Enough of this P99 crap

[defox]

Let me assist my fellow forum members with some FACTS.

1. The SW99 is conceptually the same as the Walther P99. It is not the same manufactured gun. It is just that in this case S&W sought Walther's approval as they did not want to make the same mistake they did when they copied the Glock re: the Sigma pistol and ended up in court.

2. I have seen inconsistent Gun Tests reports, even with the Walthers. But where has that not happened before?

3. The Glock pistols have undergone many changes since its inception. The latest changes have been the inclusion of a loaded chamber indicator and the glock block which allows the pistol to be rendered inert. Many businesses exist in America right now that are profiting on making and selling aftermarket parts for the Glock.This is obviously because the pistol has flaws. The Glock's basic design concept is good however and will influence handgun design for some time.

4. I suggest looking at the Manufacturer's Recommended Price when doing a price comparison so like can be compared with like.

5. Walthers are used by the German State Police and replaced the PP and P38 models. The USPs are also used.

6. The Walther was introduced to the market around 1998 and so in 3 to 4 years it has had a greater impact on the handgun market and a more positive one too than Glock did in its first 3 to 4 years on the market. In ten years time where do you think the Glock will be market share relative to the Walther.

[Tamara]

1. The SW99 is conceptually the same as the Walther P99. It is not the same manufactured gun. It is just that in this case S&W sought Walther's approval as they did not want to make the same mistake they did when they copied the Glock re: the Sigma pistol and ended up in court.

Erm, that's not what Walther says. They're quite proud of their joint venture in the SW99. They oughtta be; they make the frames in the same plant that the P-99 frames are made in and ship them over here, where they then get a cut of the action for every one sold.

5. Walthers are used by the German State Police and replaced the PP and P38 models. The USPs are also used.

Walthers? Yes. (although they're all being phased out; look for good deals on surplus P5's soon) P-99's? No.

Which state? In Germany there are no city or county departments like we know them here. There is the BGS (Border Guards), the BKA (National Police, kinda like the FBI) and the various landespolizei or state police.

Bundeskriminalamt (BKA - Federal Bureau of Investigation)

The BKA issues the 9×19mm H&K P7M8 pistol. (but is transitioning to the HK P8 and HK P10)



Landespolizei Baden-Würtemberg (State Police Baden-Würtemberg)

Issue handgun is the 9×19mm Walther P5 pistol. (Also transitioning to the HK P10)



Landespolizei Bayern (State Police Bavaria)

Issue handgun is the 9×19mm H&K P7M8 pistol.



Landespolizei Berlin (State Police Berlin)

Issue handgun is the 9×19mm SIG-Sauer P6 pistol (P225).




Landespolizei Brandenburg (State Police Brandenburg)

Issue handgun is the 9×19mm SIG-Sauer P228 pistol.




Landespolizei Hamburg (State Police Hamburg)

Issue handgun is the 9×19mm SIG-Sauer P6 pistol (P225).




Landespolizei Hessen (State Police Hessia)

Issue handgun is the 9×19mm SIG-Sauer P6 pistol (P225).




Landespolizei Niedersachsen (State Police Lower Saxony)

Issue handgun is the 9×19mm H&K P7M8 pistol.




Landespolizei Nordrhein-Westfalen (State Police Northrhine-Westphalia)

Issue handgun is the 9×19mm SIG-Sauer P6 pistol (P225).




Landespolizei Rheinland-Pfalz (State Police Rhineland-Palatinate)

Issue handgun is the 9×19mm Walther P5 pistol.




Landespolizei Saarland (State Police Saarland)

Issue handgun is the 9×19mm H&K P10 pistol (USP Compact), it replaced the 9×19mm H&K P9S in the late 1990s.




Landespolizei Sachsen (State Police Saxonia)

Issue handguns are the 9×19mm H&K P7M8 and 9×19mm H&K P10 (USP Compact).



Landespolizei Sachsen-Anhalt (State Police Saxonia-Anhalt)

Issue handgun is the 9×19mm SIG-Sauer P6 pistol (P225).




Landespolizei Thüringen (State Police Thuringa)

Issue handgun is the 9×19mm Walther P5 pistol.

6. The Walther was introduced to the market around 1998 and so in 3 to 4 years it has had a greater impact on the handgun market and a more positive one too than Glock did in its first 3 to 4 years on the market. In ten years time where do you think the Glock will be market share relative to the Walther.

Unfortunately, Walther has placed themselves in the awkward position with the P-99 of having just another nice plastic gun in a sea of nice plastic guns. (It may even be the nicest plastic gun, but it was late to the party and doesn't have the name recognition of the Glocks or USP's) Lowering their price was an intelligent move, as it took them out of price-point competition with the better-known USP and offers the attractive alternative to new handgun buyers of the cachet of the Walther name at roughly Glock prices. It may work, and I hope it does, but it'll be an uphill fight. I've sold 4 Glocks and 2 USP's to every one P-99.

[-Yo-]

P99: Well they figured out the Glocks major shortcomings and did something about them. I say good for Walther.

Glock: Easy to obtain accessories. Really is easy to maintain and very reliable, more so in my view that HKs based on my experience. My HK 45's firing pin broke, twice, and HK .40c had to have slide and bbl replaced due to cracking.

But, I hate, hate, hate the Glock trigger. I put aside all my other pistols for 6 months to try to get used to the Glock trigger. Mine seems to get worse for wear. All I have to show for it is a lot of wasted ammo and bad tendinitis in my elbow now.

The Glock trigger in my g34, what can I say? Sometimes it breaks at 4 lbs, sometimes 4.5. Sometimes it breaks sort of cleanly with a straight pull. I measured the pull--there are 4 distinct pull tensions required in the stroke. Sometimes I apply the right amount of pressure and it just keeps moving and flexing stuff inside... it just feels like you're pushing in a thumbtack into hard particle board.

I'm going to pop for a trigger job. If that doesn't work, the vaunted Glock gets sold. At this point I am just wasting ammo trying to overcome the awful, crappy, sh**y trigger. Sort of like going fishing in a boat with a big hole in it. At some point you'd rather fish than bail and you just ask yourself, what is the point?

I'll just go back to my p7. First three rounds I shot out of it made a nice cloverleaf at 10 yards. Gaston, the trigger does make a difference. I wonder how many bad shootings have been experienced by cops because of the bad Glock trigger.

[.357SIG]

The PD of my city just went to the .40 Walther P990 from S&W 6906s. There goes the theory that no LEA issues them.

[Tamara]

There goes the theory that no LEA issues them.

Who said that?

[355sigfan]

YOu can find some leo out there using anything. I am sure some LEO is using a Korth revolver. The walther p99 if they work the bugs out may have a share of the market in the futer but not a huge share because it does nothing a glocks can't do better.
PAT

[defox]

I did say FACTS.

1. You are mixing up the first set of American made Walther P99 with the German made Walther P99 where Germany made the frames and sent them to America, and the slides and assembly were done in America. Buyers had to look at the proof marks to ensure they were getting the German and not the American version which was seen as inferior. I have attached a picture of the proof marks for the genuine Walther P99.

The SW99 is made by Smith and Wesson in cooperation with Carl Walther GmbH, Sportwaffen. This agreement was necessary because their were patents pending on the Walther and S&W did not want a court battle.

2. I said that Walthers are used by the German State Police e.g Baden Wurtemburg State Polizei and that still stands. I never commented on whether they were standard issues or not. That is a different discussion. Generally, over the last 1 to 2 decades, standard issue for the German State Police have been the Sig P225 and HK PSP(P7). A gradual changeover is taking place now and Walther is hoping its P99 can make it as standard issue. Nonetheless some State Police have been using the P99 even without the changeover being completed.

[Ben]

http://www.gun-tests.com/sample/40SW.html

Ben

[VVG]

>>> The walther p99 if they work the bugs out may have a share of the market in the futer but not a huge share because it does nothing a glocks can't do better. PAT

The Walther has a much better trigger and doesn't look stupid. The Glock may be the ugliest pistol ever made, and I say "may" because it's conceivable, though not likely.

When the Glock first came out no doubt there was someone saying that S&W .38 revolvers were better because that's what 70% of LEA's used. Every time I turn around at my club now, someone is there with a new P99.

The Glock has proven itself as the #1 Yuppie firearm, though.

[Tamara]

You really should read my post before doing all that typing on a reply.

You said:

1. You are mixing up the first set of American made Walther P99 with the German made Walther P99 where Germany made the frames and sent them to America, and the slides and assembly were done in America. Buyers had to look at the proof marks to ensure they were getting the German and not the American version which was seen as inferior. I have attached a picture of the proof marks for the genuine Walther P99.

In response to me posting:

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. The SW99 is conceptually the same as the Walther P99. It is not the same manufactured gun. It is just that in this case S&W sought Walther's approval as they did not want to make the same mistake they did when they copied the Glock re: the Sigma pistol and ended up in court.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Erm, that's not what Walther says. They're quite proud of their joint venture in the SW99. They oughtta be; they make the frames in the same plant that the P-99 frames are made in and ship them over here, where they then get a cut of the action for every one sold.

If you will read my post carefully, you will note that nowhere did I say anything about "American-made P99's". I said that calling the SW99 "not the same manufactured gun" is not entirely accurate, as the frames for the SW99 are made by Walther in Germany, then shipped here to be mated with slides manufactured by *&*.

I wasn't "mixing up" anything about the P99; I wasn't even referring to the P99. I was responding to your claim re the SW99.

[Eric Larsen]

Anyone who has the ignorance or/and arrogance to say "***sucks and ***rule!, just gave all of the info to respond
correctly and with finality.

No high end guns or gun makers, these days "suck" and none really "rule"...get a clue...so you didnt like your gun...so what!

Iv'e seen Glocks "kaboom" enough, that you can have all of them....good luck, shoot well and keep up the informative threads...

Shoot well

[Whats-A-Glock?]

Well, there we have it. A review from Gun Tests Mag that basically says what has been covered right here in the posts in this thread. Thus proving that the magazine is unnecessary when you can get the same info from a forum.

I am interested to know the issue date of that review. It says the p-99 .40 was available for 6 months. I got mine in June 2000. So was that before, during, or after the review? I have to assume that the slide problem was corrected before I got mine. I have never seen it.

My question for those who may know: If someone has the slide problem, can it be corrected by a gunsmith, or does it have go to Earls? What caused the slide problem?

I wonder how they test "corrosion" resistant?

I get a kick out of discussion of the decocker position. Even GT mag discusses it. There doesn't seem to be any rush to decock. A lot like "nobody ever got killed because they couldn't fold their knife up fast enough". I doubt anyone ever died because they couldn't decock fast enough. Makes you wonder about the reviewer.

[355sigfan]

Walther has a much better trigger and doesn't look stupid. The Glock may be the ugliest pistol ever made, and I say "may" because it's conceivable, though not likely.
END
Walthers P99 trigger is bearable not good. Its not as nice as a glocks its heavier with a longer reset. Also who gives a rats ass what the gun looks like.

Eric Larson

A lot of big name companes like Smith and Wesson make guns that just simply suck from time to time. Take the smith and wesson Sigma. Or Colts All American 2000. Yes big companies still make trash from time to time. The P99 may indeed get a market share however slight but it will not take any large share unless it fixes its problems with the P99 and markets better.
PAT

[Tamara]

unless it fixes its problems with the P99 and markets better.

The QC issues you refer to were mostly confined to early production .40 cal P99's. Every one I've seen for the past year or more has been a gem.

The P99's have the feel that the somewhat bland and clunky SIGpros should have had: a precision Teutonic machine, like a P-226, but in polymer. The only thing that keeps me from buying one is that I already have "nice" guns. Plastic guns are work guns to me, and it's the Glock's clunky, ugly, drive-nails-with-it nature that keeps me hanging on to them. I suppose I'll get around to adding a USP and a P99 to the stable eventually.

As far as marketing goes: Walther's new price cut, which drops them to right around five bills, is a big start. And (seriously) don't overlook the "James Bond" factor. Product placement is a big deal, especially to non-hobbyists/first-time buyers. Rap music lyrics (too bad for Walther that "P99" doesn't rhyme as easily as "Glock" ) and Tommy Lee Jones in U.S. Marshals sold as many Glocks as any three LE contracts.

[355sigfan]

Tamara

If the problems are indeed fixed with the P99 then it may have a brite futer in front of it. But I doubt it will take a significant share of the market. It will probably be a gun that is enjoyed by Walther fans and Bond Fans and a few others who like the grip changing feature. If they changed the rails so it would take a M3 light and make the trigger a constant short 5.5 to 6 pound pull for the first to last shot they may have something good. I still find the extra muzzle flip a negative factor with the P99 in 40sw.
PAT

[Modifiedbrowning]

Wow! Everyone has an opinion I guess. I personally have no experience with Glocks(that is correct spelling isn't it? ) I own a P99 and have never had any of the malfunctions listed here. No jams or cracked slides(I have a 9mm). So, I guess it comes down to do you like you like your handgun of choice? If you do, who gives a S##T what the other guy likes? If you think your handgun is the best and the other guy doesn't, once again who gives a S##T? To each his own, you reap what you sow, it's my life I'll do what I want, etc etc etc. You have a gun you REALLY like, let the other guy enjoy the gun he REALLY likes, and nobody's self-esteem has to be reduced.

[PATH]

I own the P99 but not a Glock. I have shot both and prefer the Walther. I also have the Walther P5. I have had problems with the Glock on the range failing to eject a shell. Never had a problem with either of my Walthers.

If someone wants to have a Glock when their butt is on the line that is fine with me. I'd prefer to have a Walther if my life hung in the balance.

In the end one should carry what one is most comfortable with!

[Whats-A-Glock?]

I never knew of the James Bond connection until long after I bought my P-99.

What film is it that his new sidearm is revealed? Didn't he carry some other Walther model before Q got him a P-99?

I would appreciate more info about the slide problem, if anyone knows. What caused it, how they fixed and especially how to find out which ones were affected.

[Rovert]

I'm a bit late to the fray, but let me offer my two cents.

At a certain point beyond the technology and attributes of a product, this conversation has become one of marketing, economics, and business mechanics. Glock's present market share and popularity is a direct byproduct of the first to offer polymer technology that's reasonably reliable, aggressive price competition, a robust buy-back program that encourages LEA to adopt the platform, and a comprehensive advertising program.

One could say that Glock is the Microsoft of guns. They made a certain level of uniform technology affordable, advertised the daylights out of it, telling everyone how wonderful it is, and after a while, anything that's said often enough becomes the truth. People buy what they see. Using their present dominance in the market as an arguement for technical superiority is a weak arguement, just like saying McDonalds has the best hamburger, because they sold so many. Nope. They just have more stores and better coupons.

That said, I have shot both Glocks and bought the Walther for every reason... ergonomics, trigger, accuracy, reliabilty, aesthetics... not in any order. In over 2200 rounds in the span of about 3 months, I have never had a single error with many different kinds of ammo. With all due respect to the Glock community... no offense intended, no flames, please... I wouldn't buy a Glock when the Walther is available.

[Shake]

This is really pretty funny.

I have to believe that anyone who takes themselves seriously enough to be able to dictate which firearms are "pos" or "the best" with out qualifications is childish to say the least. In my opinion it shows a lack of knowledge.

Here are some of the statements regarding Glocks that we have been graced with:

They are simply the best guns going for serious duty of self defence use.

I have found glocks to be the best just as have most other cops

The funny thing about this is that you would think that a cop would have a better understanding of how the politics of selecting an issue firearm works. Does anyone really believe that cops just carry anything they want and 70% choose Glock? What a load.

Here's a clue for all of you who think you know what is "best" or what "sucks". . . You know what is best for YOU, NOT EVERYONE ELSE. If we took you seriously, we'd all be driving Caprice Classics or Crown Vics. After all lost of police departments use them, they must be "the best".

Now I have no bone to pick with Glocks, I think they are great guns, but they are not for me.

Bottome line. . . what's best for one isn't best for all. Use what you like and don't try to foist this "best", "pos", "sucks" etc. off on us. I don't buy it.

Shake

[355sigfan]

The funny thing about this is that you would think that a cop would have a better understanding of how the politics of selecting an issue firearm works. Does anyone really believe that cops just carry anything they want and 70% choose Glock? What a load.

END

There is no politics in chosing a sidearm most of the time. Glocks are chosen because they are available in any caliber you could want and size, They are noted for reliability and accuracy, They have one simple trigger pull to master. They are priced right. They usually win all the torture tests out there. Lets see a Walther go 140000 rounds without an overhaul then you can talk. Heck the first ones and the one I had could not even make it through a magazine without a malfunction.
PAT

[Shake]

Do you seriously expect us to believe that there are no politics or budget considerations in choosing an issue sidearm? Are you seriously a cop?

Come on.

I'm not defending Walthers, I'm arguing the fact that you 355sigfan have determined, in your utimate wisdom, that Glocks are right for everyone regardless of who they are, what their handgun experiences are, what their preferences are, what size and shape of hand they have etc.

Your unsubstantiated blather is tiresome. You expect us to believe that we can pick a GLOCK off the shelf, burn 140,000 rounds and not expect to do maintenance? Sounds to me like you spend too much time on Glocktalk.

You continue to talk about your experience with ONE Walther (of course you generalize and say "the first ones"). If all handguns were judged by one specimen, we'd run out of options in a hurry.

I met a guy in a gun shop that had bought his first Glock based on all the rave reviews that people like you give on the web. Burned three rounds and the thing busted, end of story, non-functional. Guess what? The guy wanted his money back and wanted a different gun.

Of course a more experienced shooter would realize that an entire line of pistols can't be judged based on one specimen.

Get this, just because you are sold on a particular firearm doesn't mean everyone else has to be sold on it too. It cracks me up when someone believes his/her experiences to be more valid than anyone else's because hey, it happened to me. I'm more important.

Get real.

Shake

[Whats-A-Glock?]

There is no politics in chosing a sidearm most of the time. Glocks are chosen because they are available in any caliber you could want and size, They are noted for reliability and accuracy, They have one simple trigger pull to master. They are priced right. They usually win all the torture tests out there. Lets see a Walther go 140000 rounds without an overhaul then you can talk. Heck the first ones and the one I had could not even make it through a magazine without a malfunction.

yawn!! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[355sigfan]

Whats-A-Glock?
Oh yea Glock bribes all the officals to pick its guns. Its a real political process. Give me a break. Time for you to face the facts that glock is chosen because its the best not because of some political reasons.
PAT

[GSB]

Glocks are not preaty they are also not overated. They are simply the best guns going for serious duty of self defence use.

For you maybe. Not me. And there are lemons among them, just like any other brand -- unless the jamomatic 17 I encountered a few years ago was a figment of my imagination.

If you like 'em, great -- they are well made pistols that work well for those who like them -- but "best" is a matter of very subjective opinion.