aircraft. Authorities said it was the first time civilians downed a police helicopter.

The incident began at 5:15 a.m. when a Nevada highway patrolman stopped a black BMW for speeding on U.S. Highway 95, about 65 miles north of Las Vegas. Seeing a shotgun in the vehicle, he radioed for help and waited in his car for backup before writing the ticket. When the backup car arrived, the BMW sped away, and the chase was on.

The shooting came without warning a few minutes later when a passenger in the BMW stuck his head out of the sunroof and fired four shots from an M-1 carbine at a sheriff's deputy's vehicle. Uninjured, the deputy dropped back and continued the pursuit By 8 a.m., when the CHP Long Ranger helicopter arrived from Dagget, the trio in the BMW had struck out across the saltpan for the Panamint Mountains and abandoned the car when it got mired in mud. Carrying rifles, pistols and plenty of ammunition, they made their way on foot to a gully that they fashioned into a bunker by piling rocks at both ends.

"Our air unit arrived and went looking for the suspects' location, taking directions from a park ranger with a spotting scope," Bonnett said. "Unfortunately, the helicopter crew flew right over the bunker at about 250 feet and took two bullets from the .308 rifles they were firing." One bullet passed harmlessly through a cowling. Another bullet hit an oil line and ricocheted into the transmission oil cooler, forcing an emergency landing. "They lost all their oil," Bonnett said of the helicopter crew. "But they managed to fly it for over a mile and put it down safely."

A search of the BMW turned up a stockpile of weapons and ammunition. "There was over 700 rounds of .308 rifle ammunition, both regular and armor-piercing," Lutze said. "There were rifles, some scoped, some without, shotguns, pistols, a derringer and knives. There were at least 200 shotgun shells." Lutze said there was also extremist literature, some of it written by the elder Burrus. Lutze and Deputy Jim Jones made phone calls to Idaho to find out information about the fugitives and learned that Lloyd Burrus had ties to a militia in Alaska and had outspoken anti-government views.

"People said they doubted Lloyd would surrender," Jones said. "When they were arrested, they still had 500 rounds with them." Rifle fire at the aircraft continued through the afternoon. Toward nightfall, a helicopter from the Kern County Sheriff's Department and a U.S. Customs jet arrived with special night-vision equipment, which allowed officers to see the suspects and report what they were doing. By 10:30 p.m., the suspects were arguing over whether to stay and shoot it out, or leave the bunker and go for water and supplies, authorities said.

"The guys on the ground had night-vision glasses, and they were close enough to hear the argument," Bonnett said. Bonnett said the argument had heated up to the shouting and shoving stage when SWAT team officers yelled at the suspects to surrender. "We can see you, but you can't see us. You're surrounded. Give it up." Then the Kern County helicopter lighted up the scene with a multimillion candlepower searchlight. The suspects surrendered without resistance. All three are being held on $250,000 bail in Independence, facing multiple charges of attempted murder of peace officers.

Bruce Hoffman, a national expert on terrorism for the Rand Corporation in Washington, was surprised to hear of the downing of the CHP helicopter.Hoffman said he is disturbed by the way the growing availability of off-the-shelf hardware has become a "force equalizer" in conflict and violence. "It used to be that governments had a technological superiority over their adversaries," Hoffman said. "But with armaments, bulletproof vests and armor-piercing bullets available, that's gone." "We're not completely powerless against these adversaries," he said. "Law enforcement agencies are better trained than they've ever been."
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Not completely powerless. Would that be an example of understatement?

Let's see:

bozo Bad guys= old BMW stuck in mud
Good guys= helicopters and jets

Bozo Bad guys= assorted motley civilian weapons
Good guys= automatic weapons

Bozo Bad guys= stuck alonein the dark, cold and thirsty
Good guys= warm, with radios, night vision gear and 2 million candlepower searchlights

Bozo Bad guys= nowhere to go
Good guys= all the time in the world, with reinforcements aplenty

Bozo Bad guys= no body armor
Good guys= body armor

Yeah, I just wonder why the heck that SWAT team didn't just surrender. They barely stood a chance.

Not completely powerless. What a stupid thing to say, and an obvious example of trying to induce panic among the sheeple.
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[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited May 01, 2000).]

[Munro Williams]

Those guys who shot down the helicopter were dangerous buffoons and I hope they get the book thrown at them.

[Keystone]

I'm not sure if this qualifies, but I think some Mohawk Indians shot down a National Guard medivac chopper back in the early '90's during a tribal dispute. These guys had fully automatic weapons and there was an intra-tribal dispute going on. Some town up by Massena, NY was a battleground for about a week. As I recall, several people were killed and the chopper was there evacuated some wounded when it was shot down, despite being clearly marked with Red Cross insignia. It autorotated in and no one was hurt, but it was a shoot-down. Any fellow New Yorkers have a better recollection of this?

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TRAVELLER, SHOULD YOUR ROAD LEAD YOU TO SPARTA, TELL THEM THAT YOU SAW US LYING HERE AS THE LAWS WILLED IT.

-Inscritption on a Greek monument to Leonidas

[Covert Mission]

Munro:

I agree. They're dangerous idiots, aka criminals.

This event is an aberration. For this Hoffman bozo to imply that militia types pose a serious pervasive threat is way off the mark, and incendiary, imo. Any thoughts here?

[Herodotus]

Covert Mission and Munro:
If you are old enough to remember Vietnam, you should know all about the Rand Corporation of Washington D.C. In those days they were bozos (many think war crimials) all the way to the bitter end. In fact, they helped make the end even more bitter than it had to be.
I take it from Bruce Hoffman's absurd statements that they are sill prime bozos trying to cause as much trouble as they can.
Remember, if he can rake up the muck, he might get is corporation a nice fat grant to study the newly discovered "problem". And if once funded, the "problem" will be found to go on and on forever. He is not a disinterested observer.

[Munro Williams]

Hoffman sounds like one of those parasites who create crises so's to grab government money, hopefully, notoriety, and finally, some soft virtual job at a university or in the government. In otherwords, another dangerous buffoon, but one who's operating within a dangerous system which needs virtual science to justify and perpetuate its virtual existence.

Herodotus, looks like we were typing essentially the same thing at the same time.


[This message has been edited by Munro Williams (edited May 01, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Munro Williams (edited May 01, 2000).]

[Jeff Thomas]

Well, it's going to be pretty embarrassing when they hit prison and have to explain they were caught because they got their BMW stuck in mud in Death Valley. That can't be easy ...

[Gorthaur]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> the growing availability of off-the-shelf hardware[/quote]Huh? Isn't .308 roughly the same as 30-06? They were able to take down the chopper because it wasn't an armored chopper. They could have used grand-pappy's deer rifle.

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Protect your Right to Keep and Bear Arms!

[6forsure]

pretty good thing taking out a helicopter with small arms fire. kind of impressive.
______________________________________
government bootlickers can bite me


[This message has been edited by 6forsure (edited May 03, 2000).]

[ernest2]

ernest2 ...My two cents worth.

#1.The whole incedent could have been avoided by not speeding.

#2. The Three suspects were held at bay by
118 machine gun welding swat team black kevlar shelled ninja turtles for 12 hours and not the other way around.

#3. The three suspects took refuge from the 118 machine gun carring black kevlar shelled ninja turtles,
who were backed up by helicopters and jet aircraft,in a ditch in the dessert.

There never was any so called "bunker".

Fearing for their lives and thinking that the helicopter was armed with yet more machine guns,the three suspects fired two rounds at the helicopter from a 308 bolt action hunting rifle and got lucky as one of the two so called "sprayed" rounds [just how do you manage to "spray" only two shots?]managed to rickoshay into an oil cooler line and deprive the helicopter
of oil , causing it to land safely.

Don't you just love the way the government propagandaists "spin"[read lie] the story out of any percieved sembulance to reality.


Commentary:
Acording to Bruce Hoffman, self styled and so called "expert" on national terrorism( or is that "propaganda"} for the Washington DC based Rand Corp.:
"The 118 machine gun armed , kevalar vested
swat team members, backed up by helicopters and jet aircraft,two way radios and infa red night vision rifle scopes that turns nighttime into daylight,
" were not completely powerless against the three suspects" who were
taking refuge in a ditch in the dessert armed
with bolt action .308 hunting rifles.

This is begining to sound like another Waco and another "Miami -Elain" -to me!

Three suspects pinned down for 12 hours by 118 jack booted turtles.

[This message has been edited by ernest2 (edited May 03, 2000).]

[Joel Harmon]

Soap box mode on.

This is really interesting. This guy is speeding, gets pulled over, and then takes off again (with cop knowing about shotgun). The problem with some of these cops is that they don't know when to draw the line. Indeed, speeding is against the law. Having a shotgun in the car is only against law(s) made unconstitutionally (in some places).

Because PEOPLE in Washington (or at the state or local level) say "xyz is against the law", we the sheeple follow it. Sometimes the sheeple are too quick to follow laws already on the books "because the laws are already there". However, these same sheeple are quick to fight the potential passage of laws they don't believe are constitutional or otherwise fair.

Why don't sheeple fight laws that are already on the books as well. This is one problem I have with NRA (even though I just joined last month for a three year membership). They take the defense all the time and very rarely the offense. If you only fight the anti-rights legislation you might be able to keep most of these crap laws out, but not all of them. Some of them will get through and over time the list grows.

Not too long ago the people had a right to their automatic weapons but not anymore. I think people having automatic weapons is necessary to keep the govt. in check (should it ever come to that). The govt. already grossly out arms us with their VERY expensive and sophisticated equipment. A machine gun is the least they could do for us. Yet they banned these supposedly because a few undesireables were murdering people. I think the real reason was for that "one more step to total disarmament".

We need to see more laws proposed that say "you must have a firearm whenever going anywhere" or something that repeals the machine gun ban and all of these other stupid firearms laws currently on the books. This would put the anti-rights activists on the defensive. Let them spend their money trying to defend their stupid ideas instead of us spending our hard earned cash trying to defend our GOD Given and constitutionally given right to defense against crime and govt.

How about writing one that says "the right of the people to keep AND BEAR (carry, tote, whatever you want to call it) arms shall not be infringed"........whoops we already have that one.

It's your opinion to say what you want about this incident. I guess he did break a speeding law and he did have a firearm in the car (God forbid). He did fire at police when being pursued but you know that once they got pulled over the cops would be all over those guys with weapons drawn. I'll admit that what they did isn't exactly a cause to defend but they were on the right track. Not by firing on police without being fired on first, but by driving away when they felt they got held up for a stupid law.

Soap box mode off.

I know you guys want to...so flame away.

Joel

[ak9]

Why was having a shotgun in the car against the law? Did this guy have oustanding warrants against him? Running was stupid. Speeding was stupid. The cop calling for backup because of the shotgun seems like a resonable precaution to me. Sounds like these boys pushed the panic/paranoid button to me and blew it. This one ranks up there. Got news for you. The founding fathers wanted us to have equal firepower with our police so that tyranny could be opposed. Sorry, that is the intent of the 2nd amendment.

[This message has been edited by ak9 (edited May 03, 2000).]

[RickD]

Hmmmm 118 armed agents. Two helicopters and a jet to take care of two thirsty and hungry Beemer drivers.

If the feds think they need and become comfortable only with these kinds of odds, boy, when the fertilizer hits the fan, they will be in for a surprise.

Rick

[Gorthaur]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why was having a shotgun in the car against the law?[/quote]If it wasn't in the trunk, they were violating California law.

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Protect your Right to Keep and Bear Arms!

[panzerfuehrer]

Ref Keystone's post

Yep, a buddy of mine was on that chopper. It was a clearly marked VTARNG Huey on a medevac mission, entirely unrelated to the incident on the Mohawk reservation (Ganienkeh, I think). Was taken down with a Mod 94-type deer rifle. Nobody was hurt, but the chopper was forced to land on tribal land, and there was quite a bit of hoopla over getting it back from the Mohawks.

I believe the whole reservation issue was over tribal sovereignty and what business they could pursue on tribal land.

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Panzerführer

Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.

Those that beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those that don't.

[LawDog]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Fearing for their lives and thinking that the helicopter was armed with yet more machine guns,the three suspects fired two rounds at the helicopter from a 308 bolt action hunting rifle and got lucky as one of the two so called "sprayed" rounds [just how do you manage to "spray" only two shots?][/quote]

Not quite. Here's what the article actually said:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> "Unfortunately, the helicopter crew flew right over the bunker at about 250 feet and took two bullets from the .308 rifles they were firing.[/quote]

It didn't say two were fired--it said two hit the chopper.

You make it sound like the critters were armed with only one .308-- <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Fearing for their lives and thinking that the helicopter was armed with yet more machine guns,the three suspects fired two rounds at the helicopter from a 308 bolt action hunting rifle [/quote]--but in actuality, the critters were armed with:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> "There were rifles, some scoped, some without, shotguns, pistols, a derringer and knives. [/quote] and had already:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>stuck his head out of the sunroof and fired four shots from an M-1 carbine at a sheriff's deputy's vehicle.[/quote]

118 'Ninja Turtles' pinning the critters down? The article mentions 118 Law Officers. It doesn't mention how many of them were SWAT types.

In any case, if 118 SWAT oficers were what it took to drag the critters out of their hole without killing any of them--okay by me. Hell, if it took 5000 SWAT officers to get them in custody WITHOUT KILLING THEM then it's money well spent.

Sort of reminds me of the good old boy who proudly tells everyone he meets that, "It took six officers to take me in." What he doesn't know is that it took six officers to ake him in without putting him in the hospital.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Don't you just love the way the government propagandaists "spin"[read lie] the story out of any percieved sembulance to reality.[/quote]

It isn't just the "government" propagandists doing it.

LawDog

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited May 03, 2000).]

[Mikul]

&lt;Devil's Advocate&gt;
"Speeding was stupid."

Making speeding illegal is stupid. We ALL know that it's a source of income, not a safety issue. Therefore, it's extortion. The police officer pulled the guy over to extort him for money. The guys in the car decided to have none of that, and fired on the armed theif with the badge.
&lt;/Devil's Advocate&gt;

Having said that, it is more likely that these two were simply out to kill a cop. With all of those weapons in their car, it seems highly likely that they were looking for trouble, and eventually wound up better than where they belong.

Nice shooting on the helicopter, though.

[Erik]

Some thoughts that come to mind:

It is normal to be pull someone over for speeding, if that is your job.

It is normal to be pulled over for speeding, if that is what you are doing.

It is normal to call for backup on a traffic stop when you see a weapon.

It is normal to obey the laws where you live regarding firearms in vehicles.

It is not normal for non-criminals to speed away from a traffic stop. When you do so you become a criminal.

It is not normal for people to shoot at the police. Be it their cars, helicopters, or person. Another dtail that makes you a criminal.

It is normal for law enforcement to use helicopters, especially in remote areas, to assist in crisis situation. Criminals shooting at the police during a car chase are "crisis situations."

It is normal to "call the calvary" when dealing with armed criminals who are shooting at you. Jets, helicopters, tanks, deputies from across the entire state, troopers parachuting out of the sky, men on horse back... When you are the police officer being shot at, enough back up cannot arrive quickly enough.

...

They were taken into custody, not killed. The good guys did a good job, fromwhat I read.

Swap out the words "anti-government extremists", or militia members, for "gang bangers." Are you still sympathetic?



[This message has been edited by Erik (edited May 03, 2000).]

[ds1973]

My impression is that cops these days are a little too full of themselves. They push the average citizen around and display an air of superiority because they can carry a gun and we can't (according to the Nazi laws they enforce). We should disarm our police and arm the citizenry. The war on drugs has made our police into special forces units armed to the teeth.

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The first step is registration, the second step is confiscation, the final step is subjugation.

[Keystone]

Pzfuehrer-
Thanks for the details on the Mohawk shoot-down.

For the forum as a whole:
This brings up an interesting thread. Are Native Americans allowed to own automatic weapons on a reservation? The Mohawks in question surely had them (though it was a generic deer rifle that bagged the chopper (no "rickoshay" off those aluminum-skinned Hueys).

If I someday find federal rule intolerable, can I have my property assimilated into the nearest Indian tribe, in effect making it a reservation and thus exempt from federal and state law? Is the creation of new reservations possible? Can a non-Native American (me) live on a legitimate reservation (let's say I pay the tribe in question handsomely for the privilege) to avoid government interference in my life?

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TRAVELLER, SHOULD YOUR ROAD LEAD YOU TO SPARTA, TELL THEM THAT YOU SAW US LYING HERE AS THE LAWS WILLED IT.

-Inscritption on a Greek monument to Leonidas

[This message has been edited by Keystone (edited May 03, 2000).]

[kjm]

I agree with the assessment on speeding tickets being legalized theft. I also concur that these fella's while not very prudent, were well within their rights to possess ten thousand rounds and fifty "assault" rifles if they so chose. I disagree however that they should have shot at the deputies. At that point they became criminals, and I applaud the LEO's that brought them in without injuring them.

[6forsure]

i'm still impressed erik. i'm impressed with the skills of many jack booted thugs as well. even if you subsitute police officers for jack booted thugs.


keystone,

the full autos were probably indian police weapons

[LawDog]

Motor Vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death for ages 5-32.

32% of all drivers 15-24 years of age involved in fatal crashes were speeding.

Drivers involved in speed related fatal crashes are more likely to have a history of traffic violations.

Nearly 40% of male drivers involved in fatal crashes were speeding.

In states that increased the highway speed limit to 65 mph, the fatalities increased by 30%.

In 1993, 40,115 people died in highway crashes. The equivilent of a jet crashing, killing 100 people EVERY day.

In 1992, 16 - 20 yr old ----
5,717 Fatal crashes,
75,000 Incapacitating injuries,
161,000 Non-Incapacitating injuries.

99 out of every 100 people injured in the United States Transportation System, are injured in motor vehicle crashes.

SOURCES

National Highway Safety Administration
Advocates for Highway Safety
National Highway Transportation Safety Administration
New Hampshire Department of Safety
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration

LawDog

[westex]

It's obvious those bozos in the BMW were not in their right minds and totally at fault. They were in Kalafornia.

RKBA!

[mrat]

These guys were idiots and dangerous. I hope they lock them up so they can't hurt anybody.

The support they are receiving here makes us look like "gun nuts". It is this kind of behavior contributes to us loosing the PR campaign in RKBA.