Hypothetical self defense situation.

[ChowYunFat]

Pick any modern metropolitan area. Let's assume that you find your self walking. Maybe your car broke down a bad neighborhood at 3am. Let's say 6 armed men decide to attack you because they believe you don't have a visa to be on their land. They all have pistols. Given that you are allowed to carry 3 magazines total. 1 is in your gun which you are carrying concealed. 2 mags are on your belt. The nearest safe area is 8 city blocks away.

So which gun would you want to be carrying?

A. 1911 .45 ACP 8+1 (25 total rounds)
B. .40 S&W 12+1 (37 total rounds)
C. 9mm 15+1 (46 total rounds)

For me it seems like common sense that you'd want option C because you can afford to miss and also still be able to defend yourself for almost twice as long as option A. I guess you'd have to be pretty damn good shot who's confident the pressure won't make them miss to choose option A.

I know that SWAT teams and military carry a 1911 .45 ACP... but they also have MP5s and M-16s. You don't have that luxury in this example.

Also if the bad guys all have 9mm pistols and they are carrying the same number of magazines. It would be 276 rounds vs your number of rounds. I seriously doubt anyone would want to stand and fight. So be realistic in your choice.

[Axion]

If 6 armed men attack and its 8 blocks till cover I really don't think it matters what you're carrying? Even if you had a FA AR-15 with 3 30 round mags I'm pretty sure you'd end up dead.

Another thing to consider: the more bullets you start wildly spraying off the more innocent people you're likely to hit.

[blume357]

but anyway. personally I'd prefer a 12 gage pump...but that's not the choice. So....

my choces in order. 45, 9mm then .40.

Contrary to what most think.. shoot slow with the 45...hit each bad guy once. If they don't hit you in between shots... you are clear after 6 shots and still have 3 rounds left in the gun.

I'm still of the belief that if you hit the biggest most hopped up crazed idiot with one 45acp center mass... they will stop.

[Mokumbear]

.45

I am sold...
One mag is all that's necessary. (OK, and then maybe run like heck)

BTW, I think the chances of being confronted by 6 armed people is fairly slim
for your average, honest citizen.

Also, I don't think there are a whole lot of innocent people in bad neighborhoods
out at 3AM.

I have switched over to the .45 team, this is where my preferences lie at the moment.
I just look at a 9mm or (gasp) .380 round and ask myself, "what were you thinking".

[Double Naught Spy]

So let me get this right. You are asking us to choose the most appropriate carry setup from your list of three that would be most useful for entering into an unexpected situation where we come up against a fixed number of guys who are all armed with 9mm handguns loaded with 15+1 rounds plus two spare 15 round mags (for a total of 276 rounds). Is that right?

Then you state that you doubt anyone would stand and fight and so you caution us to be realistic in our choice. Do I have this right?

First of all, since the situation is unexpected, then there is no way you can predetermine which gun/mag/ammo combo is the right one for the situation.

Your scenario has fallen into the fallacy of total situational awareness upon your encounter with the bad guys when you apparently didn't have it at any time prior to encountering them. If you had insight that you would be attacked by a definitive number of guys (6) all carrying the same pistol/mag/ammo combination, then obviously you would not allow yourself to be in that situation. Here, the reality is that you will absolutely never know for certain at the start of an event just how many bad guys are actually present, how well armed they are, how good they are, etc. Since you can't know this, then you can't knowingly pick the right gun/mag/ammo combo to be carrying that would be the best setup for some unknown situation that may or may not occur, ever.

The kicker is that you then suggest that none of us would stand and fight (I guess this is because we know ourselves to be so outgunned) so apparently what you are asking is which combination of gun/mag/ammo would we carry for being able to runaway best for 8 blocks to safety. If we aren't going to fight and are carrying, then you want to know what we would most like to have on our person for a long retreat?

You are correct in that many SWAT teams do carry 1911s, but also have long guns and imply that the SWAT teams make up for low capacity shortcoming of their 1911s with their long guns. What SWAT does or does not do isn't relevant. You also failed to note that SWAT operates in teams, is highly trained, wears body armor, and usually operates with some form of predetermined plan. So the SWAT comparison has zilch to do with the scenario.

You also seem to imply that a 1911 with its lower capacity would therefore be wrong for the 276 round, 6 bad guy, 6 gun situation. That would all really depend on all the other factors, would it not? These would be factors you don't know at the onset of the event. For example, just how good are the bad guys with their guns? How well have they maintained them? How many are going to actually stay and fight once the bullets start flying? How many are willing to chase you? A 1911 might be the absolute ideal gun for this situation, given you are such a skilled shot with it and its wonderful single action triiger, firing the large .45 acp bullets, and dropping the first two combatants with your first 2 shots.

So you are now against for bad guys who are seeking cover and unable to engage with a coordinated response as they are untrained thugs. Their shots are all over the place and you are left unscathed as you move to cover. Then, you now are able to slip into the darkness and to safety, performing a tactical reload where you retain your partial mag, still with 23 rounds left to travel the 8 blocks. Was the 1911 really a bad choice?

Where I am going with this is that you can throw out all sorts of unrealistic parameters for a scenario to guide the responses in a direction you think is best, but that doesn't mean there is any validity to the scenario given its unrealistic parameters. In the end, there is NO realistic choice for your scenario as your scenario is unrealistic.

[deadmarsh]

I would wish to have my daily carry weapon - a Para-Ordnance P16/40 converted to a 10mm. This gives me 16+1 in the handgun, plus two (2) 16 round spares...

Under your selection, I'd opt for thwe .45ACP, then the .40 S%W, followed by the 9mm...


Dead

[Duxman]

This is not the movies. As soon as you put down 1-2 of the BGs, most of whom are cowards.....the rest will cut and run.

You carry whichever weapon you are best with. If you practiced with the 9mm and are the best shot with the 9mm....carry that.

My personal preference is 40SW.

Remember what the Swiss general said the German general when the Germans threated the SwissWW2)

German: How many men can you muster up if Germany decides to invade Swisszerland?

Swiss: 1 million men.

German: What would you do if Germany sends an invading army of 2 million?

Swiss: Each man would shoot twice.

End of story.

[Ausserordeutlich]

Isn't it amusing that in our "magical thinking" we can never imagine that the bad guys might actually be as well-armed and competent as we, and that we might actually die in an armed confrontation?

The hypothetical is a grand example of "magical thinking!"

[joshua]

I would take the 45 in the 1911. That's what I usually have around if I have the feeling I may need a pistol. Funny is I also have the 5906 nearby and I have 5 mags for it with 10 rounds each. My 1911 with 25 rounds is plenty enough for 6 bad guys. Assuming I'm Steven Segal or Bruce Willis . josh

[Jehzsa]

[ChowYunFat]

So let me get this right. You are asking us to choose the most appropriate carry setup from your list of three that would be most useful for entering into an unexpected situation where we come up against a fixed number of guys who are all armed with 9mm handguns loaded with 15+1 rounds plus two spare 15 round mags (for a total of 276 rounds). Is that right?

Then you state that you doubt anyone would stand and fight and so you caution us to be realistic in our choice. Do I have this right?

You are absolutely correct. That is what I'm asking. I personally know of certain Chicago Police Department officers who simply WILL NOT pursue any suspects into certain buildings or neighborhoods. I think their decision is wise. If you think you would stand and fight in a hostile and unfamiliar territory surrounded by hostile people then you are much more courageous than I.

First of all, since the situation is unexpected, then there is no way you can predetermine which gun/mag/ammo combo is the right one for the situation.

Your scenario has fallen into the fallacy of total situational awareness upon your encounter with the bad guys when you apparently didn't have it at any time prior to encountering them. If you had insight that you would be attacked by a definitive number of guys (6) all carrying the same pistol/mag/ammo combination, then obviously you would not allow yourself to be in that situation. Here, the reality is that you will absolutely never know for certain at the start of an event just how many bad guys are actually present, how well armed they are, how good they are, etc. Since you can't know this, then you can't knowingly pick the right gun/mag/ammo combo to be carrying that would be the best setup for some unknown situation that may or may not occur, ever.

If you have to commute to work in downtown New York and you have to pass through the Bronx, then this situation is a pretty realistic one. Maybe you are working late one night and when you drive home, your car breaks down in the middle of the projects. It could happen. Some one COULD attack you right? Why else do people carry firearms if there's no way that this could every happen?

The kicker is that you then suggest that none of us would stand and fight (I guess this is because we know ourselves to be so outgunned) so apparently what you are asking is which combination of gun/mag/ammo would we carry for being able to runaway best for 8 blocks to safety. If we aren't going to fight and are carrying, then you want to know what we would most like to have on our person for a long retreat?

If you really think it's the best tactical decision to stand and fight by yourself against multiple opponents, then by all means go for it. Maybe you can knock off oponents as good as Rambo or James Bond or even me . I am not that confident.

You are correct in that many SWAT teams do carry 1911s, but also have long guns and imply that the SWAT teams make up for low capacity shortcoming of their 1911s with their long guns. What SWAT does or does not do isn't relevant. You also failed to note that SWAT operates in teams, is highly trained, wears body armor, and usually operates with some form of predetermined plan. So the SWAT comparison has zilch to do with the scenario.

Yes, perhaps you are right. The reason I brought it up is that I've heard a lot of people say "8 Shots is all you need. That's what SWAT uses.". This somehow implies that if SWAT chose the 1911, it must be the correct choice for CCW.

You also seem to imply that a 1911 with its lower capacity would therefore be wrong for the 276 round, 6 bad guy, 6 gun situation. That would all really depend on all the other factors, would it not? These would be factors you don't know at the onset of the event. For example, just how good are the bad guys with their guns? How well have they maintained them? How many are going to actually stay and fight once the bullets start flying? How many are willing to chase you? A 1911 might be the absolute ideal gun for this situation, given you are such a skilled shot with it and its wonderful single action triiger, firing the large .45 acp bullets, and dropping the first two combatants with your first 2 shots.

So you are now against for bad guys who are seeking cover and unable to engage with a coordinated response as they are untrained thugs. Their shots are all over the place and you are left unscathed as you move to cover. Then, you now are able to slip into the darkness and to safety, performing a tactical reload where you retain your partial mag, still with 23 rounds left to travel the 8 blocks. Was the 1911 really a bad choice?

You're right. There are too many variables. But let's just assume the worst case scenario. All oponents are as well trained as you.

Where I am going with this is that you can throw out all sorts of unrealistic parameters for a scenario to guide the responses in a direction you think is best, but that doesn't mean there is any validity to the scenario given its unrealistic parameters. In the end, there is NO realistic choice for your scenario as your scenario is unrealistic.

Aren't almost all IDPA scenarios unrealistic? How many times have you been attacked by more than 1 attacker armed with a pistol? Isn't the whole point of CCW is being prepared for the worst case scenario?

[ChowYunFat]

I would wish to have my daily carry weapon - a Para-Ordnance P16/40 converted to a 10mm. This gives me 16+1 in the handgun, plus two (2) 16 round spares...

Under your selection, I'd opt for thwe .45ACP, then the .40 S%W, followed by the 9mm...


Dead

I carry a P14-40. But I have experienced some FTFs with it. I really like the 1911 style, but I might switch to a Sig p229 if I can't figure out how to make the Para Ord more reliable.

[10 MickeyMouse]

Let's say 6 armed men decide to attack you because they believe you don't have a visa to be on their land. They all have pistols.

If they're intent on killing you, you're pretty much screwed. Odd's are heavily stacked against you in a 6 to 1 firefight, no matter what handgun and how many rounds you have.

If they are all grouped together and you have a machine gun or grenade launcher, you might fair OK.

[deadmarsh]

Chow:

That surprises me about your Para...mine, I must admit, is virtually failure-proof with any kind of magazine or bullet configuration. I would have to know what types of problems you are experiencing and I might be able to give you a start in the right direction...

I own a small gunsmith operation here in MN and have 35+ years working on all kinds of handguns, especially the long-favored varities as the High Power, CZ, Sigs, etc., and (of course) the 1911. One of my favorite conversions is the Para P16/40 S&W to a 10mm. Many customers, including myself, use this weapon as a daily carry and some in competition. My other favorites are building 6" 1911 target guns, .460 Rowland conversion, and a few others. They just make me and the customers smile a bit wider

If I can help, let me know...


Dead

[enikkor]

I know this is only a scenario, but not all can be solved by your choice of
caliber. If there are 6 of them and they intend to kill you, I don't care
what you have, you're dead, if they all have guns, unless you shoot
first, fast and hurt most of them. Seems, unlikely unless you're Jerry
Miculek!!!
Use your common sense, if you have a car trouble in a strange place,
call 911 and stay there! Load and bring out your pistol, for immediate use.
Heaven sake, don't go out there and walk 8 blocks where nobody knows
\where you are, and be confronted by 6 guys. With 6 guys, intended to kill
you, your chances are slim.

[hdawson228]

How many of the bad guys practice at the range two or three times a week?

[Glenn Bartley]

I would opt for the 9mm because of the additional rounds. Each round mentioned is good enough to do the job, but once the pucker factor sets in, you are likely to need more than one round per bad guy, maybe many more in a moving/running gunfight. More ammo is better to a point, as long as it is an effective round you are carrying.

[ChowYunFat]

How many of the bad guys practice at the range two or three times a week?

So your assumption is that anyone you will face is both incompetent with firearms and a bad marksman?

[ChowYunFat]

I know this is only a scenario, but not all can be solved by your choice of
caliber. If there are 6 of them and they intend to kill you, I don't care
what you have, you're dead, if they all have guns, unless you shoot
first, fast and hurt most of them. Seems, unlikely unless you're Jerry
Miculek!!!

Use your common sense, if you have a car trouble in a strange place,
call 911 and stay there! Load and bring out your pistol, for immediate use.
Heaven sake, don't go out there and walk 8 blocks where nobody knows
\where you are, and be confronted by 6 guys. With 6 guys, intended to kill
you, your chances are slim.

Ok.. but while you are waiting for the police... which gun and how much ammo do you want to wait in the car with?

What if you're just unlucky and happen to be in the neighborhood that even the cops don't want to go to?

[ChowYunFat]

my choces in order. 45, 9mm then .40.

Odd order of preference. Largest, smallest, middle? Can you please explain why you chose the rounds in this order?

[ChowYunFat]

Originally Posted by deadmarsh

Chow:

That surprises me about your Para...mine, I must admit, is virtually failure-proof with any kind of magazine or bullet configuration. I would have to know what types of problems you are experiencing and I might be able to give you a start in the right direction...

I own a small gunsmith operation here in MN and have 35+ years working on all kinds of handguns, especially the long-favored varities as the High Power, CZ, Sigs, etc., and (of course) the 1911. One of my favorite conversions is the Para P16/40 S&W to a 10mm. Many customers, including myself, use this weapon as a daily carry and some in competition. My other favorites are building 6" 1911 target guns, .460 Rowland conversion, and a few others. They just make me and the customers smile a bit wider

If I can help, let me know...


Dead

I found this picture on someone elses blog. I guess it's not just me. It happens on the 1st round or the last round.



Basically the bullet just get's wedged between the slide and the ramp.

Here's a picture of the exact same thing that happens to my bullets. There seems to be a nick like it get's caught on something. I think it's the edge between the ramp and the receiver.

[M1911]

If six armed me attack you, it doesn't matter what you are carrying. The difference between 9mm and 45 ACP isn't terribly important (and yes, I do carry 45). Either you hit something important or you don't.

Walker, Texas Ranger is Hollywood, not the real world. Six armed men against one and you'll be at the Pearly Gates if they have any competence at all.

[smince]

If you have to commute to work in downtown New York and you have to pass through the Bronx, then this situation is a pretty realistic one. Maybe you are working late one night and when you drive home, your car breaks down in the middle of the projects. It could happen. Some one COULD attack you right? Why else do people carry firearms if there's no way that this could every happen?

If you are in NYC, then you are screwed if you use your gun or if you don't!

(Unless maybe you have one of the two permits they issue)

[oldbillthundercheif]

Paint an exterminator-service logo on the side of one of these. 10 to 1 nobody would notice what it is. Pistols are for wimps.

[ChowYunFat]

I have one of those. It's in the trunk of my tank. I don't have a CCW permit for it though.