carrying w/o permit ... your view

[EOD Guy in VA]

First, some general responses …

I’m disappointed that so many of you are so vocal in your response to ignore a law you don’t agree with, but seem unwilling, or at least don’t emphasize, taking an active roll in changing the law you disagree with. If you’re not part of the solution, then perhaps you’re part of the problem. I hope you’re as vocal with your elected officials as you are in this forum.

Having defended this republic for 20 years, I’m also disappointed how many of you seem to have so little respect for its government. Democracy, even ours, isn’t a perfect form of government, but it’s still a pretty damn good system. I wish some of you could travel to some of the counties I’ve seen and watch their “system” in action … public beheadings and police flagrantly beating citizens in the streets. You’d feel a new appreciation for what we have here when your feet touch American soil again.

It bothers me when people selectively quote. The Second Amendment reads, “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.” Remember it’s “people” … we as a society … not every single person in that society. And this society, has decided some of us shouldn’t have that “right” … and I have no problem with that. We all know those who have no business possessing a firearm of any kind.

For TallPine …

Even for me, your scenario would cross the line and I’d have to join those of you who would ignore the law by “forgetting” to turn all of them in ... however, while still working to change the law back.

For youngun …

Again … I don’t hear any hint of action to change the law … only ignore it. I hope you’re as vocal to your elected officials.

As far as your not seeing the leap of logic expressed by the other writer … if you can’t see the gross lack of logic there, there’s no hope of me explaining it to you. Why does it have to be all or nothing? Why can’t both be available to the police? There’s a spectrum of violence and there should be a spectrum of response … for the police and for us.

Re your response to my response to GRD’s question A … I refer you again to my 1st general response above. Of course, everyone has a threshold that when crossed forces him resist, and even ignore a law … but those should be rare and well considered. That being said, I fully agree with you that there are too many laws and too little accepting responsibility for one’s own actions. I agree that there’s way to much looking for someone to blame versus looking in the mirror going on in the USA today.

Lastly … the “[...] however, situations where a person should disregard the law are few and far between.” quote you seemed to attribute to me was not mine.

For tyme …

I hope you don’t really think there should be no screening process keeping those who have no business with a CCW permit from getting one. If you don’t know anyone who fits that category, then you certainly have an exclusive list of exceptional acquaintances and neighbors. In my state, and most “shall issue” states, that’s the purpose of the permit. And just why should you get that permit at government expense with no charge for services rendered? Does that mean you object to paying for your driver’s license and hunting permit too? Does the state owe you those as freebees too?

For george miller …

You didn’t need to resort to a gun in either case, did you?. Less-than-lethal methods worked in both cases and you didn’t end up needing to hire a lawyer to get you out of a homicide case. The gun isn’t always the answer as some (not you) seem to feel it is. But you should have the right to get a CCW permit for those cases where you can’t escape/avoid … unfortunately in OH you don’t have that right yet … I hope your working to get a CCW law.

[westex]

I have carried for over 40 years. I have lived in four states, TX, CO, CA and MO. I have had a state issued permit in one state for 7 years. I have traveled and carried in about 24 states. I have had to take my firearm out of concealment in public one time and return it to concealment unfired. I feel perfectly content with my life so far and don't see any need to change my lifesyle in the future.

Draw your own conclusions from all that.

[EOD Guy in VA]

for george miller...

http://www.ohioccw.org/
Hope this helps you

[Leatherneck]

EOD Guy

Remember it’s “people” … we as a society … not every single person in that society.

ARE YOU SERIOUS? Yes Sir, it is every single one of us citizens of this Republic. TC

[youngun]

Seems it comes down to whether or not you believe there is such a thing as individual rights.
They are by definition inalienable.
Is our gov't here to secure these already- and ever- existent rights, or simply to provide "the greatest good for the greatest number?"
If the latter, then we must admit we are basically condoning human sacrifice.
A few must be sacrificed to the Utilitarian God in order to secure the majority.

-No.
Every one has a natural right to protect himself.
Do it!

[OF]

I'm sorry, EOD, you have a very strange grasp of individual liberty and the role of republican government in these United States. Specifically the difference between a constitutional republic and a democracy. The 'people' referred to in the amendment is indeed each individual citizen, not some amorphous un-definable democratic mob. When it says 'the right of the people' it's talking about you, specifically. And me. And your next door neighbor and everyone else, as individuals.

And this society, has decided some of us shouldn’t have that “right”

You see, this is the key. The 'society' or mob or majority or congress or president or king or whatever has no authority to 'decide' I can't 'keep and bear arms'. ZERO. How do I know that? The constitution tells me it is so. If the Constitution (aka. The Supreme Law) can be applied or ignored at the whim of legislators or the majority, then what good is it? What is the point? Why have a Bill of Rights? Why not a Bill of Suggestions? Or a 'Bill of Possible Privileges You, The Citizen, Can Enjoy If The Present Society Seems Fit To Empower You With Them'?

It doesn't work that way. You have the power and the right and the responsibility as an idividual citizen.

- Gabe

[notos&w]

Those of you who don’t want to read all of this can skip to para. 7. it sums up my position.
plainsman,
1) call it moral law, a natural right, whatever you wish. breaking a state or federal law just cause you dont like it or think it is unconst. is not "law abiding." resorting to natural law is a loser argument both politically and legally (notice i did not say morally - that is a different discussion entirely so please dont address that facet of my statement).
2) sorry if you are offended. one man's opinion. however, the logic of lobbying the state legislature to pass a law granting "law abiding citizens" CCW permits when they regularly commit a felony (at least in miss.) escapes me. perhaps you phrase your efforts differently. i will have to from now on; in the past, that has been one of the strongest arguments i could make.
3) along the lines of para. 1, justifying your actions based on what you believe the law originally meant is not the best route in my opinion. i agree the 2A grants an individual right that should be incorporated to the states by operation of the 14A and that being an indiv. right it is therefore a fundamental right and any law impinging on that right it must pass strict scrutiny. however, that is not what the law is. i do not feel free to disregard it just b/c i think its wrong. ex. the const. does not speak of a right to privacy or personal autonomy. the supreme court seems to think it does and a whole body of 4A law revolves around a reasonable expectation of privacy; this "right to privacy" is also the justification for the murder of unborn children. the whole theory is made up and it is just wrong. does that mean i am free to arrest abortionists or intrude on your expectation of privacy? i hope not. society must have laws and must follow them.
4) i might be alone in this, but i do not see the parallel b/w rosa parks, MLK Jr., or gandhi's open disobiedence and your carrying a gun concealed w/o legal authorization. i might remind you rosa and MLK spent some time in the slammer. if you are willing to do that, then the choice is yours. personally, i will not give up all i have worked for and put my family's well-being in jeopardy over a threat which may never happen. It being legal, i choose to carry. if it were illegal, id do something else. thats my choice.
5) quote: >we are committing no moral crime< see para. 1 and 3. "moral" or not, the inside of jail cell looks the same. your choice.
6) im not telling you or anyone what to do. im only giving my opinion for your consideration.
7) if carrying were illegal, id give it up. same w/ owning guns. Romans 13:1-2 says “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.” Romans 13:5 says “Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.” shadrach, meshach, and abednego told nebuchadnezzar, "if we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it." Daniel 3:17. God closed the mouth of lions for Daniel but the bones of his accusers, their wives and children were crushed before they hit the floor. if God ALLOWS something to happen to me, then it is part of His Holy plan and thats ok w/ me.
“The Lord is my light and my salvation – whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life – of whom shall I be afraid?” Psalm 27:1 “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28

[Oleg Volk]

"Law-abiding" is a deragatory term in my vocabulary. "Lawful" describes us better. We would not initiate harm to other persons and wish to live unmolested. In abiding by a law harms us or our families, then we ignore the law or follow it solely out of fear while trying to change it. Some laws are unimportant and we can abide by them without agreeing or rying to changes them...other laws (Nuremberg laws of 193os, for example) are so offensive that they must be ignored and all enforcers of them incapacitated, preferably permanently.

Wages of Sin is Death, says the Bible. Initiation of aggression against an innocent or subjugation of innocents to another's will by threat of violence are mortal sins by my reconing and should be dealt with accordingly. Infliction of laws that prohibit the means and practice of effective self-defense qualify as such sins.

[braindead0]

It appears that we've launched into a Religous debate. Backing up a position with religious references is basically useless. Perhaps I should counter every Biblical reference with a quote from the Satanic Bible? Makes as much sense.

[notos&w]

quote: Wages of Sin is Death, says the Bible.

im not sure that means exactly what your are using it to. (actually i am sure thats not what it means but dont want you to be too offended)

[Oleg Volk]

Yea, I know that I am "mis-quoting" -- but the sentiments I express remain valid sans the Bibilical support. Could you explain why you disagree with my views?

[OF]

And on that note, I believe we'll have to agree to disagree. If you promise not to turn me in, notos&w, I promise not to tell you when I'm carrying. Deal?

- Gabe

[Hemicuda]

Would I carry without a permit?

You can bet your bottom dollar that I would...

Have I?

Yes, many times in the years between 18 and 31, when I got my permit...

There were times when there was NO WAY I was gonna go to a place I needed to go, unless I was armed...

There werwe times when hunting was greatly improved when I had a handgun... and DIDN'T wanna open carry it in heavy rain or heavy swamp brush...

if they revolk the permits, I'll carry that way again!

Sorry, but these restrictive gun laws ARE unconstitutional... and I DO actively fight them... I also actively DISOBEY them...

In short, Been packin' for 14 years, had a permit for 1 year, and asssuming I make the american average for a male, 64 or so years old, I'll be packing for another 32 or so years! REGARDLESS of the written laws!

[The Plainsman]

My friend, I reckon we'll just have to agree to disagree. However, I would like to take issue with one point in your response.

"i agree the 2A grants an individual right..."

The 2nd amendment and the other amendments contained in the Bill of Rights (first ten amendments) do NOT grant ANYTHING!!! They simply acknowledge the natural law and prohibit it's infringement. In my mind, that's where the rub comes in. A lotta folks are stomping all over that Right and it's really p--s--g me off.

Rest assured, I put my time and money where my mouth is where change efforts are concerned. I didn't realize folks assumed that if you carry without CCW, you don't do anything to change the law. Not so!

[george miller]

i believe the 2nd ammendment was written to given each and every one of us certain freedoms and unalienable rights,isnt the reason that it was written was to give the colonists freedom from the nasty king?why make it more difficult than it is by picking it apart?the two times i was carjacked(or at least they tried..lol)i resorted to my options of trying to get away first but you can bet that if i couldnt get away and i had a gun,ida used it if i felt my life or the lives of any of my family were in grave danger.as for if i carry today..well..i plead the 5th ammendment!

[tyme]

notos&w,

I'm sorry, but it's people like you who might end up dragging this country kicking and screaming into another Civil War, and it's people like you who make me really frustrated with the Christian Right. The only way to avoid a civil war over a sufficiently important right is to rally enough people to flout the current regime that it gets changed (relatively) peacefully from within. People then start to elect to office some who disobey current law, and those people then try to get current law changed. It seems like you are trying to prevent that from happening. Feel free not to carry or own firearms illegally yourself, but don't think for a second you're doing the right thing by telling others they're not "law abiding."

You'd probably walk up to Rosa Parks as she was being arrested to tell her she was giving Blacks a bad image.

[QuadOughtBuck]

"7) if carrying were illegal, id give it up. same w/ owning guns. Romans 13:1-2 says “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.”"

ROFLMAO!!!! I havn't heard anyone from this century seriously argue for the divine right of Kings. LOL!! though it was quite big in the 12th, 13th, etc centuries.

I have this question for you, since Hitler was the governing authority that means that you would have submited yourself to him because God placed him in there, right? LOL, you crack me up.

[Green Republican]

Wonder if I can chime in one more time:
Just returned from my first PTA Meeting with the big girl now in Kindergarten. There were flags everywhere - hundreds of them. All of the parents (hundreds of them) stood up and recited the Pledge of Allegiance. I was surrounded by sheeple. I've never seen anything like it - I can spot them a mile away.
So my point is that our only hope is to lead by example. I'm very well known in the community as a "gun dude" and even better known as up there with the best of dads. There are lots of good dads and I'm one of them. State your case and do so often. Also, be a role model in every other area of personal, professional and community life.
Sometimes we're looked at as if we're some freak that lives in a van by the river. Not so at all. Be respectful of others' opinions while clearly stating yours. If push comes to shove as it has in recent history those who follow, follow, follow without thought may be the next generation of people walking into the gas chambers only to claw away the concrete when it's too late.
So, in summary: today and yesterday I've made a conscious decision to be lawful. I will not carry a firearm until it's lawful to do so. If all hell breaks loose I'll be ready and at that time the law might not matter. In the mean time I urge all who might do me, my family or friends harm to choose another victim. By the time that your brain tells your finger to pull the trigger my knife will be in your throat and I will not stop until your being has passed through the Gates of Hell.
By the way, this is the best thread that I've ever seen.

[QuadOughtBuck]

"...follow without thought may be the next generation of people walking into the gas chambers only to claw away the concrete when it's too late.
So, in summary: today and yesterday I've made a conscious decision to be lawful."

My friend, you just made a major contradiction there. Also you say that you will follow the laws...until you decide not to (as in confiscation)? Strange. Why only follow certain unjust laws and not others? Liberty is at stake in each case.

[Blackhawk]

It's easier to get forgiveness than permission in some states.

Now, just when would you NEED forgiveness? Seems like only if you were discovered illegally packing. But how would that come about? Seems like that would be due to your being careless or needing the gun. If you needed the gun, forgiveness should be the logical outcome.

If you were careless.... Well, don't be careless.

[EOD Guy in VA]

For Leatherneck …

I think you missed my point, or you’ll be the one signing John Hinckley’s CCW permit when he gets out. Hope not.


To all …

Although many of us disagree on this issue, what’s really great is that we can disagree … and do it in an open forum where no one can stop us from doing so. It makes me very proud to live in this country.

[Green Republican]

OK - my last chime. QuadOughtBuck:
I can't argue with you because you're right. I could not carry in good conscious knowing that if, for some reason, be it some wierd search or something that I'll lose my right to own firearms and/or worse. Many of the lawmakers and people of my state are insane (for now). I don't understand their rationale, but I do live here so I must comply, move or do my best to open others' eyes. For some reason, though, Cooper Medical Center in Camden, NJ treats lots of gunshot wounds.
Maybe I don't make sense, but as I've implied before - come at me with deadly intent and you'll wish I had a firearm.

[Waterdog]

It's seems to be quite clear, that many feel the need to obey every little code, ordinance and psuedo law the bureacracy wants to impose upon the citizen.

And those same people wish to point out to me and others who choose to carry concealed with out permmision, that we are breaking the law, and that we are not upstanding contributing members of our republic.

Let me ask those who are pointing their righteous fingers a question.

Have you ever put false or misleading information on your FEDERAL income tax form?

Oh! Oh!, now we are on the same plane. HUH?

Waterdog

[Green Republican]

Alright - One last'in:
Just to make sure that the last post didn't refer to me - I don't disagree with anyone (who's otherwise law-abiding) who chooses to break the law on this issue. I just choose not to. And, in all honesty, my accountant has strict guidelines to not fudge one penny on my taxes. Damn, I think I may be a sheeple. I may be stupid, but you can trust the hell out of me. I'm lovable too. I'll be your dog.

[notos&w]

last one for me too.

EOD, ill second those sentiments. freedom is speech and assembly are great things and we are truly blessed to live in America. GOD BLESS HER.

thanks to all who wrote in. i dont know if anyone's mind was changed b/c of what was written but im certain that the thought provoked by each other has done each of us good.

anklepocket- "The Lord detess lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful." Proverbs 12:22.
I seriously doubt you are a sheeple. BTW, stay away from me w/ that knife