"On Killing" by Dave Grossman - Page 2

ISP2605 · February 8, 2006, 11:13 PM

At the last gun show a guy was selling a M-16 bandoleer with stripper clips and a spoon for $9. No ammo, just the bandoleer, clips, and spoon. $9!!!! Can you believe it?!?!? When I think of all the $9s I threw away I could have retired a multi-billionaire and have Bill Gates as my pool boy.

riverrat66 · February 8, 2006, 11:25 PM

Quote:

M-16 bandoleer with stripper clips and a spoon for $9.

Yipes

I'm a rich man because I've got a [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] load of them in my basement that I bought years ago when I bought my AR-15. I've got a whole bunch for my M1A1 also.

And to think my wife asked me what I was gonna do with all that "junk".

Sorry for hijacking this thread.

Jim Shugart · February 9, 2006, 08:56 AM

Quote:

I wonder if that round count included all the rds run thru the mini-guns, door mounted M-60s, and rds coming from aircraft.

And a lot of it was suppressing fire--keeping them pinned down until Artillery/Air Force/Gun ships could ruin their day.

riverrat66 · February 9, 2006, 12:53 PM

This is a quote from a guy from another thread who in my opinion does not have the "mindset" and has no business carrying a firearm. It's people like this who are shot with their own handgun! In New York State it is indeed illegal to point a firearm at someone to try to scare them or for intimidation purposes. You point that gun at someone you damn well better ready to pull the trigger!

Quote:

Understood, however, I probably would have drawn my weapon and told him to drop the knife and lay on the ground while I contacted the police. If he proceeded to run I would have used force (other than my gun) to take him down and keep him down until the police arrived.

You don't have to actually use the gun, but you can certainly use it for intimidation.

okiejack · February 9, 2006, 12:54 PM

If I'm not mistaken only 10 to 15% return fire during the initial engagement of a totally green unit. After the first firefight the percentage returning fire goes up.

deadin · February 9, 2006, 03:32 PM

okiejack,
That I can believe!

Dean

Twycross · February 9, 2006, 06:01 PM

Can you support that? I'd like to think that's the case, but IIRC the stats Grossman quoted were from experienced vets returning from their tours.

rugerdude · February 9, 2006, 06:15 PM

I loved the book, great read.

However, it will do nothing to help with CC, because it has nothing to do with CC.

It is a very interesting book though, and what I found particularly neat was how the things stated in the book matched up with things I read in books where Marines recounted their experiences in Vietnam.

Me being 15, I didn't really like the last part, but I will say that the things stated in that section do make sense.

deadin · February 9, 2006, 06:32 PM

I would imagine it would depend on how the question was phrased. i.e. "Did you ever"...... or "Did you always"...

Dean

JR47 · February 9, 2006, 07:17 PM

riverrat66, out of Nha Bhe? I operated in the Rung Sat 5/66-4/69.

I'm always a little concerned when you begin to get these low percentages. I know a lot of combat vets from WWII, as my dad is one. many of these men will also tell you that they "didn't do anything", even the ones with Silver Stars. Reticence about shooting and killing is prevalent in a lot of veterans. If telling them what you thought would end your interview was that you never fired a shot, a lot of these men would have done so.

I'd also like to mention that air crews, truck drivers, and others who were in combat, but weren't tasked with closing with the enemy, could skew the rates.

Until recently, the military mind set on killing was absorbed into the populace not by movies and television, but by men who were drafted, or volunteered for service, even during peacetime.

WhyteP38 · February 9, 2006, 10:42 PM

As others have already pointed out, Grossman's book is not directly about CC. However, like a lot of books on shooting, there are areas of overlap that you can apply to CC, such as mindset (which has already been mentioned numerous times in this thread). For a bit of a reality check on what people really do when it comes to shooting another person, as opposed to those who brag about what they'll do, the book is a worthwhile read.

In a similar vein, back in the early 80s people were concerned about the effects of pornography. The studies I read agreed that while porn did not increase the numbers or percentages of sexual assaults, it did tend to desensitize people to women who were sexually assaulted. When I began to look at truly violent movies--and subsequently when violent video games first came out--I suspected the same mechanism would be at work. From the studies I've read, and the info in Grossman's book, that seems to be true too, only this time in the realm of violence.

I got the impression that Grossman's percentages for combat shootings and for the impact of violent video games is slightly skewed to make his case seem stronger. Still, I think his case is pretty strong even without the skewing. Without further evidence to the contrary, I suspect he's much more correct than incorrect.

So for a big picture view, of which CC is just a tiny part, I consider his book worth reading. CC directly, no. CC indirectly, yes.

jrklaus · February 16, 2006, 09:38 PM

I've heard LTC Grossman speak in person as well. He is a great speaker. The book is not about CCW, as many here have already noted. You should read it anyway. You'll find it informative and thought-provoking in ways that may have nothing directly to do with CCW, but worthwhile nonetheless.

Glenn E. Meyer · February 19, 2006, 11:24 AM

Both books are worth the read as part of being a serious student of the art.

Some other good scholarly books are by Klinger (an ex-cop, now academic) about shooting incidents. Deadly Force Encounters (Arhwold and Christensen), CopShock (duh on the author) - all are to the point about the use of deadly force and relevant to the ccw type as well as law types.

Al Norris · February 19, 2006, 04:25 PM

Fifty-One Thousand rounds per KIA... I've heard from several different sources that this was an average of all small arms fire, regardless of the platform doing the firing.

I know a few people that carry, other than myself. In talking with some of them, I've noticed a sincere desire to prepare themselves for that fateful day. Others don't seem to have a clue.

riverrat66 and ISP2605 have it exactly right, in my opinion. Until you've been there, you won't know what you'll do. Each and every encounter will be different, but you can count on prior experience to help you through the next.

For most that carry, you will likely as not, never have to pull your firearm. It seems to me though, that if you carry, wouldn't you want to be as prepared as you can get? Mindset, is probably the toughest to prepare for, without actually receiving the T-shirt.

Warrior mentality is what some call it. It can be trained for. You won't know you have it until you've won that T-shirt. If Grossman's book can help to contribute to that mindset, then its value is more than all the money you will ever make. It has directly contributed to your carry.

I want to reiterate one thing riverrat wrote: "There is a huge difference between carrying a firearm and being prepared to use it." Being prepared is the difference between being frozen in one spot or stopping the attack. Being prepared is the difference between putting holes in a guy or killing him.

That last part bares repeating. While we all say that we will shoot only to stop the attack, as it is the politically correct and legal thing to say... What we are really talking about is shooting to kill. Shooting to kill as quickly as we can. Shooting to kill before we end up dead.

If you can't or won't wrap your mind around that one basic idea, then get rid of that gun, cause it will do more harm than good.

Glenn E. Meyer · February 19, 2006, 06:12 PM

I went to Barnes and Noble today because the freezing rain this morning, made me NOT go to a shotgun gig that was pretty far away!! BAH!

Anyway, Handguns had a nice article by Walter Rauch analyzing the mall shooting where the civilian CCW type got shot and probably paralyzed because he couldn't do the deed. It dovetails exactly with what Antipitas and other said.

Great points, above!!

February 9, 2006, 12:54 PM	#30
okiejack Member Join Date: December 26, 2005 Location: SEOklahoma Posts: 78	10 to 15% During Their First Firefight. If I'm not mistaken only 10 to 15% return fire during the initial engagement of a totally green unit. After the first firefight the percentage returning fire goes up.

February 9, 2006, 06:01 PM	#32
Twycross Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 1,187	Can you support that? I'd like to think that's the case, but IIRC the stats Grossman quoted were from experienced vets returning from their tours. __________________ The test of character is not 'hanging in' when you expect light at the end of the tunnel, but performance of duty, and persistence of example when you know no light is coming. - Vice Admiral James Stockdale, USN (ret.)

February 9, 2006, 06:15 PM	#33
rugerdude Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2004 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma Posts: 1,443	I loved the book, great read. However, it will do nothing to help with CC, because it has nothing to do with CC. It is a very interesting book though, and what I found particularly neat was how the things stated in the book matched up with things I read in books where Marines recounted their experiences in Vietnam. Me being 15, I didn't really like the last part, but I will say that the things stated in that section do make sense. __________________ "The SKS is a rifle, made the way they should be, out of a heavy block of crappy commie steel, set in an inletted semi-reshaped 2x4." Not my quote but I agree completely.

February 19, 2006, 11:24 AM	#38
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Both books are worth the read as part of being a serious student of the art. Some other good scholarly books are by Klinger (an ex-cop, now academic) about shooting incidents. Deadly Force Encounters (Arhwold and Christensen), CopShock (duh on the author) - all are to the point about the use of deadly force and relevant to the ccw type as well as law types. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

February 19, 2006, 06:12 PM	#40
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I went to Barnes and Noble today because the freezing rain this morning, made me NOT go to a shotgun gig that was pretty far away!! BAH! Anyway, Handguns had a nice article by Walter Rauch analyzing the mall shooting where the civilian CCW type got shot and probably paralyzed because he couldn't do the deed. It dovetails exactly with what Antipitas and other said. Great points, above!! __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

February 8, 2006, 11:13 PM	#26
ISP2605 Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Posts: 954	At the last gun show a guy was selling a M-16 bandoleer with stripper clips and a spoon for $9. No ammo, just the bandoleer, clips, and spoon. $9!!!! Can you believe it?!?!? When I think of all the $9s I threw away I could have retired a multi-billionaire and have Bill Gates as my pool boy.

February 9, 2006, 03:32 PM	#31
deadin Junior member Join Date: September 6, 2005 Location: Ocean Shores, WA Posts: 1,052	okiejack, That I can believe! Dean

February 9, 2006, 06:32 PM	#34
deadin Junior member Join Date: September 6, 2005 Location: Ocean Shores, WA Posts: 1,052	I would imagine it would depend on how the question was phrased. i.e. "Did you ever"...... or "Did you always"... Dean

February 9, 2006, 07:17 PM	#35
JR47 Junior member Join Date: August 9, 2005 Location: North Georgia Posts: 2,228	riverrat66, out of Nha Bhe? I operated in the Rung Sat 5/66-4/69. I'm always a little concerned when you begin to get these low percentages. I know a lot of combat vets from WWII, as my dad is one. many of these men will also tell you that they "didn't do anything", even the ones with Silver Stars. Reticence about shooting and killing is prevalent in a lot of veterans. If telling them what you thought would end your interview was that you never fired a shot, a lot of these men would have done so. I'd also like to mention that air crews, truck drivers, and others who were in combat, but weren't tasked with closing with the enemy, could skew the rates. Until recently, the military mind set on killing was absorbed into the populace not by movies and television, but by men who were drafted, or volunteered for service, even during peacetime.

February 9, 2006, 10:42 PM	#36
WhyteP38 Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2005 Location: Behind a keyboard. Posts: 1,565	As others have already pointed out, Grossman's book is not directly about CC. However, like a lot of books on shooting, there are areas of overlap that you can apply to CC, such as mindset (which has already been mentioned numerous times in this thread). For a bit of a reality check on what people really do when it comes to shooting another person, as opposed to those who brag about what they'll do, the book is a worthwhile read. In a similar vein, back in the early 80s people were concerned about the effects of pornography. The studies I read agreed that while porn did not increase the numbers or percentages of sexual assaults, it did tend to desensitize people to women who were sexually assaulted. When I began to look at truly violent movies--and subsequently when violent video games first came out--I suspected the same mechanism would be at work. From the studies I've read, and the info in Grossman's book, that seems to be true too, only this time in the realm of violence. I got the impression that Grossman's percentages for combat shootings and for the impact of violent video games is slightly skewed to make his case seem stronger. Still, I think his case is pretty strong even without the skewing. Without further evidence to the contrary, I suspect he's much more correct than incorrect. So for a big picture view, of which CC is just a tiny part, I consider his book worth reading. CC directly, no. CC indirectly, yes.

February 16, 2006, 09:38 PM	#37
jrklaus Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 520	I've heard LTC Grossman speak in person as well. He is a great speaker. The book is not about CCW, as many here have already noted. You should read it anyway. You'll find it informative and thought-provoking in ways that may have nothing directly to do with CCW, but worthwhile nonetheless.

February 19, 2006, 04:25 PM	#39
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	Fifty-One Thousand rounds per KIA... I've heard from several different sources that this was an average of all small arms fire, regardless of the platform doing the firing. I know a few people that carry, other than myself. In talking with some of them, I've noticed a sincere desire to prepare themselves for that fateful day. Others don't seem to have a clue. riverrat66 and ISP2605 have it exactly right, in my opinion. Until you've been there, you won't know what you'll do. Each and every encounter will be different, but you can count on prior experience to help you through the next. For most that carry, you will likely as not, never have to pull your firearm. It seems to me though, that if you carry, wouldn't you want to be as prepared as you can get? Mindset, is probably the toughest to prepare for, without actually receiving the T-shirt. Warrior mentality is what some call it. It can be trained for. You won't know you have it until you've won that T-shirt. If Grossman's book can help to contribute to that mindset, then its value is more than all the money you will ever make. It has directly contributed to your carry. I want to reiterate one thing riverrat wrote: "There is a huge difference between carrying a firearm and being prepared to use it." Being prepared is the difference between being frozen in one spot or stopping the attack. Being prepared is the difference between putting holes in a guy or killing him. That last part bares repeating. While we all say that we will shoot only to stop the attack, as it is the politically correct and legal thing to say... What we are really talking about is shooting to kill. Shooting to kill as quickly as we can. Shooting to kill before we end up dead. If you can't or won't wrap your mind around that one basic idea, then get rid of that gun, cause it will do more harm than good.