Why isn't the 1903A3 legal for John C. Garand Matches?

Gewehr98 · January 26, 2002, 11:03 AM

Just got an earful for trying to use a Springfield 1903A3 for the local John C. Garand match. Sure enough, in the rules, it states the earlier 1903 is legit, but no such luck for the WWII-issued 1903A3. I'm assuming that because of the rear peep sight, it offers an accuracy advantage over the 1903, but are they worried that too many matches would be won away from the M1 Garands?

FPrice · January 26, 2002, 11:15 AM

My first guess would be that since the match is the "John C. Grand" match, it is shot using a John C. Garand designed weapon.

Gewehr98 · January 26, 2002, 11:46 AM

From the CMP John C. Garand match rules, verbatim:

_________________________________________________

"Shooters may use any “as-issued” U. S. service rifle including the M1 Garand, M1903 Springfield, M1917 Enfield, M1941 Johnson or .30 Cal. M1 Carbine. Rifles must have standard stocks and be equipped with military-type web or leather slings. Rebarreling with barrels of “as-issued” dimensions is permitted, but “NM” parts or glass bedding is not permitted."

________________________________________________

Now, it's obvious my 1903A4 wouldn't be allowed for competition. But I find it odd that the WWII .30-06 bolt-action counterpart of the Garand is specifically disallowed, while its WW1 version is fine. M1 carbines are just plain fun, and are especially attractive to the younger shooters, being easier to handle and having less recoil than the full-sized .30-06 rifles.

Khornet · January 26, 2002, 11:53 AM

Couldn't be because of the peep, since M1 has it too. I bet it's just an oversight so to speak, being enforced mindlessly.

Rome · January 26, 2002, 01:00 PM

The rules say

" Shooters may use any “as-issued” U. S. service rifle including the M1 Garand, M1903 Springfield, M1917 Enfield, M1941 Johnson or .30 Cal. M1 Carbine..

What part of "ANY" does that person not understand?

Rome

Gewehr98 · January 26, 2002, 03:25 PM

Unfortunately, the CMP, being an entity forged from a military organization (remember the DCM?) has continued with the same style of rules interpretation. In other words, if an item isn't specifically mentioned, it's disallowed. Hence, no M1903A3. Heck, for that matter they could also disqualify me if I chose to bring my 1903A1, but they were never marked any differently than "U.S. Springfield, M1903", on their receivers. Same could also go for the M1903Mk1. I do intend to petition the rule interpretation that disallows M1903A3 rifles. Sounds silly, the M1903A3 was very much an issued weapon to WWII troops, even more so than the M1941 Johnson.

700PSS Shooter · January 27, 2002, 12:22 AM

"any..., including..." is not the same as "use the following only...". Does not mean only those listed. This is not a military interpretation, just an arbitrary one. The shooter should query the NRA competition branch for a clarification/possible future amendment to the rule, although to my read it is inclusive as written.

BigJoe · January 27, 2002, 08:12 AM

a major anal retentive a-hole who told you that your '03A3 was not allowed. What a jerk, at the National JCG Match at Perry, there were plenty of '03A3's on the line next to me. What a sight. Now I do believe that they won't be allowing the .30 Carbine to be shot in this year's JCG Matches. As to that piece o' sh#* who is turning ANY shooter away from becoming involved in Highpower Rifle in any way, he should have strips of skin ripped from his body and tossed in a vat o' seawater. I can't believe that someone would be so stupid. I would seriously look into another club if it is at all possible, because if the club itself is sanctioning such a jackass running a "fun" match, they are as much to blame as he is. Good luck - Joe

Christopher II · January 27, 2002, 03:06 PM

I've shot in a John C. Garand match in which my squadmate used a 1903A3. The offical in question is wrong, and needs to have his head pulled out.

- Chris

Gewehr98 · January 27, 2002, 05:24 PM

The cranial-rectal inversion syndrome still pervades. Not only that, but my logic of using the Camp Perry Garand Match winners (being that they ran 1903A3's) was shot down with the retort that their scores weren't accepted because they were 1903A3's. I think I'm trying to teach a pig to sing here, folks. I brought the subject up over at CSP Gun Talk, and will formulate a polite, yet firm, email for the folks at CMP to chew on.

BigJoe · January 28, 2002, 05:05 PM

G, are you saying that the CMP is agreeing with the official at your club? I hope that is not the case as I would be extremely disappointed with them for backing him. I am sure if you give them a call, they would be happy to send off a letter clarifying this rule.

January 26, 2002, 11:03 AM	#1
Gewehr98 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2000 Location: Token Creek, WI Posts: 4,067	Why isn't the 1903A3 legal for John C. Garand Matches? Just got an earful for trying to use a Springfield 1903A3 for the local John C. Garand match. Sure enough, in the rules, it states the earlier 1903 is legit, but no such luck for the WWII-issued 1903A3. I'm assuming that because of the rear peep sight, it offers an accuracy advantage over the 1903, but are they worried that too many matches would be won away from the M1 Garands? __________________ "Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round... Neural Misfires

January 26, 2002, 11:15 AM	#2
FPrice Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2000 Location: People's Commonwealth of Massachusetts Posts: 1,456	My first guess would be that since the match is the "John C. Grand" match, it is shot using a John C. Garand designed weapon. __________________ Frosty Price "No matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Banzai

January 26, 2002, 11:46 AM	#3
Gewehr98 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2000 Location: Token Creek, WI Posts: 4,067	Not the case. From the CMP John C. Garand match rules, verbatim: _________________________________________________ "Shooters may use any “as-issued” U. S. service rifle including the M1 Garand, M1903 Springfield, M1917 Enfield, M1941 Johnson or .30 Cal. M1 Carbine. Rifles must have standard stocks and be equipped with military-type web or leather slings. Rebarreling with barrels of “as-issued” dimensions is permitted, but “NM” parts or glass bedding is not permitted." ________________________________________________ Now, it's obvious my 1903A4 wouldn't be allowed for competition. But I find it odd that the WWII .30-06 bolt-action counterpart of the Garand is specifically disallowed, while its WW1 version is fine. M1 carbines are just plain fun, and are especially attractive to the younger shooters, being easier to handle and having less recoil than the full-sized .30-06 rifles. __________________ "Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round... Neural Misfires

January 26, 2002, 11:53 AM	#4
Khornet Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: NH Posts: 585	1903A3 Couldn't be because of the peep, since M1 has it too. I bet it's just an oversight so to speak, being enforced mindlessly. __________________ The M1 does MY talking!

January 26, 2002, 01:00 PM	#5
Rome Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2000 Location: Connecticut Posts: 420	Clear misintrepation The rules say " Shooters may use any* “as-issued” U. S. service rifle including the M1 Garand, M1903 Springfield, M1917 Enfield, M1941 Johnson or .30 Cal. M1 Carbine.*. What part of "ANY" does that person not understand? Rome

January 26, 2002, 03:25 PM	#6
Gewehr98 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2000 Location: Token Creek, WI Posts: 4,067	Rome, you and I are using common sense here. Unfortunately, the CMP, being an entity forged from a military organization (remember the DCM?) has continued with the same style of rules interpretation. In other words, if an item isn't specifically mentioned, it's disallowed. Hence, no M1903A3. Heck, for that matter they could also disqualify me if I chose to bring my 1903A1, but they were never marked any differently than "U.S. Springfield, M1903", on their receivers. Same could also go for the M1903Mk1. I do intend to petition the rule interpretation that disallows M1903A3 rifles. Sounds silly, the M1903A3 was very much an issued weapon to WWII troops, even more so than the M1941 Johnson. __________________ "Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round... Neural Misfires

January 27, 2002, 12:22 AM	#7
700PSS Shooter Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: Virginia (The Old Dominion) Posts: 367	grammar "any..., including..." is not the same as "use the following only...". Does not mean only those listed. This is not a military interpretation, just an arbitrary one. The shooter should query the NRA competition branch for a clarification/possible future amendment to the rule, although to my read it is inclusive as written. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

January 27, 2002, 08:12 AM	#8
BigJoe Member Join Date: February 18, 2001 Location: Kommonwealth of Mass. Posts: 34	Think you encountered... a major anal retentive a-hole who told you that your '03A3 was not allowed. What a jerk, at the National JCG Match at Perry, there were plenty of '03A3's on the line next to me. What a sight. Now I do believe that they won't be allowing the .30 Carbine to be shot in this year's JCG Matches. As to that piece o' sh#* who is turning ANY shooter away from becoming involved in Highpower Rifle in any way, he should have strips of skin ripped from his body and tossed in a vat o' seawater. I can't believe that someone would be so stupid. I would seriously look into another club if it is at all possible, because if the club itself is sanctioning such a jackass running a "fun" match, they are as much to blame as he is. Good luck - Joe __________________ Molon Labe ! Eastern Mass. Rifle Range http://www.westwoodgunclub.org

January 27, 2002, 03:06 PM	#9
Christopher II Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 1999 Location: Germantown, MD Posts: 2,349	I've shot in a John C. Garand match in which my squadmate used a 1903A3. The offical in question is wrong, and needs to have his head pulled out. - Chris __________________ "There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him." – Robert Heinlein "Contrary to popular belief, your vote does not matter, and you cannot make a difference." - Bob Murphy, "Picking Neither of Two Evils" My PGP Public Key

January 27, 2002, 05:24 PM	#10
Gewehr98 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2000 Location: Token Creek, WI Posts: 4,067	As of today's match... The cranial-rectal inversion syndrome still pervades. Not only that, but my logic of using the Camp Perry Garand Match winners (being that they ran 1903A3's) was shot down with the retort that their scores weren't accepted because they were 1903A3's. I think I'm trying to teach a pig to sing here, folks. I brought the subject up over at CSP Gun Talk, and will formulate a polite, yet firm, email for the folks at CMP to chew on. __________________ "Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round... Neural Misfires

January 28, 2002, 05:05 PM	#11
BigJoe Member Join Date: February 18, 2001 Location: Kommonwealth of Mass. Posts: 34	G, are you saying that the CMP is agreeing with the official at your club? I hope that is not the case as I would be extremely disappointed with them for backing him. I am sure if you give them a call, they would be happy to send off a letter clarifying this rule. __________________ Molon Labe ! Eastern Mass. Rifle Range http://www.westwoodgunclub.org