Mexico to give border crossers survival kits

[madmike]

I'm a legal immigrant. My family was briefly in violation of the visa due to shoddy advice from an American lawyer.

Illegal immingrants bother me for several reasons. As far as the argument of "We need cheap labor," if it is so necessary, then grant work visas to them....of course, then they'd have to be paid minimum wge, right? I even see itinerant Mexican laborers here in Indiana and Illinois. The drive nice trucks, too.

As to the diversity issue, America was CREATED by diverse cultures, and still has them. Canada (where I used to live and which used to be a great nation) is even more diverse. Britain (where I hail from originally) is so diverse there are no real Britons left. (and it USED to be a great nation...look how prevalent the language is.)

I do take offense at people who lump me in with illegal immigrants, or are scared that I'm "Taking a job from an honest American."

If more "honest Americans" learned to read, write, and THINK!!!! there'd be a lot more competition for legitimate immigrants.

Ran into one clown who wanted to prohibit immigrants from owning property, refuse to allow any government aid to us (there isn't, unless you qualify as a refugee), and opined that we should be "working for Americans, not stealing their businesses."
I'm not sure how working 70 hours a week to build a business is "stealing," nor how convincing a bank to give you a loan (the government won't, if you are an immigrant (not then, anyway, dunno about now.) is.

He wasn't sure how to respond when I informed him that as an resident alien, I couldn't vote, but DID pay taxes and COULD be drafted.

rant off

[madmike]

>Americafirst said: the Fact is that the illegal >aliens who vote, and they do, the legal aliens >who vote, and they do, the new Americans who >vote, with almost no exceptions, vote Democratic >and AGAINST the 2nd Amendment.

Whoever said that is full of stuff I use on my rose garden.
Most LEGAL immigrants are fire-breathing defenders of the 2nd. Ask Oleg Volk from the USSR. Ask me from Britain. Ask Miervaldis from Latvia.

A LOT of the illegal immigrants, not in the PRK, also are very determined to reign in the government. Why do you think they left their homes? Who do you think gave Bush Florida? It was the Cuban population (legal and illegal) voting against the duffer factor.

[longeyes]

Interesting point. As I said in a recent post, sometimes later arrivals to a culture rejuvenate it and hark back to that nation's roots, are more patriotic than the people who are already there who have lost the way. Immigrants are in this country by choice, have had to sacrifice to choose the American way. Perhaps we should require citizens to renew their citizenship every five years?

[bullet44]

quote;Most LEGAL immigrants are fire-breathing defenders of the 2nd.)

No one can argue much with this however this is not true about present illegals coming from Mexico. I have been a witness to much of this
for a number of years.
We are in decline in many ways,quality of life
is changing and not for the better. I do not
blame the illegals for this however they are &
will be a big factor if it is not controlled,
meaning legal immigration.!!
Our big cities are in trouble,roads, services,
airports, etc, due to population growth. How do
we control this, more laws, less freedom.
If we do not control growth something or someone
will do it for us.We cannot play GOD and save
everyone,feed everyone, it just not possible
and if we continue on this present path America
will be in deep trouble and again I say it will
affect those of you under the age of 40 the most.
All in all its good we still have the freedom to talk about it.

[MrBigglesworth]

"We're not going to close our eyes," he said. "We have individuals with needs, and they are dying at the border."


Then why dont they meet those needs in MEXICO by raising the standard of living and such. Pay a better wage and get better healthcare instead of the "almost outright shipment" of them to the U.S.?

[bullet44]

Time says viva los border jumpers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



By Don Feder



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© 2001 WorldNetDaily.com

"Welcome to Amexica," reads the cover of the June 11 Time Magazine. "The border is
vanishing before our eyes, creating a new world for all of us." Viva diversity – not to mention
poverty, rising government expenditures and loss of national identity.

More than 4,600 illegals cross our southern border every day, Time tells us. It approvingly
quotes a border resident who insists, "Trying to stop this migration is like trying to stop a wave
with a Dixie cup."

Thanks in part to the human deluge, "Salsa is more popular than ketchup; Salma Hayek is bigger
than Madonna – and the border is everywhere," the magazine exalts. "One day soon it may seem
a little backward for someone in the U.S. not to speak some Spanish." Ole! And wouldn't it be
nice if all of the aliens here spoke more than a little English.

Time reflects the mindset of America's elites on immigration from Mexico: The tide is
unstoppable; they're taking jobs Americans don't want; diversity means ethnic cuisine and
celebrity glamour, and no downside.

Mexican President Vicente Fox is delighted to send us his surplus population, and the social
problems that go with them. His government has even proposed providing survival kits (food,
medicine, etc.) to help illegals cope with the perils of border jumping.

Understandably, America is a mecca for this nation of 100 million. The average American
worker earns more in an hour than his Mexican counterpart makes in a day. Jobs, health care,
education and just about everything else here is vastly superior to what's available there. Per
capita gross national product in the United States is $29,240, compared with $7,450 in Mexico.

But, only one side benefits from the flow.

Almost 60 percent of Mexicans have no more than a primary-school education. Those who
emigrate compete for jobs with our poorest citizens. Due to this competition, real wages for the
10 million Americans who lack a high-school diploma declined 7.2 percent in the '90s.

Nearly 80 percent of Mexicans settle in four border states. Among all immigrant households,
33.9 percent use a major welfare program. As illegals operate in the shadow economy, most
pay no taxes. However, they do make a substantial contribution to the costs of everything from
education to law enforcement.

The Immigration and Naturalization Service estimates there are now 400,000 Mexicans living
illegally in Arizona, up from 115,000 five years ago. Hispanics now account for two-thirds of
all students in the Phoenix school system. The city spends $49 million annually on health care
for these uninvited guests.

Porous borders pose more than an economic problem. Last week, Antonio Villaraigosa, the son
of Mexican immigrants, lost the race for mayor of Los Angeles.

A May 31 Los Angeles Times story noted that as a student, Villaraigosa led the UCLA chapter
of a militant Hispanic group called MEChA, which advocates returning California and the
Southwestern United States to Mexico. During the campaign, when asked by a reporter for KFI
radio if he still adhered to the group's anti-American goals, the former speaker of the California
Assembly refused to answer.

Villaraigosa's election would have marked a milestone in the ongoing transformation of our
largest city. In 1998, when the Mexican national soccer team played the United States at the Los
Angeles Coliseum, the audience booed our national anthem and pelted the American team with
trash as it left the field.

The idea that it's impossible for Washington to control our southern border is surrender
propaganda from immigration defeatists. At any one time, no more than 1,800 Border Patrol
agents guard a perimeter that's 3,000 miles long.

To deal with an illegal population estimated at 11 million, the INS has 300 agents charged with
enforcement beyond the borders. The agency's entire annual budget ($4.8 billion) is less than a
third of what the federal and state governments spent on bilingual education in 1997.

For Time's editors, illegal immigration means gardeners, domestics and an opportunity to
demonstrate their virtue by embracing the downtrodden at little cost to themselves. For the
average American, it means higher taxes, (in some cases) job competition and the gradual loss
of what many still cherish.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[AZ]

Tucson, Arizona Tuesday, 12 June 2001



Desert heat claims two more border crossers
By Tim Steller
ARIZONA DAILY STAR

Two more illegal entrants died after crossing Arizona's southern border illegally over the weekend.

A third man was shot in the head, apparently by a border bandit, but survived and was being treated Monday at University Medical Center.

The two deaths raised the number to seven border crossers who have died crossing from Mexico into Southern Arizona since May 24.

That's the day the last of 14 border crossers was found dead in the worst single mass death of illegal entrants in Arizona history.

In the Tucson sector, 38 border crossers have died this fiscal year. That doesn't count the 14 who died in the desert 120 miles west of Tucson last month, which the Border Patrol calls the Yuma Sector.

On Saturday night, Anastacio Lopez Guerrero led a group of nine illegal entrants into the U.S. near Lukeville.

But he began feeling dizzy and started vomiting, according to U.S. Border Patrol and Mexican Consulate reports.

He died Sunday as the group was walking, and they carried his body out to Arizona 86 Sunday night, Daniels said. Lopez Guerrero, 38, apparently suffered a heart attack, said Enrique Muñoz, the director of protection at Tucson's Mexican Consulate.

The other deceased illegal entrant crossed the border with a cousin and 12 others near Douglas, said Miguel Escobar Valdez, the Mexican consul there.

"They crossed on Saturday, walked all day, all night and all morning on Sunday," Escobar said.

"At a particular point, the guy just couldn't keep going anymore."

About 20 miles north of the border, near the intersection of High Lonesome Road and Davis Road, the man, Sergio Perez Pescador, died. His cousin found a nearby resident, who drove with the survivor to the Douglas Border Patrol station about 1:30 Monday morning.

Agents returned to the area and found Perez's body, Daniels said. He apparently died of dehydration, Escobar said.

Early Monday morning, agents encountered a border crosser who survived a brush with death on the Arizona border.

The 29-year-old, for whom officials had two different names Monday, crossed the line Sunday near Sasabe with a group of illegal entrants, Daniels said.

Robbers accosted the group late Sunday, and the members fled, the man told agents. As the 29-year-old ran, he heard gunfire and was struck in the head.

He lost consciousness in an area about 16 miles north of the border but awoke Monday morning, the officials said. He bandaged his head and walked to nearby Arizona 286. There he flagged down U.S. Border Patrol agents.

"It was just a grazing wound," said Deputy Nicole Feldt of the Pima County Sheriff's Department.

Hospital officials expected to release him today.

* Contact Tim Steller 434-4086 or at [email protected].

[AZ]

Tucson, Arizona Tuesday, 12 June 2001



11 gain freedom, jobs after tragedy
By Tim Steller
ARIZONA DAILY STAR

The 11 surviving victims of last month's border-crossing tragedy are scheduled to spend their first night outside of U.S. government hands tonight in Phoenix.

U.S. Magistrate Judge Morton Sitver ordered the group's release from prison yesterday for a trip to San Luis, Ariz.

There, the group is supposed to complete Immigration and Naturalization Service paperwork before returning to Phoenix, where jobs and apartments await them.

Federal prosecutors consider the migrants to be key witnesses against Jesus Lopez Ramos, who is accused of leading 14 other illegal entrants to their deaths in the desert 120 miles west of Tucson. The 11 were surviving members of the same group.

Federal officials have arranged for them to have special INS permission to stay in the country until they testify at the Lopez Ramos trial. All gave videotaped statements last week.

On Monday Sitver ordered that the group, from the Mexican state of Veracruz, not leave Arizona without permission.

Phil Noland, an attorney for two of the survivors, said only one of the 11 survivors is still hoping to return home before the trial.

"Just looking at these people in court, it amazes me," Noland said. "They went through this ordeal of watching their friends die and drinking their own urine."

"The way they talk about it, they don't choke up, they don't start crying," Noland said. "They're anxious to get out and start working."

The U.S. government arranged for the group to have furnished apartments that will be paid for the first month, Noland said.

The government also arranged for jobs in a refrigerated plant that pays $7.50 per hour, Noland said. He wouldn't identify the plant out of fear of threats against the survivors, who already have provided information about the smugglers who brought them from their southern Mexico homes.

The 11 are scheduled to make another appearance in Phoenix U.S. District Court June 25.

* Contact Tim Steller 434-4086 or at [email protected].

[Mike in VA]

Crappola.

I'd like a rational work permit system for those who wish to play fair, mine fields for the rest.

Mexico has to solve her own problems, and quit trying to export them north. We didn't create the situation, and we only have a marginal responsibilty to solve it.

When I'm elected God, there will be many changes . . . until then. I keep a list.
M2

[AZ]

Mike, you are right except i do not think it is up to us to fix thier problems in any way.

this news clip is not good, they will be coming up here even more now or is why they are coming up here now?

****************************************************
Mexican economy falters
06/12/2001

From Wire Reports

MEXICO CITY – Mexico's industrial production fell 3.1 percent in April compared to the same month a year ago as the U.S. slowdown continued to buffet the Mexican economy, the Finance Ministry reported Monday.

Mexico's industrial production has lost ground for three months in a row.

The construction industry has fallen sharply, and manufacturing companies have cut back exports as U.S. demand has cooled.

The Mexican economy has entered a mild recession, by some measures, and economists say the trend could worsen in the next few months.

http://www.dallasnews.com/world/mexi...12bus.ART.html

[AZ]

Saving immigrants [illegal aliens]
Tucson, Arizona Tuesday, 19 June 2001

Saving immigrants
In a move of simple human decency, the U.S. Border Patrol is assigning humanitarian workers and more agents to the border. The mission is not one of enforcement. It is rather an attempt to prevent mass deaths like those of the 14 people who died in June crossing the border.

While the effort is as laudable as the water stations approved by the Pima County Board of Supervisors, the underlying federal policies that fuel the problems on the border remain.

And untold enforcement dollars cannot stop the poor Mexicans, Central Americans and South Americans who cross the border looking for work in this country.

Even as the Border Patrol coordinates with the Mexican government to prevent deaths, the move amounts to tacit acknowledgement that enforcement will not stop the immigrants. It also indicates that immigration policies are as foolish as summertime attempts to cross the desert.

The Border Patrol announced last week that more agents will be assigned to the high-risk areas of the Tucson sector. Seventy-five new agents graduating in June will be assigned to the Tucson sector. The Border Patrol's 23-person Search and Rescue team will also be assigned to the Tucson area. In addition, the number of aircraft will be increased to 12.

Another well-meaning Border Patrol effort will increase efforts to identify, arrest and prosecute the "coyotes" - smugglers who often leave their human cargo defenseless in the desert. There is no question that these soulless predators should be hunted down and prosecuted for their crimes. But it would be silly to believe that the numbers of migrating masses would suddenly decrease without the aid of smugglers. Illegal immigrants are, after all, people who willingly risk death to find work.

Humanitarian efforts to prevent massive deaths in the desert are wise and necessary. The summer heat does not discriminate and will take the lives of the unprepared.

But the efforts are those of an agency carrying out the policies of a federal government woefully unaware, or unmoved, by the carnage on the border.

We hope the Border Patrol and the Mexican government can discourage crossers and prevent the deaths of those unprepared for the passage into the valleys of the Arizona deserts.

But no amount of enforcement or humanitarian aid can stem the flows of people who will risk everything in search of living wages. The solutions to illegal immigration will not be found by the Border Patrol in the deserts of the Southwest, but in the political wills of neighboring countries.


All content copyright © 1999, 2000, 2001 AzStarNet, Arizona Daily Star and its wire services and suppliers and may not be republished without permission. All rights reserved. Any copying, redistribution, or retransmission of any of the contents of this service without the expressed written consent of Arizona Daily Star or AzStarNet is prohibited.

http://www.azstarnet.com/star/tue/10619editlamigra.html

--------------------

"Buy American The Job You Save May Be Your Own."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nuts: 842 | Nest Location: sw arizona | Squirrel Since: Mar 2000

[moa]

Here is something else we can ponder as we watch as America fills up with poorly educated and often unskilled workers from abroard with poor English language skills.

Under the current tax code, 35% of the voters pay no income tax. Many other voters pay no tax and a significant number even get income tax credit checks because of the "earned income tax credit" and other credits. One Government estimate is that 43% of income tax filers actually get refunds in excess of their tax liability.

So, currently 167 million voters have little or no tax liability, or get payments. However, 32 million taxpayers pay 83 percent of the taxes, with the top five percent (6.5 million) taxpayers paying 54% of the taxes.

What this can equate to is that a majority of voters can basically out vote and rip off the minority of tax payers by insisting on more taxes for more programs. This plays into the hands of vote seeking politicans and poor immigrants.

It would seem we have a new class of Americans; tax slaves.

[moa]

I forgot to mention on my previous post that the information contained comes from a June 6 editorial in the Washington Times by the nationally syndicated columnist Paul Craig Roberts.

[ahenry]

I am struck by the unique similarity here of the members of this web site and typical gun control advocates. On the gun-grabber side we have a consensus that the “evil guns” are the cause of crime. Here on this web site we have a consensus (I must add, with the lone exception of myself and perhaps those one or two that have spoken up) that the problems with immigrants are because “they are a drag to our economic and social way of life”. I see comments such as “more immigrants will mean that I/we will have to pay for them since they take away my jobs” and “ stop the evil immigrants from entering our country because all these immigrants want to do is live off the public dole.”

Le me try to ask this question one more time (I believe that this is my 3rd or 4th time to request this). Please provide me (us) with concise, specific examples, or defensible claims, of HOW immigrants have caused or created problems that are not directly the result of government intrusion. To attempt to explain this question (since nobody has answered it yet) let me provide an example. I might ask a liberal to explain how a gun is the cause of crime since I seem to find the cause of crime to be related to human action as opposed to an inanimate item. The correlation is in the discussion of the root problem.

You cannot find a solution to a problem until you can define that problem. So in that light I challenge you to define the problem. If we are to be honest I suspect that most people are thinking of immigrants from Mexico when they think of the “evils” of immigration. So on the top layer a potential solution might be elimination of all Mexican immigration while allowing immigration from other lands. Does this seem logical to anyone? Of course not, so then I would suggest we delve a little deeper into the question. If we really are serious about our Nation we should not focus on gun control alone, we should look at each and every problem we face. We should peel back the layers of a problem that face our Nation and look deep to determine the best solution. So I ask you. “What is wrong with immigration”?

[KimberLady]

I wonder if those health officials are aware that the first month of birth control pills is designed to get your body to accept them; doctors tell you to use an alternate method of birth control during your first month on the pills. If these women are using BC pills thinking that they act *immediately*, boy, there's a term for women like that.

Mothers.

[longeyes]

On 5-29 "moa" posted the following. Might be worth revisiting at this time. The source wasn't cited but perhaps "moa" can supply it.



1. Social Security/Medicare : 400,000 foreigners now collect Social Security (SSI) benefits
without having worked one day in America.

2. Jobs: Cuban born economics professor George Borjas shows that immigration costs U.S.
born workers $133 billion a year in job losses.

3. Taxes: Services to all immigrants, both legal and illegal, cost taxpayers a record $68 billion
per year.

4. Crime: 25% of today's Federal prisoners are immigrants. In some areas, 12% of felonies,
25% of burlaries and 34% of auto thefts are committed by illegal aliens.

5. Welfare: Immigrants are 50% more likely to get welfare than natives. Non-citizens now
collect nearly $7 billion year in benefits.

6. Schools: Bilingual education doubles the cost of alien schooling. Schooling of immigrants
costing an average of 90% more per family. Also a huge strain of education infrastructure
requiring an explosion in new school building.

7. Overcrowding: Two-thirds of our population growth is due to immigration. This stresses
cities, schools, medical facilities, highways, national parks, beaches, natural resources, water
supplies, etc.

8. Other issues: The loss of American cultural identity and upset of ethnic balance. In 50 years
the number of people in Ameria will double with the English language often no longer the
language of the land in many places.

[longeyes]

Ahenry, for some reason you wish to posit a "utopian" where there is zero "government intrusion." In such a world immigration, you allege, would not be a problem. Well, first off, that scenario doesn't seem to address the realities of where we are right now. Even the most ardent Second Amendment advocate isn't, yet anyway, advocating we eliminate Government altogether, for that would endanger the Second Amendment itself.

Mexico does send the greatest numbers, and that, for me, is the reason to mention Mexico. The numbers. No other reason. Mexico happens to be on our border and has a lively "export" business (human beings) going on with us.

Immigration, per se, isn't the danger. Uncontrolled immigration is. The reasons, cultural, social, and environmental, have been adduced in previous posts. Can we continue to add population in large numbers and maintain the style of life we prefer? A lot of us fear not. Then there's the question of laws being broken. Not a good thing, on any level. But maybe you consider laws "government intrusion."

I realize that money today doesn't require "documentos." When it comes to capital the borders are wide open--or at least that's the goal of many corporate wise men (or wiseguys). Whether they are wise or foolish remains to be seen.

[moa]

Longeyes, et al, the information I posted came from the following:

American Immigration Control, N.C.
PO Box 738
Monterey, Virginia 24465-0738
(540) 468-2023

This organization has been monitoring immigration for quite a few years. Do not know how long precisely.

By the way, we all have until July 2 to contact our US Senator and Congresscritters and Pres. Bush concerning allowing Mexican trucks and buses to legally drive anywhere in the US. Right now they are allegedly contained in a 20 mile radius of the US/Mexican border. Allowing complete access is part of the NAFTA agreements.

Problems is that there is no US equivalent standards on Mexican drivers and vehicles. Currently, something like 50% of all Mexican trucks that are inspected in the USA fail and are sent back. However, these failed trucks often sneak across the border at less patrolled checkpoints.

And, of course, the entry into the USA of narcotics, illegal migrants, criminals and contraband is greatly enhanced.

[ahenry]

Longeyes, in my post coming directly after the one you mentioned by MOA you will recall I responded this way:

I still think we are focused on the wrong thing here. This is akin to being hit in the chest with a baseball bat and suggesting the solution to the pain is a thicker chest protector.

Let me see if I can better explain why the problem is not immigration but rather our current welfare and “public dole” system.

It is because of this belief that I requested specific problems caused by immigration that are not the result of government intrusion. Since these specific “problems” have now been mentioned twice I will respond with specifics rather than general concepts.
Before I do that though I want to respond to something you said. To paraphrase you, I delude myself by referring to an idealistic “utopian” society free from “government intrusion”. While I can’t guarantee that I do not delude myself I am certainly not envisioning some sort of “utopian, anarchical society”. Far from it. I am happy to have a government. It serves a very necessary and useful function. As far as “utopian” is concerned, I would suggest that the vast majority of our nations history supports the position I hold indicating that perhaps the solution to visible problems does not lie with immigration but rather somewhere else...

[ahenry]

(My responses in italics)

1. Social Security/Medicare : 400,000 foreigners now collect Social Security (SSI) benefits without having worked one day in America.

First of all, this is the perfect example of the government creating the problem. Which was exactly what I asked you not provide as “evidence” that immigration is bad. However, having heard you say it before I will remove my head from the clouds and discuss the actual facts regarding immigration and the “public dole”. According to a 1997 comprehensive study by the National Research Council found that on average immigrants pay 80,000 thousand MORE dollars in taxes than they consume in government services. I haven’t seen the numbers supplied by moa but even if their are millions of immigrants collecting Social Security if they are paying MORE into the system than they are taking out where is the problem? Cisco has millions of dollars in expenses but does that mean they are about to go bankrupt? No, their inflow is greater than their outflow. Stating that we are doomed because immigrants collect social security is similar to saying that Microsoft is about to go under because their payroll is in the billions. It is only one side of the equation. And for so you know (moa I would suggest you check your sources...) by law immigrants cannot collect SSI, welfare, or any public assistance for 3 years or they will be exported (they rarely are but isn’t that similar to saying that we need more gun laws because the ones in place now aren’t doing their job even though they aren’t enforced?)

2. Jobs: Cuban born economics professor George Borjas shows that immigration costs U.S. born workers $133 billion a year in job losses.

I can’t speak for moa, but according to the Cato Institute quoting Borjas, “there is no empirical evidence documenting that the displacement effect [of natives from jobs] is numerically important" (Borjas 1990, 92). The reason for this is because while immigrants do become employed here they also create jobs that then provide work for not only the “misplaced” natives but even creates more demand for workers thereby increasing overall wages. Again not sure where moa got this but no offence I’ll take Cato's word for it.

3. Taxes: Services to all immigrants, both legal and illegal, cost taxpayers a record $68 billion per year. See the study mentioned above (National Research Council).

4. Crime: 25% of today's Federal prisoners are immigrants. In some areas, 12% of felonies, 25% of burlaries and 34% of auto thefts are committed by illegal aliens.

I have no information on hand for this, however I will do my best to do some research on this fact. My initial response however is to call attention to the last two words of that sentence, “illegal aliens”. My guess would be that a goodly proportion of the illegals in prison are there because the only jobs they could get (because they are illegal) were low paying, menial jobs. However, as I said I will have to do some research on this.

5. Welfare: Immigrants are 50% more likely to get welfare than natives. Non-citizens now collect nearly $7 billion year in benefits.

Once again I direct your attention to the above study. In addition according to the Cato Institute “If refugees are excluded from the assessment, and only non-refugees are considered, the rate of welfare use for new immigrants who entered between 1980 and 1990 is considerably below the rate for natives ages 15 and above.” Refugees are a completely different situation altogether and not really the scope of this discussion.

6. Schools: Bilingual education doubles the cost of alien schooling. Schooling of immigrants costing an average of 90% more per family. Also a huge strain of education infrastructure requiring an explosion in new school building.

Once again there is a problem (cost of educating under a bilingual system) that is not a result of immigration. Why do we have a system that attempt to educate individuals under their native tongue? It is not our responsibility to educate them with their language. But that has no bearing on the discussion of the value or harm from immigration, that is merely further evidence that the government doesn’t know what it is doing. Further there is substantial evidence that even immigrants don’t like bilingual education. You got a problem with bilingual education? Well so do I, I just don’t confuse that with immigration...

7. Overcrowding: Two-thirds of our population growth is due to immigration. This stresses cities, schools, medical facilities, highways, national parks, beaches, natural resources, water supplies, etc.

Ok, this has been discussed several times but I will say it again. First American population growth is currently approximately 1 percent compared to an average 1.3 percent since the 1900. As a proportion of population, immigration is now about one-third what it was in the peak years (years in which America was able to successfully assimilate immigrants). I will stop there as my post is already long.

8. Other issues: The loss of American cultural identity and upset of ethnic balance. In 50 years the number of people in Ameria will double with the English language often no longer the language of the land in many places.

Boy do I ever agree that this is a problem. However, this is not because of immigration (remember current immigration rates are far lower than in the past) but rather due to the huge demand for “multi-culturalism”. This is something that has gotten to the point of absurdity. The newest indication of just how far the left will take things is the suggestion that a University in California have graduations for each ethnic group. Talk about the exact opposite of your goal. By attempting to force “diversity” from pre-school on up there now arises greater schisms between races than there ever where.

As I said, find the actual problems. Don’t focus on the surface indications.

[longeyes]

Ahenry,

Here's an "actual problem:" illegal voting. Gore is reputed to have won the popular vote last year by--what?--half a million votes. How many votes did Gore get that came from illegal voters? I don't have the numbers--interesting that no one wishes to investigate the depth of this growing problem--but I'm willing to wager that if you subtracted illegal alien voters (most of whom are likely to be voting Democratic)--the popular vote results would be reversed, easily, by a million or two. Extrapolate this problem into the future and you are looking at the Republicans, for better or worse, as a marginalized party. We need to have stringent controls of who has suffrage here. That is basic to our system of legal representation.

We keep hearing that illegals pay in more than they pay out. If most illegals are in low-paying jobs, how can that be, when right now the lowest-earning strata in the country really pay no taxes at all? A goodly percentage of illegal alien families have several children of school age. At roughly $6,000 (this is a conservative figure) per pupil (L.A. Unified) we are looking at benefits, just from schooling, that would take an upper-middle-class taxpayer to defray through taxes. I personally would not argue that it is better to have unschooled kids, whatever their provenance, but I think we need a different source for these expenditures, perhaps taxes on the businesses that benefit directly from illegal immigration or, Heaven forfend, a direct levy on the Mexican government itself.

I think I asked this before: when we have another thirty or forty million people in the U.S., most of them probably in the West, where in hell is the water going to come from? Empty space is there, yes, but the oil, electricity, and agua aren't.

[Steel]

Weeks ago, I sent a letter (email) to our beloved Texas governor stating my repulsion toward the invasion of our borders. I made the contention that this is a state department issue. Yesterday I received a response from him by letter. It had the usual policalease, but did conclude by making a statement to the effect that this is a federal govt issue and that I should contact my US representative....

[bullet44]

Plain and simple illegal immigration "and" over
population is a threat to freedom in our country,
you can throw percentages out until the end of
the world and it still comes up the same.This is
"not" a race issue as some would like to make it,
it is common sense.!
The Mexican rich send the poor here in order to
make money for them, the wealth/greedy in America
use this labor for the same purpose.
Again nothing wrong with controlled legal immigration. But this country cannot survive the
present rate of growth and continue with present
living standards.

[ahenry]

Longeyes, thank you. You have pointed out one thing that is a direct result of illegal immigration and is not due to government intrusion. Let us delve into this a bit.

I am a bit at a loss as to understand just how a person without a voter registration or a valid drivers license can actually vote. In fact according to madmike (from G.B.) he can’t even vote. Be that as it may though, if those two documents are falsified the perpetrator would be breaking an existing law. If this is truly going on perhaps we should work on enforcing the laws already on the books....
If a person does not have either of those two documents then it is my understanding that they can’t vote. I don’t have facts to support that but I believe that is the case. Perhaps you could show otherwise? As far as actual immigrants voting I have seen in numerous places and IIRC you even seemed to agree, that legal immigrants probably had a better grasp on our freedoms and what it meant to keep them than most “natives”. I think we can see the evidence of that in our own members like ArmySon, and Oleg Volk, and madmike not to mention the many others here that we don’t even know are immigrants.

We keep hearing that illegals pay in more than they pay out.

Please read what I wrote carefully. I made no mention of illegal immigration in that comment (referring to the NRC 1997 study). By definition illegals aren’t paying any taxes (otherwise they risk deportation) tightening the borders (as you seem to prefer) will actually increase this problem. I can offer a solution to this specific problem right here. If the borders were opened completely then all those sneaking across the border (estimates are at about 2 percent of total immigration) that are forced to work for virtually nothing and often for less than minimum wage, because of their illegal status, would be able to find jobs more suited to their ability. And more importantly move them into a taxable category. Moving them into the category of immigrants that are legal and can look for good jobs as well as starting them paying taxes eliminate the specific problem you bring up. Based exclusively on that understanding your desires towards immigration are going to create more problems than mine.

I think I asked this before: when we have another thirty or forty million people in the U.S., most of them probably in the West, where in hell is the water going to come from? Empty space is there, yes, but the oil, electricity, and agua aren't.

You did indeed, and I answered it...
Throughout our history there have been resources that at a particular point in time seem to be irreplaceable. However, by looking back at history we can see that every time a resources seemed to be at an end an alternative was produced. In fact the less there is of a resource the greater the incentive to find and produce an alternative. We can even see the dawning alternatives to fossil fuels today. I would expect our grandchildren (or some generation in the near future) to have zero need for fossil fuels. As far as water is concerned that is a rather ridiculous concern similar to fearing the usage of oxygen. Water is a constantly renewing resource.

[AZ]

Mexico says legalize crossers or no deal


By Tom Zoellner
The Arizona Republic
June 22, 2001


Mexico will not sign any border agreement that fails to include the legalization of the 3 million to 4 million undocumented Mexican citizens already living in the United States, Mexico's foreign minister said Thursday.


"It's the whole enchilada or nothing," Jorge Castañeda told Latino journalists meeting in Phoenix. "We can't slice it one piece by one piece."

Mexico will ask for a full range of civil rights benefits for Mexicans in the United States, including Social Security numbers, driver's licenses, health care, resident college tuition and the right to join trade unions.

Legalization is the most crucial point in Mexico's four-pronged immigration agenda, which includes establishing an effective guest-worker program, ending border violence and exempting Mexico from quotas on visas.

Castañeda will represent Mexico in negotiations Sept. 4 with U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft and Secretary of State Colin Powell on a comprehensive agreement on border issues. Some of the specific civil rights proposals, such as driver's licenses, are already being sought in Arizona and other states by Juan Hernandez, head of Mexico's Office for Mexicans Abroad.

The dehydration deaths of 14 migrants in the desert east of Yuma last month lends a "sense of urgency" to the talks, Castañeda said.

It is the first time in recent history the United States has lifted immigration policy to the level of international diplomacy. Previously it was treated as a domestic issue.

"This is totally, radically new," Castañeda told the annual gathering of the National Association of Hispanic Journalists at Phoenix Civic Plaza.

Already, some progress has been made. Specific agreements on border safety issues will be made public today at joint announcements in Mexico City and Washington.

Mexico's overarching goal in the immigration talks is to "restore the concept of circularity" and allow Mexican workers to circulate freely from job sites in the United States to family homelands in Mexico, Castañeda said.

Those seasonal migration patterns have been in place for more than a century. Recent immigration policies have discouraged circularity, giving Mexicans added incentive to stay in the United States once they have made the dangerous border crossing.

Castañeda shied away from discussing the politically charged topic of amnesty for border crossers during his remarks in Phoenix, choosing the words "regularization" and "legalization," instead.

Much hinges on the exact meaning of these words, said Mark Krikorian, director of the Washington-based Center for Immigration Studies.

Proponents of guest-worker programs, such as Sen. Phil Gramm, R-Texas, have balked at using the "A" word, "amnesty," which is favored by some advocates for immigrants. Amnesty would provide access to green cards, which signify permanent residence and are a step toward citizenship.

Gramm proposes to allow Mexican guest workers to stay in the United States for a limited time, after which they would be required to go home. They could apply again to be guest workers once they had stayed south of the border for a prescribed period, but could not become citizens.

Some advocates for immigrants are seeking to achieve effective amnesty by promoting "earned adjustment." That would make migrants eligible for green cards after a certain time as guest workers.

"The word 'amnesty' has been used almost exclusively to mean permanent residence, but 'regularize' has been used in a variety of ways," Krikorian said. "It can mean different things to different people."

By talking of legalization, Castañeda "may be making a deliberate effort to avoid committing himself" on any of the guest-worker proposals, Krikorian said.


Republic Washington bureau reporter Jerry Kammer contributed to this article.

http://www.arizonarepublic.com/news/...staneda22.html