Beretta vs. Sig vs. HK for Law Enforcement - Page 2

agtman · March 20, 2002, 10:49 PM

Actually, ....

... they're all HUGE guns in relation to that little itty-bitty round they're chambered for. I mean, what do 9mm mavins feel they need a full-size "duty" pistol for? To somehow make-up for the iffy-ness of the round? None of these pistols has any "recoil" to speak of - it's a 9mm for christsake. The max size in an LE "duty gun" chambered in 9mm shouldn't exceed that of a G-19. If it does, you've just defined "inefficiency," at least as it relates to the concepts of weight and mass.

Anyway, of the 3 choices listed, you're best off going with the Sig 226. Hulking, heavy, accurate, amenable to still-relatively-inexpensive 15-rd hi-caps, and quite reliable. Get it with Trijicons.

The HKs are way too expensive for what you're getting, a big, hulking 9mm with a weird mag release placement. Yeah, it's popular with the mall ninjas and supposedly the first choice of special-forces types everywhere (or so the glossy PR pictures imply), but the money saved by getting the Sig can go to ammo, mags or whatever.

The Berettas are accurate and good looking, but that slide thing still makes me nervous. Yeah, they say it got fixed, and on another thread it was made clear that the "FS" designation stands for "fixed slide" (allegedly by way of with a cross-pin stuck up in there somewhere, just in case), but I don't know. Just the image of all those military grunts having to duck and dodge that slide on recoil would make it hard for me to concentrate on hitting the bullseye.

rysai · March 20, 2002, 11:05 PM

sigfan,

realized my post could be misunderstood, speaking of the bulkiness of the usp and not the weight so much...

Shootin' Shane · March 21, 2002, 01:22 AM

Quote:

The HKs are way too expensive for what you're getting, a big, hulking 9mm with a weird mag release placement. Yeah, it's popular with the mall ninjas and supposedly the first choice of special-forces types everywhere

How can mall-ninjas afford those outrageous HK's on their measley salary?

355sigfan · March 21, 2002, 03:36 AM

The max size in an LE "duty gun" chambered in 9mm shouldn't exceed that of a G-19. If it does, you've just defined "inefficiency," at least as it relates to the concepts of weight and mass.
END

That’s an opinion one I would disagree with, as would most others. I am not a huge fan of the 9mm but I respect it with the right loads its very good. As for pistol size a duty gun should be full size. A Glock 19 is a poor duty gun size in my opinion. Why limit you sight radius, velocity, capacity and practical accuracy due to having a shorter sight radius when you could have a full size gun.

A Glock 19 is a good ccw or plain clothes officer gun where concealment is an issue. I think the 34 is an even better choice as a duty gun in 9mm.
PAT

GSB · March 21, 2002, 07:47 AM

Quote:

The HKs are way too expensive for what you're getting, a big, hulking 9mm with a weird mag release placement.

Define weird and see my previous post. If by "weird" you mean "different", yes. If by "weird" you are implying that it is not an efficient and fast, that's not the case. For the most part, it is a faster and requires less grip geometry change to release a USP mag than a mag from a gun with a stock 1911-style release. The thumb is not as natural a release mechanism as the forefinger is.

Shake · March 21, 2002, 11:00 AM

agtman

Quote:

The HKs are way too expensive for what you're getting, a big, hulking 9mm with a weird mag release placement. Yeah, it's popular with the mall ninjas and supposedly the first choice of special-forces types everywhere (or so the glossy PR pictures imply), but the money saved by getting the Sig can go to ammo, mags or whatever.

I disagree with your assessment of the USP 9mm. Of the three choices you recommend the SIG, then pronounce that the H&K is "too expensive for what you're getting". Have you ever priced the H&K compared to a SIG? I can walk down to my local dealer right now and buy a Full sized stainless USP for $479. I'd pay a bunch more than that for a SIG 226.

As far as the "for what you're getting" part. I find that people who believe the H&K to be "huge" compared to other comparable firearms really haven't looked at the actual dimensions. they do look big, but compare the dimensions of a full sized USP 9mm to a Glock 9mm and you may be surprised. If you are saying that full sized 9mms in general are too big, then I may agree with you.

As far as the mag release placement, I prefer it over any other and know many people who feel likewise. For you it may be "wierd", for many of us it is excellent.

Define a "mall ninja" and explain to us how they have the funds to buy a "too expensive" (according to you) firearm. I have never, and I mean NEVER seen a USP in the holster of a security guard. I have seen them in the holsters of an awful lot of sheriffs officers, cops, and knowledgable shooters.

As far as the gloss PR stuff, get over it. Who can blame a company for promoting a product? If you want to talk about stuff like that, look around first. SIG does the same thing. Here is a quote from their website regarding the 226:

Quote:

In use by the U.S. Navy SEALS, Federal agents, and numerous law enforcement agencies including the Ohio State Highway Patrol, Texas Department of Public Safety and the Michigan State Police to name a few;

I sure as hell can't see any big difference in price between the H&K and the SIG, so how am I going to buy extra mags and ammo?

Shake

agtman · March 21, 2002, 12:56 PM

Shootin' Shane & others:

Good point about the probable income level of mall ninjas.

As far as observed retail prices for HKs, the last one I saw at the shop in my area, an HK compact in .45acp, was $850, IIRC.

The prices in other locales, like Utah, are evidently more "depressed" and don't reflect the significantly higher price asked for elsewhere. OTOH, a typical matte blue Sig (sans night sites) here runs between $650-$700, depending on the model.

PAT:

Just an FYI, but the standard "duty" sidearm for the N.Y.P.D. is (or was) the 9mm G-19 (issued with a plethora of hi-cap mags for if they suddenly need 47 shots to bring down a BG

).

My point was, a "duty sidearm" doesn't have to be the bulkiest, heaviest "full-size" model available, especially when the pre-selected caliber choice is 9mm. Beretta, HK and Sig all offer more compact models (e.g., Sig 228) that would serve well in the same role.

nascarnhlnra · March 21, 2002, 03:23 PM

Funny how someone said the Beretta outperformed the Sig in every milatery and LEO tests cause the way I've heard it was Sig also passed everything and it boiled down to one being cheaper which was the Beretta. i would put Sig above Beretta every time.

Steve in PA · March 21, 2002, 04:58 PM

I am a LEO and I currently carry a Sig P220 .45acp and love it. Shoots great, been carrying it for about a year. Before that I carried a Beretta 92FS 9mm and still have it. The only reason I went to the Sig was because I wanted a different caliber, got a good deal on it and just wanted a new pistol

I'm not going to get into a pi$$ing contest about the Beretta. If you don't like it for whatever reason, fine....stay away from it. I personally owned my Beretta before carrying it on duty. I have had it for 10+ years...and never had a problem with it. No parts breaking, no slides hitting me in the face, no springs breaking, no problems with triggers, etc. Rugged? You betcha!! I must have put around 1,500 to 2000 rounds a year at the least through my Beretta (I reload, so I like to shoot alot).

I also have a S&W 6906 9mm for off-duty carry, which I really love too. A very accurate pistol.

Which do I prefer?? Well, I have and will always have a soft spot for the Beretta. It does fit my hand like a glove......but I do love the Sig!!! Oh the pain and torture of choosing!!!

355sigfan · March 21, 2002, 06:03 PM

agtman

NYPD does not have a standard issue gun they can choose between the Glock, Sig and Smith. I understand your point but I prefer a duty sidearm to be full size. The only reason to make a firearm smaller is so its easier to conceal. A duty sidearm is not concealed when your a patrolman.
PAT

GSB · March 21, 2002, 07:11 PM

Quote:

i would put Sig above Beretta every time.

I guess it depends on one's personal experience with each manufacturer. I'm lucky enough to have a USP .45, a Beretta Elite II in 9mm, a Sig P220 and a Sig P232. Both Sigs, while very finely made pistols, have jammed on me, both within the first two hundred fifty rounds of use (I haven't put much more than that through either of them yet. I will be putting probably 500 more through the P220 in the next couple of weeks and see if it's just unhappy with Sellier and Bellot in particular). Neither the Beretta or HK have ever had an FTF on me in several thousand rounds each.

Now, we're talking .5% failure rate on the Sigs, a failure rate I can absoultutely live with and even trust my life to. But it does mean that I can't really rate the Sigs higher than the HK or the Beretta. All are fine pieces of hardware, all are durable. I'm just trying to illustrate that when you're talking about brands at this level of the firearms food chain, it becomes a matter of pure personal preference over any quantitative functional issues.

Moe Mentum · February 15, 2005, 10:55 AM

I prefer the Beretta 92, I've had it for over 10 years, and its never failed yet.

rauchman · February 15, 2005, 11:54 AM

Greetings,

While I'm not LEO, I do own a 92FS, 226, and a USP45F. Any of the guns mentioned are excellent pistols. Someone mentioned that 9mm in guns of this size is inefficient. I respectfully disagree. I also have a G19 and a 225 and I always shoot the larger guns more accurately. I'm also faster on the follow up shots with a bigger pistol. Anyway, here are some of my observations.

Beretta:
Astethically my favorite ( very subjective)
Grip is a little big ( Vertec fixes that)
Trigger a little long and heavy (D model main spring reduces trigger weight)
Have over 3k on this pistol and have never had any kind of hiccup.
Sights are a little small
Pistol is very accurate, but (being subjective again) I find it the hardest to be accurate on

Sig:
Easy to be accurate on
Great ergos
Great sights
Don't like the placement of the slide release as I tend to ride it with my thumb
Bought the pistol used and have put 2k on it without any hiccups.

USP: (should preface this my saying I've only shot about 200 rounds on the 9mm variant)
Very low recoil
Easy to be accurate on with practice
Great sights
I prefer this style mag release
Only gripe I have is that the mags are plastic and I've read some instances where the mags are more prone to break than the metal counterparts ( such as those found on the 45F and Compacts)
Lots of people criticize the USP trigger, but I have found on my 45F that after 1k or so rounds, the trigger smoothes up nicely.

Handy · February 15, 2005, 12:00 PM

This thread is three years old.

IanS · February 15, 2005, 12:33 PM

Yeah, but it sounds like the same arguments we'd have this year.

InToItTRX · February 15, 2005, 05:07 PM

Take it from another LEO go with the Beretta. I use a Beretta 96 for off duty carry. I currently carry an H&K USP on duty however it is the departments firearm. Why would someome bring back a 3 year old thread?

abelew · February 15, 2005, 10:15 PM

i hate berettas guns, but thats a personal matter, get a hk

pdt1793db · February 15, 2005, 10:34 PM

Personally I would go with the Sig first the Beretta second and the HK not at all I dont really like there grips there to boxy and there to exspensive for what they are. I think an all metal gun would serve you better than a polymer gun would considering you will carry it every day and will be subjected to harsher conditions than it would if you just took it to the range. I do agree with the thread on the Beretta Vertec but the Sig also dose not have a safty but just a decocking lever. Do what you want but thats my two cents

kittyhawk · February 16, 2005, 12:09 AM

I have carried a Sig 226 as a cop for 4 years and and NEVER had a problem with it. Now I carry a Sig 229 in .357 for the last 3 years I am on my 4th gun due to shooting about 15,000 to 20,000 through each(we shoot a lot, well we use to), had the rear sight fall off during a quall. Id go with the Sig it will not let you down.

March 21, 2002, 12:56 PM	#32
agtman Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: midwest Posts: 2,374	Shootin' Shane & others: Good point about the probable income level of mall ninjas. As far as observed retail prices for HKs, the last one I saw at the shop in my area, an HK compact in .45acp, was $850, IIRC. The prices in other locales, like Utah, are evidently more "depressed" and don't reflect the significantly higher price asked for elsewhere. OTOH, a typical matte blue Sig (sans night sites) here runs between $650-$700, depending on the model. PAT: Just an FYI, but the standard "duty" sidearm for the N.Y.P.D. is (or was) the 9mm G-19 (issued with a plethora of hi-cap mags for if they suddenly need 47 shots to bring down a BG ). My point was, a "duty sidearm" doesn't have to be the bulkiest, heaviest "full-size" model available, especially when the pre-selected caliber choice is 9mm. Beretta, HK and Sig all offer more compact models (e.g., Sig 228) that would serve well in the same role. Last edited by agtman; March 21, 2002 at 07:05 PM.

March 21, 2002, 03:23 PM	#33
nascarnhlnra Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2002 Location: THE DEEP SOUTH USA Posts: 531	Funny how someone said the Beretta outperformed the Sig in every milatery and LEO tests cause the way I've heard it was Sig also passed everything and it boiled down to one being cheaper which was the Beretta. i would put Sig above Beretta every time. __________________ The sound of a 12 gauge pump clears a house faster than Rosie O eats a Big Mac !

March 21, 2002, 04:58 PM	#34
Steve in PA Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 1999 Location: Northeastern PA Posts: 756	I am a LEO and I currently carry a Sig P220 .45acp and love it. Shoots great, been carrying it for about a year. Before that I carried a Beretta 92FS 9mm and still have it. The only reason I went to the Sig was because I wanted a different caliber, got a good deal on it and just wanted a new pistol I'm not going to get into a pi$$ing contest about the Beretta. If you don't like it for whatever reason, fine....stay away from it. I personally owned my Beretta before carrying it on duty. I have had it for 10+ years...and never had a problem with it. No parts breaking, no slides hitting me in the face, no springs breaking, no problems with triggers, etc. Rugged? You betcha!! I must have put around 1,500 to 2000 rounds a year at the least through my Beretta (I reload, so I like to shoot alot). I also have a S&W 6906 9mm for off-duty carry, which I really love too. A very accurate pistol. Which do I prefer?? Well, I have and will always have a soft spot for the Beretta. It does fit my hand like a glove......but I do love the Sig!!! Oh the pain and torture of choosing!!! __________________ Steve

February 15, 2005, 05:07 PM	#41
InToItTRX Registration in progress Join Date: December 8, 2004 Posts: 304	Take it from another LEO go with the Beretta. I use a Beretta 96 for off duty carry. I currently carry an H&K USP on duty however it is the departments firearm. Why would someome bring back a 3 year old thread? __________________ \

February 15, 2005, 10:15 PM	#42
abelew Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 778	i hate berettas guns, but thats a personal matter, get a hk __________________ "Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise violence." ~ Mohatma Gandhi

March 20, 2002, 10:49 PM	#26
agtman Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2001 Location: midwest Posts: 2,374	Actually, .... ... they're all HUGE guns in relation to that little itty-bitty round they're chambered for. I mean, what do 9mm mavins feel they need a full-size "duty" pistol for? To somehow make-up for the iffy-ness of the round? None of these pistols has any "recoil" to speak of - it's a 9mm for christsake. The max size in an LE "duty gun" chambered in 9mm shouldn't exceed that of a G-19. If it does, you've just defined "inefficiency," at least as it relates to the concepts of weight and mass. Anyway, of the 3 choices listed, you're best off going with the Sig 226. Hulking, heavy, accurate, amenable to still-relatively-inexpensive 15-rd hi-caps, and quite reliable. Get it with Trijicons. The HKs are way too expensive for what you're getting, a big, hulking 9mm with a weird mag release placement. Yeah, it's popular with the mall ninjas and supposedly the first choice of special-forces types everywhere (or so the glossy PR pictures imply), but the money saved by getting the Sig can go to ammo, mags or whatever. The Berettas are accurate and good looking, but that slide thing still makes me nervous. Yeah, they say it got fixed, and on another thread it was made clear that the "FS" designation stands for "fixed slide" (allegedly by way of with a cross-pin stuck up in there somewhere, just in case), but I don't know. Just the image of all those military grunts having to duck and dodge that slide on recoil would make it hard for me to concentrate on hitting the bullseye.

March 20, 2002, 11:05 PM	#27
rysai Junior Member Join Date: February 10, 2002 Location: los angeles Posts: 13	sigfan, realized my post could be misunderstood, speaking of the bulkiness of the usp and not the weight so much...

March 21, 2002, 03:36 AM	#29
355sigfan Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2000 Posts: 1,388	The max size in an LE "duty gun" chambered in 9mm shouldn't exceed that of a G-19. If it does, you've just defined "inefficiency," at least as it relates to the concepts of weight and mass. END That’s an opinion one I would disagree with, as would most others. I am not a huge fan of the 9mm but I respect it with the right loads its very good. As for pistol size a duty gun should be full size. A Glock 19 is a poor duty gun size in my opinion. Why limit you sight radius, velocity, capacity and practical accuracy due to having a shorter sight radius when you could have a full size gun. A Glock 19 is a good ccw or plain clothes officer gun where concealment is an issue. I think the 34 is an even better choice as a duty gun in 9mm. PAT

March 21, 2002, 06:03 PM	#35
355sigfan Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2000 Posts: 1,388	agtman NYPD does not have a standard issue gun they can choose between the Glock, Sig and Smith. I understand your point but I prefer a duty sidearm to be full size. The only reason to make a firearm smaller is so its easier to conceal. A duty sidearm is not concealed when your a patrolman. PAT

February 15, 2005, 10:55 AM	#37
Moe Mentum Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2005 Posts: 158	I prefer the Beretta 92, I've had it for over 10 years, and its never failed yet.

February 15, 2005, 11:54 AM	#38
rauchman Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2001 Location: nj Posts: 186	Greetings, While I'm not LEO, I do own a 92FS, 226, and a USP45F. Any of the guns mentioned are excellent pistols. Someone mentioned that 9mm in guns of this size is inefficient. I respectfully disagree. I also have a G19 and a 225 and I always shoot the larger guns more accurately. I'm also faster on the follow up shots with a bigger pistol. Anyway, here are some of my observations. Beretta: Astethically my favorite ( very subjective) Grip is a little big ( Vertec fixes that) Trigger a little long and heavy (D model main spring reduces trigger weight) Have over 3k on this pistol and have never had any kind of hiccup. Sights are a little small Pistol is very accurate, but (being subjective again) I find it the hardest to be accurate on Sig: Easy to be accurate on Great ergos Great sights Don't like the placement of the slide release as I tend to ride it with my thumb Bought the pistol used and have put 2k on it without any hiccups. USP: (should preface this my saying I've only shot about 200 rounds on the 9mm variant) Very low recoil Easy to be accurate on with practice Great sights I prefer this style mag release Only gripe I have is that the mags are plastic and I've read some instances where the mags are more prone to break than the metal counterparts ( such as those found on the 45F and Compacts) Lots of people criticize the USP trigger, but I have found on my 45F that after 1k or so rounds, the trigger smoothes up nicely.

February 15, 2005, 12:00 PM	#39
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	This thread is three years old.

February 15, 2005, 12:33 PM	#40
IanS Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2000 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,632	Yeah, but it sounds like the same arguments we'd have this year.

February 15, 2005, 10:34 PM	#43
pdt1793db Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2005 Posts: 170	Personally I would go with the Sig first the Beretta second and the HK not at all I dont really like there grips there to boxy and there to exspensive for what they are. I think an all metal gun would serve you better than a polymer gun would considering you will carry it every day and will be subjected to harsher conditions than it would if you just took it to the range. I do agree with the thread on the Beretta Vertec but the Sig also dose not have a safty but just a decocking lever. Do what you want but thats my two cents

February 16, 2005, 12:09 AM	#44
kittyhawk Member Join Date: February 15, 2005 Location: Houston Texas Posts: 55	I have carried a Sig 226 as a cop for 4 years and and NEVER had a problem with it. Now I carry a Sig 229 in .357 for the last 3 years I am on my 4th gun due to shooting about 15,000 to 20,000 through each(we shoot a lot, well we use to), had the rear sight fall off during a quall. Id go with the Sig it will not let you down.