The Government Control of Deadly Portable Weapons 2nd Try: How Much is enough???

[striderteen]

Thanks.

[AgentOrange]

Smoker,

I knew you were a fraud. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. The fact that you don't know the hand signals is the clincher. By exchange regulation ALL members , traders, brokers, market makers, clerks in options anf futures MUST KNOW the hand signals. You are not allowed to trade on the floor of the Exchange (any exchange in Chicago) without this knowledge. ALL prospective traders, clerks, brokers, market makers, et al are REQUIRED TO TAKE A WRITTEN TEST TO PROVE THEIR EFFICIENCY AT HAND SIGNALS. That goes for CRT also. CRT would never hire a trader, broker, market maker or clerk that didn't know their signals. And you never forget the signals either.

TFL'ers, take my word for it, as God is my witness, as sure as water is wet, as sure as fire burns, Smoker is a fraud!

BTW EVERYBODY knows who Tom Baldwin and Charlie DiFrancesca are (where is Charlie D now?). The two BIGGEST floor traders at the CBOT. That is widely available public information. I asked you who were the biggest traders in your market at the MERC... ! You do know the Merc, don't you? You worked there for several years (allegedly HA HAH HA!).

Who did Tom Baldwin stand next to in the pit? What famous altercation did he have with this guy in the mid '80's?

You worked at CRT in the 1980's (deliberately vague) and you don't know hand signals? GET REAL!!! A market maker would know everthing about his market. WHICH MARKET DID YOU TRADE? There are many. Market Makers have a single market that they make markets for. You don't know who was Chairman? That's an easy one (publicly available).

What is scamming?
What is a ginzie?
What is a cannonball?
What info does an empty trading card have?
If you bought ten deece 95 Eurodollar option calls from the REFCO broker at a dollar ten what would you write on your trading card or order slip? You would know this as a "market maker".

Floor traders do not use the term "market maker." That is more of a CBOE- NYSE term. We all make markets when we offer and bid at the same time.

Keep changing your story and keep burying yourself.

Successful traders do not leave a place like CRT, to go yell on a phone. It was just too damn lucrative. (CRT, Charlie D., Tom Baldwin, were famous in the 1980's, it seems like Smoker is sourceing a Chicago futures market book from the 1980's. There are many such books, but he lacks details only known to actual market participants.)

BTW, this is the TWENTY FIRST CENTURY. We don't yell into phones any more (at least in Chicago, only in the pit). We click a mouse. You should upgrade your trading system to late twentieth century standards.

You are clearly a fraud Smoker-Boy.

I know you are a fake, but I post these extra questions for my amusement and entertainment. I'd like to see how far you go with this charade.

[ahenry]

Well I see you have run out of ideas and are now trying to personal attack route. I guess asking you to read the thread before blundering on and accusing me of being an oil engineer was too much to ask.

Not at all Smoker, I still have a post discussing this argument that you refused to comment on. If you don’t want to debate my argument so be it. I thought (and still do) that there was sufficient justification to warrant a comment on the possibility that you aren’t what you claim to be. Goes to credibility, an important issue. I will again state that I have read every single word you have written in the thread. You did state that you were an oil engineer. I can only take you at your word and your word doesn’t hold much water when you claim to be something and then try to weasel out of it though creative editing. I apologize for my mistaken interpretation. I stand corrected.

Not everyone on the planet chooses to live in their hometown, state, country etc. For me an interesting passport is life. Also maybe reading the whole thread and trying to come up with a logic argument on the thread topic would make better sense than doing the personal attack route.

As I stated, I am still waiting for you to respond to my argument. Perhaps if you read the entire thread and dealt with the arguments presented rather than fixating on some emotional fear we could actually get somewhere.

Well, your knowledge isn't the BEST is it? Tell me Ahenry how did you get New York to Malaysia? Don't you own an Atlas? Malaysia is just south of me here in Phuket and NY is a city in your country (America) on the East Coast.

I know where Malaysia is and I know where New York is. I found it odd that you would be trading on the floor of an exchange in Malaysia while living in New York (hence part of the skepticism as to your accomplishments), but I wasn’t the one that said I was trading on the COMMEX while living in New York. Apparently now though you didn’t trade on the floor of the COMMEX, but on the floor of the COMEX (which is a general term for a commodities exchange) in New York (i.e. the New York Mercantile Exchange). I don’t follow international financial markets, so I could be incorrect but I had thought that the COMMEX merged with the Kalhula (sp) Lampur Exchange or it used to be the Kalhula (sp) Lampur and now its the COMMEX or something along those lines. As I stated, I knew I was on shaky ground so I did a quick internet search to see if it substantiate what I thought (here is a link to the results... http://www.google.com/search?q=commex+%2Bexchange&hl=en ) Indeed it did. Please note that you used two M’s in your previous spellings of “COMMEX” which is completely different than the use of one M as in the “COMEX” (as in COMmodities EXchange, or COMmerce EXchange) which is what you are now using. The former is a Malaysian exchange. Please make up your mind as to which one you worked at.

These are all the same profession and not "a wide range of skills". What I do is trade financial derivatives using primarily technical analysis. Yelling on the floor in NY & Chicago, then yelling into a phone in Europe and then yelling into a phone in Dubai for the Al-Maktoum family (the race horse people; you know Dubai World Cup, world's richest horse race) is all just trading.

Again as to the credibility of my statement, you had claimed to be an oil engineer (mistakenly typed apparently), a trader of the floor of two separate exchanges (mistakenly typed as an exchange in another part of the world), and a financial planner for a Royal family. Those are indeed diverse fields. Financial Planning is not the same as engineering and it is not the same as trading stocks and commodities (although it can entail selecting what stocks and commodities you might wish to purchase). Perhaps you again mistakenly typed that you “managed” a royal family’s money, and meant to say you were their broker.

Now let me use my psychic power to make some outlandish guesses about you. Let's see, for number one I'm sure you never miss an episode of the X-files.

Hopefully you didn’t use your “psychic power” to select what to do with the money of the Royal Family you managed. Otherwise I think you would be running for your life. I find the x-files to be a really dumb show and can count on my fingers the number of times I have watched it.

[TheBluesMan]

AgentOrange - Unfortunately you have chosen to block email and personal messages and so I have no choice except to respond to you publicly.

Please refer to rule 3 of the forum policies: No spamming, trolling, flaming or other personal attacks, be they acrimonious or veiled in humor... Calling Smoker a ______ qualifies as a personal attack. Edit it now, please. Smoker is a member of The Firing Line and will be afforded the same courtesy as any other member.

BTW, trying to disprove that Smoker worked in Chicago as a trader seems to be a tad pointless. Even if you win that tangental confrontation, what does it have to do with Smoker's opinions on governmental control of weapons?

[AgentOrange]

Sorry Blues Man,

I have edited my post. You have a valid point about the Chicago Mercantile Exchange tangential topic. I just wanted to flesh out for other members that this guy was grossly embellishing or creating his accomplishments from whole cloth. I thought it was important to TFL'ers to know that this guy is a fraud. It may be hard to relate to non "traders" what the truth is but I'm willing to try. (I suppose most guys know this already, since Smoker has yet to convince even one person. But he keeps trying like Sisyphus).

Perhaps it would be better to ignore this guy.

As an aside, I learned my floor trading techniques from Charlie D. A truly generous man and one of the top three floor traders of all time. This guy at his peak (mid to late eighties) made over 10 million per year (10 million+ during the week of the stock market crash of Oct. 1987. He went limit long bonds and notes). I only wish I had a small fraction of Charlie D.'s trading ability. Unfortunately Charlie D. passed away from cancer over ten years ago. Rest in Peace.

P.S. I won't post again unless Smoker makes the mistake of erroneously answering my questions about his time at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. BTW, you got one of the jacket colors right !(too bad the other was wrong)! Good Guess!

One last thing, Smoker, beware of blanket terms like EVERYONE has guns in such and such a country. That is not true of any nation on earth. If you have evidence that EVERYONE in Yemen or Iraq, or Cambodia or Afghanistan or anywhere else has guns please post your source (hint: it doesn't exist)

And an admission of error on my part. You are correct about Saddam smuggling oil from Basra, Smoker, I knew that but I made my comments too brief on that topic. What I should have said was the majority Shiites of Southeastern Iraq recevie support from Iran but they do NOT control Basra.

Hopefully this is over and out. I was only here researching M14/M1A rifles and got sidetracked to this mess. This posting stuff takes WAY too much time. I prefer my social life.

P.P.S Sorry, just one more thing. Smoker, the CME, the CBOT and the CBOE have entered a partnership to offer single stock futures trading ONLINE. The exchanges are looking for actual DESIGNATED MARKET MAKERS for single stock futures. You could be the market maker for IBM or Intel or Microsoft or GE! This program is available for FCM's and qualified independents. The capital requirements are not yet known but I expect minimum capital requirements of about 1 million dollars. You would also have to ALWAYS and constantly provide a bid and offer (during designated market hours) on IBM futures and the different contract months and any spreads involving IBM. Call 312-435-3500 (the CBOT ) and ask for the market development dept.

[TheBluesMan]

Thank you for understanding, AgentOrange. I hope you stick around awhile and continue to contribute to The Firing Line.

-Dave

[Smoker]

Hi TheBluesMan,

TheBluesMan Quote: "In the Tokyo subway attack, the gas used was Sarin. A nerve agent."

Thanks for the information re Sarin vs mustard gas

Hi Jake,

Jake 98c/11b Quote: "Smoker, the Chinese threat came to the forefront after the collapse of the Soviet Union so it is certainly not the relic of what is commonly refered to as the cold war. I realize you are being bombarded with information but if you re-read my last two posts on this you will see I addressed that (but possibly not as well as was needed)."

Yea it sounded cold war and I did miss your reference but that doesn't change the facts. The China of today is very different than the China of then. Go to Shanghai and you will see more mobile phones than little red books with Mao's photo on them. The simple reality is they can't do Taiwan, which is on their side of the Pacific Ocean so relax; Disneyland and Zuma beach is safe for a lot longer than the next twenty years.

Jake 98c/11b quote: "As to when, their plan is by 2020. Remember the old military saying "plans are worthless but planning is essential"."

I don't think China as you think of it is going to be around by 2020.

Do you think the Chinese are the only ones that can make plans? Didn't Bush just jack up the defence budget? Isn't Disney kicking off negotiations for a theme park in Beijing?

(Just kidding about Disney but then again it wouldn't surprise me)

Jake 98c/11b Quote: "As an old sailor you probably have your own ideas but as an Intel soldier with 15 years behind me I will say I might be better able to speak on this matter"

As an old sailor I mean bad weather sinking the invasion fleet. D-Day was a bitch for 22 miles and in the English Channel. Do you really want to try over a hundred miles of open Ocean? Let alone six or seven thousand miles of the Pacific to take California.

Jake Quote: "One of your arguments was that the Chinese won't attack because we have nukes but they know we are not likely to use them so they view that as an empty threat. If they play their cards right they won't have to deal with that threat."

How do they know you are not likely to use them? Why wouldn't they think you are going to use them if the Chinese version of "Red Dawn" got started in Jake's universe (cause it's not coming to any theatres in this universe).

How are they not going to have to deal with the largest arsenal of WofMD if they did go invade the US in Jake's universe?

Jake Quote: "but they are closing the gap at an alarming rate, because they have a plan."

No they are not. Skip each of our different opinions just look at the trail of cold hard cash. The US is ahead and even with being so incredibly far ahead is spending a multiple of the Chinese military budget each year on defence. Not only is the US in the lead by miles you are still running faster than everyone. In fact the race is over and the US has caught the bunny.

The closest the Chinese will get to your house is when some poor illegal delivers your Chinese take out.

Finally, look at this thread volume. I'm swamped now and just don't have the time to deal with personal messages.

Honestly if you have every lived in Thailand you would know with a Thai a good argument is hard to find and I've got about three going now on different boards so very sorry but just don't have the time.
Hi Striderteen,

Striderteen Quote: "With an absolute maximum range of only 8 km -- that's how far the missile will run before it's out of fuel under OPTIMAL conditions, and you have to be a lot closer to get a target lock -- and a maximum service ceiling of 10,000 feet

So what is the attitude that an airliner is at when it lifts off at the end of the runway? Is that over or under 8,000 meters?

Striderteen Quote: "airliners cruise at some 60-70 thousand feet"

Is this the new U2 commercial airliner model up at 60-70 thousand feet or did the US airforce donate the retired blackbirds to help the American Airline industry? They can't carry a lot of passengers but they go real fast and fly higher than stingers.

Striderteen Quote: "and people would tend to notice a two-man missile team with a five-foot-long missile launcher."

Are these people noticing the Stinger crew setting up on the grounds around the airport you and your friends who are inside the plane guarding it with your Uzis ready to defend the plane from terrorists? All airspace less than 8,000 meters around every airport in the US is a lot of airspace for you and your friends to cover from the ground let alone from inside an airliner. I'm impressed; you guys must have eyes like eagles and to top it all off you must be great shots to be able to roll down the window on your airliner while it's taking off and pick off the terrorist aiming the stinger with your Uzi. I never realised the range of the 9mm cartridge or the anti missile capabilities of a hand held submachine gun. Nerves of steel and metals all around for sure.

Striderteen quote: "When did I ever say it was fair?"

It's implied that they would be fighting fair when you said you need to be armed to defend yourself. The problem with terrorists is they don't let you know they are terrorists and thus a target. For example, this is the problem in Israel dealing with suicide bombers. Lots of professional security guys armed and ready on the street but even so they usually don't know the target until the act its self tells them. It is sad but there seems to be at present no way to determine who is who until the explosion. Maybe that is why they call it terrorism?

Striderteen quote: "It becomes obvious when they pull out their guns/box cutters and try to break down the door to the cockpit."

Do you really think this is going to be the MO ever again? If they ever do this again no one is going to need you and your Uzi. As I said before the passengers will beat the terrorists to death with dinner trays.

It is not know and never will be obvious who is the terrorist in a crowd.

Striderteen Quote: "Conveniently neglecting to mention that Israeli civilians are quite heavily armed and have taken out terrorists on their own on numerous occasions."

Where did you get this idea? Don't know look at how many Israeli civilians have been killed in the last year by terrorist acts? Count the bodies and compile the hard data. A lot of dead ordinary innocent people is the answer. The best trained and experience people in the world have lost dozens of innocent people to terrorists so I don't think this problem is as easy to solve as handing out submachine guns to everyone at the Mall.

Striderteen Quote: "I said "very few terrorist attacks -- definitely not any hijackings". None of the incidents you mention were hijackings"

Still all terrorist acts and each one resulting in many innocent dead. None of which would have been saved by an heroic Striderteen with a Uzi and a white hat even if he was at the scene and locked and loaded to save the day.

Hi Fix,

Fix Quote: "I said I would stay out of this but I cant give Smoker the satisfaction of correcting you on this...
quote: airliners cruise at some 60-70 thousand feet

Sorry fix I answer from top down without reading ahead so I can think about each post as individually as possible so even with your efforts I've already had the satisfaction but thanks for the complement that you assume I would have picked off the altitude mistake in all this response post volume.

Fix Quote: "Actually, it's more like 25-38...but that's still out of Stinger range."

The singer ceiling of 8km (striderteen detail) is about 9 -10 thousand feet so a fair amount of the take off and approach is vulnerable. I simply hope Al Qaida never buys here or smuggles a stinger into the US because for sure it will all end in tears.

Later Smoker

[Smoker]

Hi AgentOrange,

AgentOrange quote: "I knew you were a fraud. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. The fact that you don't know the hand signals is the clincher."

I love the way I failed your test for what I didn't put in but had what I did, ignored. Simply AgentOrange as I started responding to your post the donkey ears started to grow on my head and I asked myself why am I jumping through hoops for this guy's test when I have a five page response post to write.

Hand signals are you secret password to the AgentOrange tree house? Now that's pretty funny because rather than being top secret if you go to the Merc web site (www.cme.com) they have a whole section on hand signal in the education section. So even a Mongolian sheepherder with Internet access could have got into AgentOrange's tree house if he felt like taking the time to jump through your hoops.

You know Charlie D's name and about his cancer so I am happy to give you a red star.

But I'm still curious about your surprise at the guns in Cambodia especially after you implied a Khmer stamp is in your passport. Actually when I think about it I really don't have the time or inclination to pursue it.

AgentOrange quote: "Successful traders do not leave a place like CRT, to go yell on a phone. It was just too damn lucrative."

You have never worked in an off shore tax haven have you? "Lucrative" takes on a whole new meaning when you have oil money backing and no income tax.

Hi ahenry,

ahenry quote: "I will again state that I have read every single word you have written in the thread. You did state that you were an oil engineer." "and then try to weasel out of it though creative editing."

This is the last time ahenry I am going to point you in the right direction. I don't have time for these personal attacks. You speak about something I edited on page 5, why do you think I corrected it?

Now the first time I mentioned anything about oil engineering was on page 4 in response to Jake. I cut and pasted the whole thing in my previous serious of posts. So go read it or go to the original post on page 4 (which happens to be before the page 5 you keep referring to) and read the following quote from me.

"I wanted to see the ruins of Babylon but spent most of the time driving around in a 4x4 with Jorge in the Shiite area of Southern Iraq pretending to be an oil engineer."

Now read that quote from my post on page 4 and you see the word "pretending". I pretended to get a visa since there are not any lucrative financial trading jobs in Iraq so a derivatives trader as profession wouldn't cut it for a visa.

Ahenry quote: "a financialplanner for a Royal family."

When did I every say I was a financial planner? I managed money for them using derivatives. Planning is more accounting and lawyer stuff than trading? And to be frank when there are not taxes managing money is a lot more trading than tax and estate planning although they of course had their people dedicated to that task.

Now that is the last time I am explaining this to you.

RE: Commex ve Comex: Sorry about the extra m typo. Go to the Nymex web site and you will see the comex is a former independent exchange in NY that traded metals most notably god and silver. I never traded in Malaysia or said I traded in Malaysia.

So get it straight once and for all and next time try to post on topic.

AgentOrange: "P.P.S Sorry, just one more thing. Smoker, the CME, the CBOT and the CBOE have entered a partnership to offer single stock futures trading ONLINE. The exchanges are looking for actual DESIGNATED MARKET MAKERS for single stock futures. You could be the market maker for IBM or Intel or Microsoft or GE!"

Wake up sunshine, I'm in Phuket, island paradise with beautiful native girl (my wife). I walked out of an off shore tax haven backed by oil money to drink coconut milk out of the shell just like my hero Gilligan. I swore years ago I would retire at 40 and now three years into the serious tan I wish I bailed out at 35. Now all I like to do is travel, run a little long-term trend following system and kill fish. I got out of "sheet monkey" market making life when I left CRT. Proprietary trading is more lucrative and can be done from anywhere (prefer a sandy place with no taxes) so if you want to show bid/offer to a computer screen all day be my guest.

BTW sunshine, if you want to know why I made the choices I did take a trip to Phuket or Ko Sanui and after your holiday when your suffering from that post-Land of Smiles hangover and are riding that Clark street bus in February at some ungodly hour down to the Board with that bitter cold wind blowing off Lake Michigan then tell me what you think?

Warmest Regards, Smoker

[Solitar]

Since Smoker's comments are repetitious and irrelevant to the other comments - and have been so since the first two pages of this thread, I've since been skipping his stuff and reading only the other TFL'ers comments.

Yes, dear Smoker, your several screen scrolls of replies are going by unread in one fell swoop. Unless you can keep your responses relevant and short I'll continue to scroll on past your stuff. How will I tell if you start listening to us? By the responses of the others. I'm not wasting any more time reading or writing to you.

As to my positions on this, go read what I wrote before.

[Smoker]

Hi AgentOrange,

AgentOrange quote: "One last thing, Smoker, beware of blanket terms like EVERYONE has guns in such and such a country. That is not true of any nation on earth. If you have evidence that EVERYONE in Yemen or Iraq, or Cambodia or Afghanistan or anywhere else has guns please post your source (hint: it doesn't exist)"

One last thing for me to!

Now this statement is even funnier that your belief that Saddam does not control Basra and the strategic oil terminal.

First Don Gwin pulls the old Strawman argument and now AgentOrange follows up with the old "you didn't check everyone so how do you know" argument.

The last time I saw this old ineffective trick was on the Ms Board when I said, "cocker spaniels have good dispositions". I got countered by some Ms Womyn (who most likely owns forty cats) poster with the "you don't know every cocker spaniel on earth so how do you know cocker spaniels have good dispositions"?

Well AgentOrange for the benefit of you and the Womyn most likely owns forty cats the answer is in Statistics 101. The only way to talk about anything with large numbers whether it's cocker spaniels or the guns in f Cambodia is to look at the fat part of the normal distribution curve not the wings. The same way I don't have to go around and check out the disposition of every cocker spaniel on the planet I don't have to go around and make sure EVERY single human being in Cambodia has a gun to make a general statement about the fat part of the Cambodian population normal distribution curve regarding gun ownership and use.

Cambodia is full of guns and other military weapons, MOST (happy now) of the general population has them and have had them for many years going back to the French. This is true the same way that cocker spaniels have a good disposition.

Warmest Regards, Smoker

PS this post has been edited to add "most likely" to my statement about the Ms Board Womyn's cat ownership. I would hate to be guilty about jumping to conclutions about Womyn who think Cocker Spaniels are rabid killers.

[striderteen]

So what is the attitude that an airliner is at when it lifts off at the end of the runway? Is that over or under 8,000 meters?

The point is that the vulnerability of commercial airliners to MANPADS units in the hands of terrorists is not a major factor. They are in range for perhaps five to seven minutes during takeoff and landing.

Is this the new U2 commercial airliner model up at 60-70 thousand feet or did the US airforce donate the retired blackbirds to help the American Airline industry? They can't carry a lot of passengers but they go real fast and fly higher than stingers.

Already corrected. You try my patience. The correct cruise altitude is still well beyond Stinger range.

Are these people noticing the Stinger crew setting up on the grounds around the airport you and your friends who are inside the plane guarding it with your Uzis ready to defend the plane from terrorists? All airspace less than 8,000 meters around every airport in the US is a lot of airspace for you and your friends to cover from the ground let alone from inside an airliner. I'm impressed; you guys must have eyes like eagles and to top it all off you must be great shots to be able to roll down the window on your airliner while it's taking off and pick off the terrorist aiming the stinger with your Uzi. I never realised the range of the 9mm cartridge or the anti missile capabilities of a hand held submachine gun. Nerves of steel and metals all around for sure.

You are being trivially nitpicky and an ass to boot, which I suppose is not out of character for you. I will not bother to address this, as it's ridiculous and you've made it clear that you're not listening to reason anyway.

It's implied that they would be fighting fair when you said you need to be armed to defend yourself. The problem with terrorists is they don't let you know they are terrorists and thus a target. For example, this is the problem in Israel dealing with suicide bombers. Lots of professional security guys armed and ready on the street but even so they usually don't know the target until the act its self tells them. It is sad but there seems to be at present no way to determine who is who until the explosion. Maybe that is why they call it terrorism?

Do you really think this is going to be the MO ever again? If they ever do this again no one is going to need you and your Uzi. As I said before the passengers will beat the terrorists to death with dinner trays.

It is not know and never will be obvious who is the terrorist in a crowd.

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Even a small chance is more than no chance.

Where did you get this idea? Don't know look at how many Israeli civilians have been killed in the last year by terrorist acts? Count the bodies and compile the hard data. A lot of dead ordinary innocent people is the answer. The best trained and experience people in the world have lost dozens of innocent people to terrorists so I don't think this problem is as easy to solve as handing out submachine guns to everyone at the Mall.

People with guns can defend themselves. People without guns can't. But a gun does not make you invincible. By your weird effectiveness argument, the police and military shouldn't have guns either.

Still all terrorist acts and each one resulting in many innocent dead. None of which would have been saved by an heroic Striderteen with a Uzi and a white hat even if he was at the scene and locked and loaded to save the day.

Some would, some wouldn't.

[ahenry]

Smoker this is my last time to say what I have said multiple times before. After you read this feel free to have the last word.

My purpose in bringing up your “conflicting” claims of achievements is to bring to the forefront of other TFLers minds something that they might or might not have picked up on (although at least one other person did). You are either a liar or a poor typist with no ability to admit mistakes made while typing. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are an incredibly poor typist and that your mistakes were unintentional. If you are indeed completely what you claim to be then I stand corrected and apologize for calling your credentials into question. I will leave others with the comment that it is interesting to note that two separate people with a little knowledge of financial markets came to the same conclusion regarding Mr. Smoker.


BTW You are correct that I jumped to the conclusion that you were a financial planner for your Royal family. A “Money Manager” and a “Financial Planner” are not necessarily that same thing. I mistakenly made the assumption that the person that made the decisions regarding a family’s investment portfolio also made some of that family's financial planning decisions. Sorry for the confusion.

[Jake 98c/11b]

Smoker I have to challenge a few things you say and I will try like hell to be more polite than you have been. Shouldn't be hard but you are pushing the bounds of civility.

My understanding of the Chinese is not some relic of the cold war, their position has been the same since the fall of the Soviet union and I have followed it up until 29 Aug 01. Since then I have been focused in another area and I haven't followed things there much but I really do not believe things will have changed that much in the last few months. You keep dismissing this as some cold war policy but I don't think you believe the cold war ended in 2001, what you are pushing is sophistry.

D-Day was not the problem you seem to think it was, there were delays due to the weather but with 40s technology it was still not a big problem in execution. Inchon Korea was much harder than D-Day but things would be much easier today, even if the Chinese are a few years behind us.

The amount of money spent by China is rather deceptive, slave labor is much cheaper than paying the UAW rates we have here. What the US pays $1,000 for the Chinese can produce for about $23. What they are buying off the Russians they are buying at about 30% of what it costs to produce. If you say they are not closing the gap then please give me some reason to believe you, something more substantial than "I have been there and I know it is not so". We will probably always have a higher quality but they will have us in quantity and they could be happy with losing 200 million people if they win.

The Chinese can be confident that we will not use nukes because they know our doctrine, policy and our political posture. Not that any intell analyst couldn't be safe making that assessment.



"Finally, look at this thread volume. I'm swamped now and just don't have the time to deal with personal messages."

I would ask you to take a look at this thread, most people here are through with you and your manner of argument. If you want to flog this dead horse a little while longer then please continue. When no one will continue this you can PM me then, I shouldn't have to wait much longer. I am confident that you won't want to discuss this with me alone but I am still hopeing that I might be wrong.

I am curious to hear why anyone here should listen to you about China, why should the masses trust one lone crackpot over the combined experience of the US intelligence community? Not that we need to listen to the intel guys since the Chinese themselves express their intent regularly. If I needed some help with investing I might listen to you since you seem to have some experience in that field but I have the experience here. Do you treat your doctor with the same contempt? Your mechanic, the architect or lawyer?

[B9mmHP]

Hello! Smoker.

I don`t say a lot when making a responce, and I don`t spell real well eather, and I keep my responce real simple so even the most educated can understand what I say.

Let me try to answer your question. "We, the People" already own everything that was mentioned by others, including ICBM`s, and anything else that was not mentioned.

When, if/the time comes that "We, the People" need to protect our REPUBLIC "We, the People" and that includes most ( excluding the people that are of the Socialist, Liberals and your UN. )of the Officers and Enlisted in the military. They are, the people, and we here at TFL are the people. And when push comes to shove,we the people will/do and have all that is required, be it a rock or a pointed stick.

Yes, I know I didn`t answer all that you wanted, but sometimes life sucks, just learn to live with it.

So why dont you go Troll somewhere else. Go write Chuckie Shumer or Hitlery Clintoon, and tell them what bad people we are and tell them how you hate people that beleave in this Republic.

Have a nice day Smoker.

[Don Gwinn]

Quite frankly, this thread ran its course several pages ago and has been limping along on about one and a half cylinders ever since. It's now gotten to the point that we're actually getting more sniping and personal attacks back and forth than serious questions or answers. Remember, if someone really irritates you, you have every right to ignore him for all time--but don't let the dogs slip in Rich's house. No personal attacks will be tolerated here.

Closed.