Glock Perfection?????????????

[VonFatman]

See ya.

[leedesert]

I find it quite embarrasing that we have entertained the weasel for as long as we have.

Weasel,
When you post something that obviously has not been proven anywhere else you should list your sources either by URL or at least the publication name and date. Otherwise, all your info is self generated poo poo.
I won't comment on the origional topic because the Glock pistol has been tested by far more qualified people and organizations then yourself.

Snubnose,
I think you fail to undertand that while this feels like a public forum it's not. It's privately run and open to members who follow the membership agreement. If you can't abide then go away.

[BB]

No, don't stop now; lets discuss this some more! Or maybe something similar? How 'bout the existence of Santa Claus? Obviously this topic needs discussion, since there are so many sightings every year, and so many people (although young) believe him to exist; therefore there MUST be merrit in the discussion, right?

[BelaHedgehog]

Hey Fed, nevermind all the namecalling and simply go back to the discussion you wanted in the first place. Filter those folks who are just feeling angry and talk to the rest of us. Failure to do so may be construed as yielding to their position. ... Where's the stats, man?

Oh yeah, to complicate things further(as if that needed doing), I'd like to throw in the idea that a safety lever, grip, etc. can complicate the operating procedure of a firearm, leading to other unsafe conditions. I'm sure more than a handful of us have heard the spooky words: "I thought the safety was on".

I have yet to hear of an incident of a Glock going off for any other reason than a trigger pull. I won't discount the possibility, but you'd have to do something to muck up the firing pin safety first.

[Topgun77th]

As much FUN as I was having reading the posts, I thought I would weigh in. I confess...I'm Glock owner / carrier. I caught this bug back in the early nintys before there was a cure...I thought I would lighten the mood. Nice try. Anyways, I been a range instructor with all levels of handelers with all kinds of firearms. I have seen new recruits and old patrol dogs shoot alot of the combat tupperware. I have not witnessed a single unintended discharge. So this figures out to be something roughly like this. 20 +/- students per class X, 1000 rds per student per class, X 3 classes a year, times 8 years = 480,000 rounds, probabley a little less since the early nintys some still carried wheelguns, including me. Well, even half of that is a lot of rounds with a failure. I've had 50,000 rounds through my G with out a wrong bang. The only mishap that I heard of was Poor BasXXX. had deceided to field strip a G-22 with out unloading it, checking the chamber, removing the mag, racking the slide, visual and tactically feeling for an empty chamber. He sat down at a table with three others, pulled his G out pointed it towards the ground which was right down one of his legs and pulled the trigger. The .40 exited his foot and he spent many weeks in recuperation. Very easy for that to have been a fatal wound. But, how could that be a failure of the Glock? The man violated so many safety rules that this " accident " was only a matter of time. Not to be unsensitive to the guy but there it is. This guy could have hurt himself with anything that day. Just a thought, safety is between the ears not in the hand.

Kids, play nice.
Think Safe / Stay safer C

Sorry kids, Eject! Eject! Eject! I'M punching out. ZZZZZZZ
1/28

[Edited by Topgun77th on 01-28-2001 at 09:55 PM]

[Mike Irwin]

OK, time for me to jump in, just for the heck of it.

But also because I know one of the training officers for the Washington, DC, Metro Police.

A little background context that is not provided in TFW's original post, but which is provided in the Washington Post's extensive write-up on the problems encountered when officers were armed with the Glock.

About the same time the transition was made, DC was under court order to drastically increase its hiring of minority police officers (this would later come back to haunt the District for a number of reasons).

Around the same time, training budgets slashed due to the onging financial crisis in the District.

The training issue was greatly complicated by the fact that, due to the crushing influx of new officers, along with the budget drawdowns, officer training at ALL levels suffered. Some officers were apparently released onto the street with only about 1/4 of their required firearms training. Many of these officers apparently never fired the qualification course.

Lo and behold, all of the accidental discharge issues start cropping up.

Is anyone really surprised by that? Should they be?

But there's also another interesting little sidelight. All of those officers, the ones who came on new because of the court order? They apparently had discharge rates that were MUCH higher than other groups within the MPD.

Why?

Apparently a couple of reasons.

1. Total unfamiliarity with firearms (at least older officers had been trained with their revolvers).

2. In the effort to comply with the court orders, many of the education requirements were totally ignored for new candidates. One saying about this time was "If you can breathe, you can be a cop in DC." Perhaps not a direct correlary, but a less educated, or less educationally capable, person may not be able to fully comprehend what needs to happen to handle a weapon safely.

3. Reduced training schedule.

4. Inherent design of the Glock.

DC has continued to battle this training problem for the past few years.

My friend, who is an MPD training officer, is a 17 year veteran. He's been carrying the Glock for years, and had trained hundreds of officers in its use.

He feels that 99% of the accidental discharges with the Glock could be solved by a better training program.

But, even with the fact that he's got perhaps some of the best firearms handling abilities I've ever seen, he blew the tips off of two of his fingers a couple of years ago while on the range.

How? In his own words, "by not paying *#$(&$)(&#$ attention to what I was doing."

And that, he feels, is the reason that virtually all of the problems happen. No an inherent problem with the gun.

[leedesert]

Thank you Mike for that moment of fresh air.

[PLASTIC SIG]

One would think, if thier employer required them to operate a backhoe, they would insist on training. I guess since all it takes to operate a gun is the simple pull of a trigger, little or no training is required.


Tim :O

[neil pilling]

Well said mike. I have to agree that almost all discharges from a glock pistol come from the trigger being pulled.

A note to all of the anti-glockaphiles(?)

You people say that when a subject that is anti-glock comes up an entire army of people begin to froth at the mouth to defend their pet pistols. Well your right there is alot of people who own glocks, myself included, and when the topic of the glock being unsafe comes up most of these glock owners will say That has never happened to me. And guess what personal experience will beat written opinion every time.

[krept]

I DOUBT they would have passed the new California guidelines... they were actively looking to ban models/makes for that very reason.

[WESHOOT2]

Who dissed Santa?



--------------------------------------

"all my fantasies are factory fantasies"

[12-34hom]

Remember folks.. the only thing perfect is imperfection...that being said;

Glocks sensitive trigger?? That must be some kind of inside joke.

If your not smarter than the weapon your handling = don't handel it.

Glocks are fine combat weapons, along with 1911's, Sigs, etc... all are inherently dangerous and should be treated as such, weapon saftey and retention are part of the owners resposibility to learn and practice with an ONGOING basis.

These types of threads always seem to go from bad to worst, i don't know why; but thats the way of it.

[dwestfall]

I have personal proof of the safety problems plagueing Glock. I managed to injure myself with my Glock last weekend, a direct result of those evil high-capacity magazines which only by legal loophole I am still allowed to posess.

When doing a reload I managed to get some skin on my right hand pinched between the mag baseplate and the mag well! HEAVENS!! I now wear the mark of Cain -- a pinhead-sized blood blister. I can't believe that this gun is allowed on the market!! My hand-model career could have been seriously jeapordized!

As a result of this I might have to sell my 5 Glocks, because I obviously am 5150 with them and if I lose my hand-model job I won't be able to pay for my DSL.

I will say however that in the 8 years I've been carrying them they've never gone off by themselves, and they've never gone off when I didn't intend them to.

I was once told that firearms have things called "safety devices" that are designed to prevent accidental firings, but the only REAL safety is between the ears. If that safety fails, the others aren't worth a damn.

Since my REAL safety seems to be in good working order, I don't think I really need the other safeties. I could probably do without the "trigger do-hickie(TM)" with perfect safety.

People who accidentally shoot themselves with Glocks are doing us all a favor -- preemptively removing the threat to public safety.

L....O....L!!!!! This thread busts me up. Do you know that milk causes cancer in rats?

[Cmc]

Moderator some of us appreciate you keeping this forun
a ladies and gentlemen forum.

As far as the glock issue I believe it is a training issue
and most LEO I know are not firearms fans like most of us.
I believe that a LEO weapon should have a safety as this
feature has save many officers lives when the weapon is taken away from the officer. That itself is the reason why
IMHO glocks are not suited for LEO's.
Glocks are fine weapons but they require lots of training.
I dont own a glock ,I considered buying one recently but instead bought a rugerP-97, american made, long trigger pull and a lot cheaper with a stainless steel components.

[slojim]

Didn't want to be the only TFL'er not responding to this one... I shot a couple glocks looking for my first gun, and I thought they were excellent guns, but I was not at all comfortable with the arrangement. Maybe when I have a few more years under my belt, and even then, I don't think so, not for me. And not to call all the fury on to myself, I think the "better training" argument is overdone. All the training in the world won't prevent a momentary lapse of concentration, be it due to familiarity or suprise. Often, (not just with glocks, or guns), a repeated call for more training points to a problem that could be engineered out, or a good product being used in the wrong situation.

[9x19]

'Fed'Weasel,

"...I have gathered from various sources across the net..."

Keep in mind, please, that the 'net is one place where garbage can, and often does, pass for gospel.

Perhaps if YOU actually did the research (buy a Glock, shoot a Glock, carry a Glock daily), you'd not need to borrow from other sources of dubious credibility in order to "waste bandwith".

I've done the research and the Glock is as safe a pistol as has ever been built. Is it idiot proof? Absolutely not! Should it be? Absolutely NOT!

[TheFederalistWeasel]

Okay Glockers,

I have, for the most part held my breath due to the nature and content of some of the posts to this thread. But since its seems to have calmed down to a dull roar here I’ll jump in and make my point.

Some of you have chimed in with personal experiences about how, “ain’t never happened to me”. One of you has claimed to have fired.

“About 50,000 rounds thru my 1st gen. G21, about 22,000 thru my 2nd gen. G21, maybe 7,000 each thru my G19 and G30, and only less than 1,000 thru my G22 (it's brand new), I never had even heard of such dangerous stuff like these 3.5 LB triggers and short light pull? Give us a break, first of all, it's a 3.5lb CONNECTOR, not trigger, and yielding about 6.5lbs plus pull.”

And yet you haven’t heard or read about the 3.5-pound trigger? It’s out there, I found reference to it on several Glock sites ranging from Glock talk to Glock Works a site that specialized in parts and accessories for Glocks.

Another said, “Ref: "Accidental Discharges". There is no such thing as an accidental discharge...just negligent discharges. Yes, there was one officer’s weapon that had some problems, causing Glock to issue an upgrade several years ago. Does that mean we should condemn the entire line of weapons? One of my coworkers had a true Accidental Discharge with his 1911 45 ACP, blowing a hole in our dispatch window several years ago (later traced to a defective part). Does that one incident mean we should condemn 1911's now?”

Now wait one sir, you said, “There is no such thing as an accidental discharge...just negligent discharges.”

Then you say, “One of my coworkers had a true Accidental Discharge with his 1911 45 ACP, blowing a hole in our dispatch window several years ago (later traced to a defective part).”

Are you trying to say that only Glocks don’t have accidental discharges while admitting others do, or did you mix up your terminology?

You also stated,

“The total number of bad Glock incidents is, in large part, a creation of the Internet. The same incidents are repeated time and time again, on numerous boards, resurrected over and over again. I believe that distorts the true minimal number of such incidents. Given the total number of Glocks in service, you are bound to get a few incidents.”

And this explains why there are so many lawsuits centering on this one line of handguns?
I don’t think a judge would allow an attorney to present, “I found it on the Internet, yer honor!” As an argument.

“I don't know how they can claim the limp wristing problem is unique to Glocks. You can have a limp wristing problem with any semi auto when the weapon is held improperly so as to negate the recoil assisted functioning of the weapon.”

Sir, I have seen a P7 fired while being held upside down and one handed with zero malfunctions. I personally have fired my Sig 220 while moving, lying prone and even on my side with no problems. I have seen so many colts fired by “trick shooters” fired in just about every conceivable fashion possible with no malfunctions its funny. And I had never even heard of “limp wristing” until the Glock came along.

Let me guess you will say the reason the Colts didn’t fail had to do with them being a trick gun? Well, is it not the case that most true target pistols have a nasty tendency to jam due to their tight tolerances? According to folks I know who understand this stuff they do and even according to the manufacturers of target barrels. They to say this.

Another poster said,

“Something I'd be interested in hearing about is the number of discharges when no one is covering the trigger. Where can we get the details of incident where the Louisville officer was bending over to tie his shoelaces? What was the cause of the discharge?

The incident was video taped by a surveillance camera in the police station and was submitted in court as evidence when he sued Glock and the Police Dept for a faulty weapon.
All he did was put his foot up on a small stool, then lean over to reach his shoelaces to tie them and the gun went off!
He won by settlement and Glock would not disclose the amount the paid him, as they have done many times with these lawsuits.

Also, how do these statistics stand up to those of other makes of guns in widespread police/military use?”

This would be a good opportunity to dig up some fact on your own; you might be surprised by what you find.

Another poster said,

“Well weasel I hope that you have an open mind for a reply to your post. Except for the incidents you stated about the guns discharging while in a holster (I would need to see the findings of the investigation conducted after the incident to make a statement about those discharges)”

I guess you will have to contact the individual departments themselves and request those documents what I used was info I gathered from various sources across the internet and a few folks I know. But let me guess, you will scream, “You can’t trust anything you find on the Internet!”
Okay, I agree if I was reporting on the New World Order, Black Helicopters or the Delta Force Hit squad Bill Klinton secretly attached to FEMA under direct control of Janet Reno hiding out in our basements my info may be tainted. But I seriously doubt the Washington Post and various handgun magazines would fabricate such a tale and give Glock the grounds to sue the pants off of them now would they?

Yet another posted,

“Weasel- you don't believe everything you read-Do you? I am an avid Glock fan. Why? Because of Glock's excellent safety features while still allowing for quick self defense. Like bcgunner said- A Glock will not fire unless the trigger is pulled. End of story.

That’s my point! It’s extremely easy for the gun to go off!!!
To quote some Glockers, “Pull trigger gun go bang, don’t pull trigger no bang!”

Again,

“I live in Louisville, KY and have paid close attention to the Police depts. Accidental firings. Yes it's true that the LPD rallied around their Glocks when they were getting bad publicity. This was because when the smoke cleared and all truths were known-In each case the officer had pulled his or her trigger. If you pull the trigger on a revolver, do you think it will fire? Guess what? So will a Glock. Isn't that just the neatest! What will they think of next?”

The gun I questioned out of Louisville PD was holstered and never touched when it went off, much like the incident in DC where a cop shot himself with his holstered Glock while sitting upright in his patrol cat just putting on his seat belt!


Guys, again I did not intend for this post to attract such juvenile response. I intended to have a solid discussion about the pro’s and cons of this handgun. I would hope that we still might be able to.


TFW

[9x19]

'Fed' Weasel,

It would really be much easier to "...have a solid discussion about the pro’s and cons of this handgun..." if you could bring some FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE, rahter than hearsay to the discussion.

I have no doubt some lawyers go to court with 'net facts. Bringing suit doesn't mean they win, it just means they smell deep pockets and will try anything, you know?

Since you are enomored of the "3.5 pound triggers", please understand that the terminology used by those you've read is faulty, and so, since that is what you choose to rely on, your terminology is also faulty.

Glock manufactures three different "connectors" with varying angles of release for the trigger bar. The 3.5 pound connector, in my First Hand Experience (which you apparently lack), does not yield a 3.5 pound trigger pull when installed in an otherwise factory pistol. In my First Hand Experience (which you apparently lack), doing such gives you about a 5 pound pull. Lighter than the factory normal 6.5 pound pull, but not drastically so. I have 3.5 pound connectors installed in all four of my Glock pistols and after some judicious polishing of the connector, trigger bar, and firing pin safety plunger, my triggers are abut 4.25 pounds... NOT 3.5.

My First Hand Experience (which you apparently lack) with these pistols, and their internal workings proves to me that anyone claiming a Glock discharged without a full pull on the trigger is being... fanciful in the hope of shifting responisbility.

Through First Hand Experience (which you apparently lack), I've learned the Glock's striker is not under enough tension, with the trigger forward, to cause the discharge of a round should the trigger bar break and allow the striker to move forward. In addition, my First Hand Experience (which you apparently lack) has discovered that the internal firing pin safety is not disengaged until the trigger is pulled to the rear. This means, that should the1 trigger be forward and the trigger bar break, the striker is physically blocked from reaching the primer of a chambered round.

In my First Hand Experience (which you apparently lack), the only way to get a round to discharge in a Glock is to pull the trigger back so the trigger bar may draw the striker back far enough to gain enough tension in the striker spring, while the trigger bar also is back far enough to disengage the firing pin safety.

If your First Hand Experience differs, please state in what manner and I'll be pleased to discuss it. Bear in mind, however, if you have only hearsay to discuss, no matter the source, you really can't defend it very well, and as such, it will make for a short discussion...

[Ric24581]

As an officer, a trainer, and a Glock armorer, here are my observations concerning unintentional discharges with the Glock.

I have yet to see a case of a Glock discharged *in the field* that was not the direct result of an officer's finger being on the trigger. As a trainer, I have observed that the vast majority of officers know better and take this training to heart...but that there is a percentage of officers who still put their finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be there. I had students in my classes last year from a neighboring agency that actually *taught* their officers to put their finger on the trigger when covering a threat. I had a memo sent to that agency advising them that they would not be welcome back if they did not change their training.

During simunition training of approximately 400 officers, I personally observed the cameraman taping the scenario get "flinch-shot" 15 times. 10 of those cases were officers from the neighboring agency. The other 5 were officers from my agency. All offenders had their finger on the trigger prior to the shooting (on video tape). It should be noted that the first excuse used by the lead firearms instructor of that agency was "we carry Beretta's and this wouldn't have happened with the heavier pull". No, it wouldn't have happened if they kept their fingers off the trigger!

For those who want to blame the "light" trigger pull of the Glock for this, I can tell you from personal experience that we had the same problem with the S&W double action revolvers that we used for simunition training before we ordered our supply of Glock simunition guns. Finger on trigger + startle reaction = BANG whether it's 5.5lbs or 12lbs. I've seen it. I've taped it.

Now, the second category of discharges with Glocks...and probably the most common...occurs at cleaning time. If there is a "flaw" in the design it is that you must pull the trigger before you disassemble the pistol. This requires that the person make sure that the magazine is out and the chamber is clear (I train my students to look at magazine well and chamber, feel chamber with finger, and say "this gun is empty" to try to focus their attention). My agency has had a number of "cleaning" discharges and I've personally witnessed one (he racked the slide, dropped the mag, pulled the trigger). If you get lazy or distracted, you can have a discharge when you try to disassemble the pistol...simple as that. We had to change our range policy so that officers had to disassemble on the firing line pointing downrange due to discharges in the cleaning area.

The third category I've seen occurs when the Glock is holstered. Despite the claim of one officer that the holster flap got caught in the trigger guard (which could not be duplicated), all of these cases have boiled down to holstering with your finger on the trigger.

The fourth category is mechanical failure. I am familiar with only one case...one of our officers hit the side of the holstered Glock with is PR-24 during bag training and it discharged. Glock sent armorers to look at the gun and after initially claiming it was modified (it wasn't) they issued the "upgrade" that just about everyone who owns a Glock is aware of. This would suggest, however, that there *is* enough spring tension on the striker to fire a round if the striker goes forward from the pre-staged position.

I do not doubt the other "in the holster" discharges described in this thread...I would want to know what the determined cause was for the discharge. It appears they were the result of movement by the officer (bending over, etc.) so was it a holster malfunction resulting in a pulled trigger or was it a mechanical malfunction inside the pistol?

Frankly, I don't blame the design of the Glock on any of the categories of unintentional discharges except those shown to be mechanical failure. All of the other discharges are caused by having your finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be, or not verifying the chamber is empty prior to disassembly.

Ric

[jdthaddeus]

No offense TFW, but you yet again expose your ignorance on the topic (not meant as a flame, but a fact). If your information on the Glock is garnered from internet readings, you first of all got some bad info and second of all misinterpreted it. Your misinterpretation is seen above. THE GLOCK DOES NOT, NEVER HAS and CAN NOT HAVE A 3.5 POUND TRIGGER. It is the TRIGGER CONNECTOR that is 3.5 pounds, giving the gun an over 5 pound trigger pull (and that connector is for competition, just like ALL guns have light trigger packages for competition).
For comparison, a defensive carry 1911 single action trigger pull is usually 4.5 pounds total and a competition 1911 trigger pull at about 2 pounds or less. The Glock trigger is not light nor is it short.

Let's get it through everyone's head that a Glock does not come with a 3.5 pound trigger, even with the lightest trigger job on the competition series. In fact my stock Glock with a standard trigger connector has closer to an 8 pound trigger break out of the box. Enough drivel about the 3.5 pound Glock trigger; it does not exist, even on most highly customized guns. It would take work and custom parts to even get a 5 pound trigger pull on a competition Glock, and even then the first trigger pull is long, taking conscious action to pull it.

The reason that all of this is important is that the Glock was designed for simplicity and reliability. Under life threatening conditions, these two items are paramount. The Glock GOES OFF EVERY TIME THE TRIGGER IS PULLED, thank God, because it is reliable. And, IT ONLY GOES OFF WHEN THE TRIGGER IS PULLED, PERIOD, because it is an extremely SAFE pistol if one simple rule is followed (other guns take more than one simple rule, and those rules are often forgotten, so they have their own set of problems).
You can take a loaded working Glock, and throw it, kick it, drop it, slam it, hammer it, do whatever you want with it and IT WILL NOT GO OFF UNTIL THE TRIGGER IS PULLED, PERIOD, because the trigger must be pulled to disengage the safeties that block the striker from contacting the primer.

The guy that negligently set his Glock off while tying his shoes, pulled the trigger one way or another. The working Glock does not go off without the trigger pulled. I am told he had the loaded Glock in his hand, and tryed to untie his shoes, and while manipulating the shoe laces, his finger pulled the trigger. It was his fault, not the gun's. Why was he holding a loaded gun while tying his shoelaces? The guy was inept, and tried to blame the gun for his stupidity. How many times have we heard people that shoot someone and say "the gun just went off"....yeah, right after you pulled the trigger! It is natural for people to blame the gun so that they do not get in trouble. Fact is, guns don't fire without someone shooting them.

The Officer(s) that have had their Glocks "go off" while holstering them usually forgot to pull their trigger out of the trigger guard. Just like cops that forget to decock a SIG before holstering it, or put the safety on a SA before holstering it. This problem is not new to Glocks!!! No design is perfect, they all demand basic user rules.

If you understand the Glock design, you would understand that a working Glock CANNOT go off without pulling the trigger to engage the striker action. It is impossible for an operational Glock to just "go off" more than any other pistol to just "go off".



Regarding "limpwristing", I was over on the 1911 forums and one shooter was having jamming problems. You know what the suggestion and remedy was? He was limpwristing it. Gee, other guns can jam too when you limpwrist them.


The thing about Glocks is that they are POPULAR. That, as well as the internet, and now suddenly every problem is blamed on Glocks. Why are there so many lawsuits on Glocks (if indeed there are)? Because there are so many Glocks.

News flash: These problems have been around longer than any of us have been alive, the Glock is just popular, so it happens a lot with Glocks. All guns blow up and always have. All pistols can be limpwristed. All guns are unsafe when people handle them poorly, just like all cars are unsafe when people handle them poorly.


IME, the Glock is a good beginners' gun. I have taught a lot of people, namely women, on the Glock. It is very simple: pull the trigger it goes bang, don't pull it and it doesn't. It is one rule for the beginner to remember, and it has been very easy in my experience and others'. Don't put your finger on the trigger until you are ready for it to go bang. Once you want it to go bang, just pull the trigger (you want that ease of operation when it comes to self defense). No one I know or have trained has ever had a problem with that, and when a the beginners I teach pick up a Glock, they don't have to give me that quizzical look and search for the safety. Just pull the trigger when you want to shoot, and don't when you don't.




Regarding ND's,
I would like to see statistical analysis showing that there are more ND with Glocks now than with all other guns before.

So there are some ND's with Glocks (a small number of them in a huge group of people using them). Does that prove that they are more unsafe? Only after you show that there are more accidents now than before as well as with other designs per capita usage.

I think Tamara stated that very well with her GM example, but maybe in metaphorical terms that many people won't understand. A few (and even several) stories of Glock's triggers being pulled on accident means nothing without considering how many are in use, and noting how many ND's there have been with other types of guns.

I heard and witness MANY ND's with DA autos while the person (cops) tried to manipulate the decocker or safety, or forgot to. No design is idiot proof, because idiots are so creative.



I don't see any need to get worked up over all of this, but most of us are not going to sit and watch you spread erroneous data and conclusions.



As for people that just don't like Glocks....hey don't buy one. No skin off my nose. I like em, so I carry em (as well as 1911's).






[Edited by jdthaddeus on 01-28-2001 at 09:58 PM]

[Oleg Volk]

Folks, could someone explain to me why the health of so many egos is hinged on the ability to prove that Glocks are/aren't junk? Moreover, why is that issue so important that some of us are forgetting our manners and acting like the knuckledraggers we are supposed to be if the HCI is to be believed...

[ArmySon]

Last year in Missouri, 12-34hom brought his Glock 20. The grip was entirely way too uncomfortable for me. Add the recoil of a 10mm and I ran into 5 jams. 12-34hom stated that he never experienced a jam with the G20 at any other time. I admit, I was limpwristing it a bit.

So those of you who scream and yell that limpwristing does not cause a Glock to jam, explain what happened to me then. Was it limpwristing? Whas it a mechanical problem?

I also second what Oleg stated. Why are there so many people that get extremely sensitive in proving the Glock is the greatest/worst thing on earth?

[Edited by ArmySon on 01-29-2001 at 03:37 AM]

[denfoote]

OK, time to weigh in again. Since it has been brought up, I must comment on the (deadly ) Glock 3.5lb connector. I have this particular instrument of "death" installed on two of my Glocks. They just happen to be my carry pistols. Yeah, I have heard all the arguements about AD's, "you will get "killed" in court", etc.... You know what, it's all bunk!!! I don't hear anybody giving those of us who just happen to carry a 1911 "cocked, and locked" any grief!!!! What is the single action pull of a 1911, mmmmmmm??? My G30, and G26 emulate the 1911 in condition one, that is all. I prefer it. I shoot better with it. My finger stays off the trigger, so I do not fear it. (I hope that this far into this little discussion, nobody still believes that Glocks "go off" by their little lonesome. ) My Glocks live in holsters that cover the trigger. What is the friggin problem here???????

[magnet]

I will try to remember to back out of any thread that
begins with a *lengthy* post.

[twoblink]

This is the perfect time (I feel) to do a Steyr M40 plug.

It has a safety condition "2", with a manual safety. You don't have to use it, but seeing as some of these officers keep applying 5.5lbs the distance of .5", I think they should. If they choose not to use it, then it would become like a glock, trigger safety + 2 internal safeties...

I was afraid that something like that might happen when I am less familiar with the gun, and so I wanted to option of an external manual safety... I couldn't get that in a Glock and so I got a Steyr... Name all the reasons to buy a Glock, Steyr's got it. Name all the reasons to buy a Steyr, and Glock might not have it...

Simple choice I thought...

Albert