AR vs Bolt Action for target shooting in 223

Lunker · January 20, 2010, 10:35 AM

I have an AR-22 from Spike Tactical, so I would only need an upper if I went the AR route. On the other hand, I have an affinity for nice bolt action rifles (and I tend to blow through less ammo in them than in semi-autos).
What would you recommend I get to do some target shooting at ranges from 100 to 300 yards? Is the AR (if you get it in the right configuration of course) as accurate asa bolt action? I live in Jersey , so the gun would never have to do double duty as a hunting/varmint rifle (muzzleloader/bow/shotgun only). By the way, in the end I'll have both.

Thanks.

tINY · January 20, 2010, 01:27 PM

I would look for a bolt action first. I think that the AR15 uppers will continue to drop in price for a while. Right now, to get an upper that shoots as well as a Savage 10FP, plan on spending at least $600.

Of course, if you get a good deal - or see one you really like - then jump on the upper.

-tINY

4EVERM-14 · January 20, 2010, 04:34 PM

"Target Shooting" can cover a wide range of activities. Have you considered focusing on the actual use for the rifle. If it's Across the Course highpower competition the AR platform has taken over as the gun to use. F-Class shooting leans more towards the bolt action. In Bench Rest bolt guns rule. Semi-auto's win the action shooting games. For centerfire plinking either will be fine.
I use the AR for competition. Bolt guns for precision position shooting. I probably didn't answer your question but I hope I got you thinking about the fun of match shooting.
www.cjrpc.com/

Lunker · January 20, 2010, 04:54 PM

Thanks. My interest right now is just shooting at paper from 100-300 yards. In the future I may get interested in more formal shooting activities.

Ridge_Runner_5 · January 20, 2010, 05:42 PM

Bolt actions by nature are more accurate, due to the fact that there is no movement in the weapon because of the bolt moving during firing, and having fewer moving parts in general.

stubbicatt · January 20, 2010, 09:11 PM

Curmudgeonly commentary follows:

I remember when I first started out with gun stuff. The "black rifles" were not thought very highly of. The bolt actions, the lever actions, the rifles with wood on them were the highly sought after items.

To me they are still more "valuable" than the EBR.

I really like how the CZ bolt actioned rifles are put together, and how they fit me. I can shoot them pretty well for an old duffer.

Get what fits you and what you like.

G-Dub870 · January 20, 2010, 09:40 PM

It would be cheaper to buy a Savage 10FP for around $700. AR lowers are around $200 and a DPMS bull bbl upper will be around $600. You'll save $100 on the gun and possible more with shooting less ammo. Both are awesome for up to 500. My DPMS is a nail driver at 500 and the 10FP is too!

EnoughGUN · January 20, 2010, 10:08 PM

I read an article not long ago by a gun writer that did a lot of competition range shooting. The gist of it was although he is an experienced and pretty good shooter he and his several thousand dollar bench rest rifle got bested by a kid using a stock AR with off the shelf ammo. An AR can be a very accurate tool. I was in the market for a 300-600 yard range target rifle and was looking at a bolt action but ended up going with an AR. Same accuracy but no having to cycle the bolt between shots.

Funny part is at one point he turned to the kid next to him with the AR and asked what he was doing wrong and the kid after checking his target through the spotting scope replied "choosing the wrong hobby"

hagar · January 20, 2010, 10:25 PM

If you only intend to shoot prone off a bipod, get a heavy barrel flattop AR with a 1 in 8 twist and no front sight. If you plan on carrying it around, get a good bolt action rifle.

EnoughGUN · January 20, 2010, 10:30 PM

good idea. That is exactly what I have, a heavy barrel with brake and it weighs a ton! I sure as heck would not want to lug it around any length of time.

ISP 5353 · January 20, 2010, 10:33 PM

I am a lucky man, in that I own both. I have a very accurate 700 action chambered for .223. This gun is about .35 MOA at 100 off my bench rest with handloaded ammo. I read a book about accurate AR-15s called "Black Magic" and I wanted to try one. I paired a Bushmaster lower with a Jewel trigger installed, with a custom upper built by Frank White of "Compass Lake". This AR is an honest .25 MOA or less gun, with the right ammo off my bench rest. I was amazed! So, it is really up to you as to what you want. Well built guns with good barrels will shoot well regardless of the action type. I will say that my AR gets more range time just because it is so much fun to shoot.

popeyespappy · January 20, 2010, 10:47 PM

I’ve got a box stock Savage 12 long rang precision varminter single shot in 223. On a very good day it will put 3 into less than a half inch at 200 yards. I’ve also got a Stag 6L upper on a lower I built myself using a RRA parts kit with their 2 stage match trigger. On a very good day it will put 3 into less than a half inch at 100 yards. I’ve got about the same amount of money in both guns. In my opinion if you are buying an off the shelf rifle on a limited budget with the goal of shooting the smallest groups your best bet is going to be a bolt gun.

10-96 · January 21, 2010, 04:50 AM

I heard a RSO tell my friend who was shooting a 1903-A3 in a match that was heavily laden with AR's, "Lets all consider this guy for a moment... He can shoot that bolt gun as fast as he wants to. Everybody else has to wait on the action to cycle!" My friend had apparently spent quite a bit of time piddling around and found himself short on time in a prone string and went into an honestly amazing 'hurry up' mode. He did pretty darn good for all that matters as far as points- entertaining too.

Anyway, that was just a side story. I have both and like both- flip a coin.

Art Eatman · January 21, 2010, 12:48 PM

I have a Ruger 77 Mk II in .223 that's reliably half-MOA. No tweaks, no mods beyond a Timney trigger. 3x9x40 scope.

I had a Bushmaster Match Target with a 6x24x40 scope that was reliably half-MOA with almost any old ammo.

Factor in old age, trifocals, coffee and cigarettes. A young and healthy guy might well do better.

A good "targetized" AR will group pretty dog-goned tight. A run of the mill upper is doing pretty good to get one MOA.

TheManHimself · January 21, 2010, 02:15 PM

You get the same accuracy for less money with a bolt action rifle. The tradeoff is capacity and rate of fire.

If money is no object, you can make a direct-impingement AR just as accurate as a custom bolt gun, and have the detachable box magazines and semi-automatic action too. But it'll be expensive.

Slamfire · January 21, 2010, 05:39 PM

My space gun upper with a Krieger barrel is as accurate as any bolt rifle.

It does not have the one pound trigger my Anschutz has, but my Rock River two stage, tuned by White Oak Precision http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/ is excellent and I have shot many cleans out to 300 yards.

The AR platform is capable of extremely good accuracy.

Jim Watson · January 21, 2010, 06:18 PM

Yes, but it throws your prepped brass on the ground. At least mine does. I had a little shell deflector made so it lands right beside the gun, at least.

Bart B. · January 22, 2010, 01:10 AM

Ridge Runner states:

Quote:

Bolt actions by nature are more accurate, due to the fact that there is no movement in the weapon because of the bolt moving during firing, and having fewer moving parts in general.

That's true. But there is a tiny bit of barreled bolt actions whipping at very low frequencies while the bullet goes down the barrel.

That aside, it's remarkable that folks rebuilding the M1 and M14NM semiauto service rifles in 7.62 NATO for the military teams were able to make them shoot all day long inside 4 inches at 600 yards with really good commercial match ammo or handloads with new cases. With all those moving parts having to go back into the same position with the same pressure for each shot, 'tis a bit of mechanical magic that it happens. Nowadays, getting an AR15 or M16 to do that well is easy if you got the right parts and put 'em together properly.

stubbicatt · January 22, 2010, 07:49 AM

Get what you like and what fits you. I have a personal dislike of the AR series, just don't like them. Not that there is anything wrong with them, but I don't like them and I don't like fish either.

Pick up a few and see what fits you.

One nice thing about the ARs, if you get one at a good price you won't get hurt too badly when you go to sell it.

1911rocks · January 22, 2010, 08:29 AM

I have both a 10FP in .223 as well as a RRA Varmint. The RRA is a .25moa gun the 10FP is a .25MOA gun. I shoot the 10FP more than the AR. The reason; less reloading at the end of the day. When it comes to hunting it's the AR.

Having said all that here's some painful advice. Trigger and Scope. RRA has a very nice 2 stage trigger and the Varmint model comes Standard with one. The 10FP has the Accu-Trigger, very nice.

THE SCOPE!!! DON'T GET CHEAP. The old Varmint hunter rule was plan on spending at least as much on the Scope as you did the rifle. I use Nightforce. Yes, the cost is painful, until you go to the range or hunting. Leupold is good. In the less expensive realm I say Falcon Optics Menace (First Focal Plane Reticle) Here's a couple of sites with a great deal of long range shooting data.

http://snipersparadise.com/sniperchat/

http://www.snipercentral.com/index.phtml

darkgael · January 22, 2010, 09:59 AM

Quote:

THE SCOPE!!!

Scope? What scope?
Out to 600 yards.....irons will do. Save the $ and buy ammo.
Pete

G-Dub870 · January 24, 2010, 04:44 PM

Quote:

"Only hunting and mountain climbing are sports. The rest are just games."

You forgot about fishing to go along with hunting.

Lloyd Smale · January 24, 2010, 07:01 PM

my heavy barreled ars will shoot right along side of my heavy barreled bolt 223s anyday. It takes a very accurate bolt gun to do any better then a good ar.

Lunker · January 24, 2010, 08:39 PM

I ended up getting a good deal on a Rock River Varmint 24" in 223. I'll let you know when I'm putting holes in quarters at 200 yards.

A_Gamehog · February 3, 2010, 11:38 PM

They are very accurate Rifles and Very easy to load for, mine with a 1:9 twist shoots with a 24" Barrel, 1MOA with 34 grain Dogtowns, and Sub MOA with 68's and 75's. That's off a Bench with a custom rest.

By far and away my favorite Rifle now. No question..under $1,000.00

January 20, 2010, 10:35 AM	#1
Lunker Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2007 Location: Jersey Shore Posts: 240	AR vs Bolt Action for target shooting in 223 I have an AR-22 from Spike Tactical, so I would only need an upper if I went the AR route. On the other hand, I have an affinity for nice bolt action rifles (and I tend to blow through less ammo in them than in semi-autos). What would you recommend I get to do some target shooting at ranges from 100 to 300 yards? Is the AR (if you get it in the right configuration of course) as accurate asa bolt action? I live in Jersey , so the gun would never have to do double duty as a hunting/varmint rifle (muzzleloader/bow/shotgun only). By the way, in the end I'll have both. Thanks.

January 20, 2010, 10:08 PM	#8
EnoughGUN Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2009 Posts: 538	I read an article not long ago by a gun writer that did a lot of competition range shooting. The gist of it was although he is an experienced and pretty good shooter he and his several thousand dollar bench rest rifle got bested by a kid using a stock AR with off the shelf ammo. An AR can be a very accurate tool. I was in the market for a 300-600 yard range target rifle and was looking at a bolt action but ended up going with an AR. Same accuracy but no having to cycle the bolt between shots. Funny part is at one point he turned to the kid next to him with the AR and asked what he was doing wrong and the kid after checking his target through the spotting scope replied "choosing the wrong hobby" __________________ GLOCK Austrian for Lemming

January 20, 2010, 10:30 PM	#10
EnoughGUN Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2009 Posts: 538	good idea. That is exactly what I have, a heavy barrel with brake and it weighs a ton! I sure as heck would not want to lug it around any length of time. __________________ GLOCK Austrian for Lemming

January 21, 2010, 04:50 AM	#13
10-96 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Tx Panhandle Territory Posts: 4,160	I heard a RSO tell my friend who was shooting a 1903-A3 in a match that was heavily laden with AR's, "Lets all consider this guy for a moment... He can shoot that bolt gun as fast as he wants to. Everybody else has to wait on the action to cycle!" My friend had apparently spent quite a bit of time piddling around and found himself short on time in a prone string and went into an honestly amazing 'hurry up' mode. He did pretty darn good for all that matters as far as points- entertaining too. Anyway, that was just a side story. I have both and like both- flip a coin. __________________ Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day) I suspect a thing or two... because I've seen a thing or two.

February 3, 2010, 11:38 PM	#25
A_Gamehog Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2009 Location: Central Oregun Posts: 563	Don't let the Black guns fool you ! They are very accurate Rifles and Very easy to load for, mine with a 1:9 twist shoots with a 24" Barrel, 1MOA with 34 grain Dogtowns, and Sub MOA with 68's and 75's. That's off a Bench with a custom rest. By far and away my favorite Rifle now. No question..under $1,000.00

January 20, 2010, 01:27 PM	#2
tINY Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2005 Location: Orygun Posts: 2,589	I would look for a bolt action first. I think that the AR15 uppers will continue to drop in price for a while. Right now, to get an upper that shoots as well as a Savage 10FP, plan on spending at least $600. Of course, if you get a good deal - or see one you really like - then jump on the upper. -tINY

January 20, 2010, 04:34 PM	#3
4EVERM-14 Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2006 Location: Pennsy Posts: 720	"Target Shooting" can cover a wide range of activities. Have you considered focusing on the actual use for the rifle. If it's Across the Course highpower competition the AR platform has taken over as the gun to use. F-Class shooting leans more towards the bolt action. In Bench Rest bolt guns rule. Semi-auto's win the action shooting games. For centerfire plinking either will be fine. I use the AR for competition. Bolt guns for precision position shooting. I probably didn't answer your question but I hope I got you thinking about the fun of match shooting. www.cjrpc.com/

January 20, 2010, 04:54 PM	#4
Lunker Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2007 Location: Jersey Shore Posts: 240	Thanks. My interest right now is just shooting at paper from 100-300 yards. In the future I may get interested in more formal shooting activities.

January 20, 2010, 05:42 PM	#5
Ridge_Runner_5 Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2008 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,925	Bolt actions by nature are more accurate, due to the fact that there is no movement in the weapon because of the bolt moving during firing, and having fewer moving parts in general.

January 20, 2010, 09:11 PM	#6
stubbicatt Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Posts: 1,707	Curmudgeonly commentary follows: I remember when I first started out with gun stuff. The "black rifles" were not thought very highly of. The bolt actions, the lever actions, the rifles with wood on them were the highly sought after items. To me they are still more "valuable" than the EBR. I really like how the CZ bolt actioned rifles are put together, and how they fit me. I can shoot them pretty well for an old duffer. Get what fits you and what you like.

January 20, 2010, 09:40 PM	#7
G-Dub870 Member Join Date: February 9, 2009 Location: woodward oklahoma Posts: 32	It would be cheaper to buy a Savage 10FP for around $700. AR lowers are around $200 and a DPMS bull bbl upper will be around $600. You'll save $100 on the gun and possible more with shooting less ammo. Both are awesome for up to 500. My DPMS is a nail driver at 500 and the 10FP is too!

January 20, 2010, 10:25 PM	#9
hagar Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2000 Location: Colombia, SC Posts: 745	If you only intend to shoot prone off a bipod, get a heavy barrel flattop AR with a 1 in 8 twist and no front sight. If you plan on carrying it around, get a good bolt action rifle.

January 20, 2010, 10:33 PM	#11
ISP 5353 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2009 Location: Indiana Posts: 134	I am a lucky man, in that I own both. I have a very accurate 700 action chambered for .223. This gun is about .35 MOA at 100 off my bench rest with handloaded ammo. I read a book about accurate AR-15s called "Black Magic" and I wanted to try one. I paired a Bushmaster lower with a Jewel trigger installed, with a custom upper built by Frank White of "Compass Lake". This AR is an honest .25 MOA or less gun, with the right ammo off my bench rest. I was amazed! So, it is really up to you as to what you want. Well built guns with good barrels will shoot well regardless of the action type. I will say that my AR gets more range time just because it is so much fun to shoot.

January 20, 2010, 10:47 PM	#12
popeyespappy Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Posts: 337	I’ve got a box stock Savage 12 long rang precision varminter single shot in 223. On a very good day it will put 3 into less than a half inch at 200 yards. I’ve also got a Stag 6L upper on a lower I built myself using a RRA parts kit with their 2 stage match trigger. On a very good day it will put 3 into less than a half inch at 100 yards. I’ve got about the same amount of money in both guns. In my opinion if you are buying an off the shelf rifle on a limited budget with the goal of shooting the smallest groups your best bet is going to be a bolt gun.

January 21, 2010, 12:48 PM	#14
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	I have a Ruger 77 Mk II in .223 that's reliably half-MOA. No tweaks, no mods beyond a Timney trigger. 3x9x40 scope. I had a Bushmaster Match Target with a 6x24x40 scope that was reliably half-MOA with almost any old ammo. Factor in old age, trifocals, coffee and cigarettes. A young and healthy guy might well do better. A good "targetized" AR will group pretty dog-goned tight. A run of the mill upper is doing pretty good to get one MOA.

January 21, 2010, 02:15 PM	#15
TheManHimself Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2008 Posts: 730	You get the same accuracy for less money with a bolt action rifle. The tradeoff is capacity and rate of fire. If money is no object, you can make a direct-impingement AR just as accurate as a custom bolt gun, and have the detachable box magazines and semi-automatic action too. But it'll be expensive.

January 21, 2010, 05:39 PM	#16
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	My space gun upper with a Krieger barrel is as accurate as any bolt rifle. It does not have the one pound trigger my Anschutz has, but my Rock River two stage, tuned by White Oak Precision http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/ is excellent and I have shot many cleans out to 300 yards. The AR platform is capable of extremely good accuracy.

January 21, 2010, 06:18 PM	#17
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,599	Yes, but it throws your prepped brass on the ground. At least mine does. I had a little shell deflector made so it lands right beside the gun, at least.

January 22, 2010, 07:49 AM	#19
stubbicatt Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Posts: 1,707	Get what you like and what fits you. I have a personal dislike of the AR series, just don't like them. Not that there is anything wrong with them, but I don't like them and I don't like fish either. Pick up a few and see what fits you. One nice thing about the ARs, if you get one at a good price you won't get hurt too badly when you go to sell it.

January 22, 2010, 08:29 AM	#20
1911rocks Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2006 Posts: 424	I have both a 10FP in .223 as well as a RRA Varmint. The RRA is a .25moa gun the 10FP is a .25MOA gun. I shoot the 10FP more than the AR. The reason; less reloading at the end of the day. When it comes to hunting it's the AR. Having said all that here's some painful advice. Trigger and Scope. RRA has a very nice 2 stage trigger and the Varmint model comes Standard with one. The 10FP has the Accu-Trigger, very nice. THE SCOPE!!! DON'T GET CHEAP. The old Varmint hunter rule was plan on spending at least as much on the Scope as you did the rifle. I use Nightforce. Yes, the cost is painful, until you go to the range or hunting. Leupold is good. In the less expensive realm I say Falcon Optics Menace (First Focal Plane Reticle) Here's a couple of sites with a great deal of long range shooting data. http://snipersparadise.com/sniperchat/ http://www.snipercentral.com/index.phtml

January 24, 2010, 07:01 PM	#23
Lloyd Smale Junior member Join Date: February 11, 2005 Posts: 822	my heavy barreled ars will shoot right along side of my heavy barreled bolt 223s anyday. It takes a very accurate bolt gun to do any better then a good ar.

January 24, 2010, 08:39 PM	#24
Lunker Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2007 Location: Jersey Shore Posts: 240	I ended up getting a good deal on a Rock River Varmint 24" in 223. I'll let you know when I'm putting holes in quarters at 200 yards.