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April 11, 2024, 06:23 PM | #1 |
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New Background Check Rule
Well the ATF and White House are at it again working to eliminate Biden votes.
What is really the meaning of the new rule? Is it at the proposal stage or do they have it in the federal register already? Anything else I should be asking? I hate to say it, but the only thing they do well is communicating things in a way that nobody knows what it means. What is the new test for if you are a dealer or not? https://www.npr.org/2024/04/11/12440...und-check-rule |
April 11, 2024, 09:08 PM | #2 |
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First point, NPR is not a place to get unbiased news, in my opinion.
Next point, several of the terms used are either completely false or very misleading. One of them is "unlicensed dealers" in firearms. "dealing" in firearms without an FFL is a Federal crime, has been since 68. Slippery slope, covered in oil, "dealing" is defined different ways, and currently seem to be used to cover anyone selling their personal guns for a profit. In previous years, the operative term was "engaged in the business" meaning someone who regularly sold guns for profit with the intent of making some or all of their income from that. Note that is NOT what is being said by the current administration. Using their current buzzwords and their definitions this is an attempt to require background checks where Federal LAW does not require them. Rather than work through Congress to get the actual law changed, they are trying to get what they want done via administrative fiat. That is NOT good government, and is more than a bit underhanded and sneaky seeming. I have my own issue with background checks, but that's a topic of its own, I think.
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April 11, 2024, 09:38 PM | #3 |
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It will be interesting to see what the impact of SCOTUS/Chevron Deference is going to be...
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April 12, 2024, 03:31 AM | #4 |
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I'm concerned about the definition of "dealer" and the implications.
Not long ago the BATF (if I'm correct) was OK with up to 5 guns sold per year. Please don't consider that legal advice,it may be wrong. They did not want non -ffl gunshow dealers using gunshows as a side gig. As far as background checks at gunshows, at least in my state of Colorado,its a big nothing burger for the illusion that "They did something" In my experience,ANY gunshow firearm sale ,private party or ffl, requires a 4473 and NICS check. There is a transfer table where non-ffls get the business done. There is a dark unknown around transfers to family or inheritance. The hearsay is that its bad but I'm going to see how the courts handle it before I freak out and move to Wyoming. |
April 12, 2024, 08:08 AM | #5 |
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Being "tongue-in-cheek"; all future sales from my table will be to "cousins". As we all have descended from Adam & Eve, I see everybody as a related family member. Welcome to my show table "Cousin"! I'm now just an elderly citizen trying to unload my "iron" before I take the "dirt knap".
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April 12, 2024, 11:54 AM | #6 | |
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April 12, 2024, 12:09 PM | #7 | |||||||
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https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-2...-478/subpart-B Quote:
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The rule is being proposed BECAUSE of Congress. Ever heard of the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act? It been law for almost two years. This law, passed by Congress makes this ATF rule possible.
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April 12, 2024, 12:20 PM | #8 | |||||
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April 12, 2024, 03:02 PM | #9 | |
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According to the NSSF, [some] Republicans in Congress think the new rule exceeds the authority of the BATFE because Congress has already included a definition in federal law, and the BATFE has no authority to change that. From an NSSF e-mail blast:
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April 12, 2024, 10:51 PM | #10 |
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Dogtown is right I believe. I think a key thing here are the words "engaged in business." Engaging in business--that has a definable meaning and involves specific activities. Frequency is not one of them, other than it occurs repeatedly and the person engaged in it gains something of value in exchange. It doesn't have to be financial either, it can be "in kind" or bartering of favors with value. If it is advertised--and that results in customers--that is engaging in business.
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April 13, 2024, 07:29 AM | #11 |
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I’m just glad to see us discussing it. I struggled to find any facts to support what Biden was saying. He keeps rambling on about stopping online gun sales, but there are no illegal online gun sales as far as I know. They all require going through a licensed FFL dealer. Additionally, even though the law does not require the shipper to be an FFL, the anti’s have negotiated that with the shipping monopoly.
So what the is he talking about? If he wants to stop illegal online sales, he ought to jail Bezos for the illegal Glock switches he sold on his site. If you and I set up a site to sell Glock switches, we are going to jail, regardless of how we set up the site. |
April 13, 2024, 07:47 AM | #12 |
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There's another angle to this you might not be thinking about. Actual FFL holders have quite a few hoops to jump through and significant annual fees to pay--not to mention book-keeping requirements and possible on-demand investigations of themselves etc. I know this because I went through the process of applying for and received approval for multiple FFL licenses. Once I did the math, I quickly realized that the income I received from local friends who really were only interested in quick bargain basement prices--and it dawned on me it wasn't worth it and I resigned the licenses (yes, that has to be approved just like applying for them). It doesn't take long for established FFL businesses to get wind of somebody who is "circumventing" the requirements that they are burdened with--so don't necessarily expect them to have favorable dispositions towards people moving guns without FFL's.
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April 13, 2024, 01:22 PM | #13 | |||||||
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It's a simple application form, fingerprints and photo. Quote:
Thats about the most insignificant annual fees you'll ever pay. Quote:
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Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE |
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April 13, 2024, 02:53 PM | #14 |
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Very simply, if I understand this correctly, it's nothing more (or less!) than the BATFE attempting to classify anyone who sells a couple of firearms at a gun show as a "dealer," this requiring an FFL. It's not even about "kitchen table" FFLs -- it's about individuals who may decide to clear out a few guns from the safe that they haven't even looked at for years, or collectors who want to unload a few extras to make room for or to generate funds for some new acquisitions.
I imagine this would have significant implications in those free states where unregulated face-to-face sales are allowed. I don't happen to live in one of those free states, so I'm less certain about that.
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April 13, 2024, 03:34 PM | #15 | |
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I recall a lot being written about when the Clinton administration changed the FFL fee from $30 to $300, and if I recall right, it was annual... No doubt much else has also changed, since then...
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April 13, 2024, 04:02 PM | #16 | |
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Your statement that I didn't have a business plan--100% true. Which is why once I did the numbers I quickly bailed on the fantasy. I don't know about your situation--but everything I did was through the ATF field office in my state and then run up the flagpole through the FBI for final check and approval. As for "didn't have a business"--well, how can you have a business without the licenses? Again, I don't know about your application--but mine involved an interview/exam by the field office agent.
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"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk! Last edited by stagpanther; April 14, 2024 at 03:33 AM. |
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April 14, 2024, 10:41 AM | #17 |
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This may clarify things:
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regula...rspdf/download Q – What does it mean to be “engaged in the business" as a wholesale or retail dealer? A – A person is “engaged in the business” when the person devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business to predominantly earn a profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of the person’s personal collection of firearms. [emphasis added]
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April 14, 2024, 12:42 PM | #18 | |||
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An 01 has never been $300. Some FFL types, for Dealer/Manufacturer/Importer of Destructive Devices are $3000 initially and for each three year renweal.
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April 14, 2024, 12:43 PM | #19 | ||
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April 14, 2024, 12:52 PM | #20 | ||||
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[QUOTE]stagpanther
I had 4 or 5 of categories--because I also built things that involved the serialized receivers and did reloads--so I bought the manufacturer's licenses as well--that will run you/QUOTE] Did no one tell you that the 07FFL Manufacturer license allows one to do everything the 01 Dealer does and everything an 06 Manufacturer of Ammunition does? You don't need all three. Quote:
Who on earth considers all business expenses as an "annual fee"? Not me or any business I know. Annual fee might be your $500 SOT payment if you want to deal in or manufacture NFA firearms. My first year expenses related to my gun business totaled less than $300. I bought business cards. Thats not really "significant". Quote:
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Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE Last edited by dogtown tom; April 14, 2024 at 01:01 PM. |
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April 14, 2024, 12:57 PM | #21 |
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I’m so confused. It is like they didn’t change anything, but are making a big announcement that they did.
Additionally, let’s say I list a firearm for sale on here and sell it for more than I paid for it. Writing a post has some relation to this as does the profit, but then it still falls under occasional. I’ll be interested in the general consensus as to how this impacts used gun sales on forums. What is weird is generally you need an FFL to ship and FFL to receive. So how does this change? |
April 14, 2024, 01:08 PM | #22 | |||
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Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE |
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April 14, 2024, 01:20 PM | #23 |
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It changes nothing.
It does allow Biden some points with his idiot base. He's desperate. |
April 14, 2024, 01:34 PM | #24 |
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Dogtown Tom-
So, you don't perceive this as an infringement on personal firearms sales? Do you not think that the current administration and BATF want a background check done on every firearms sale? I do understand you value your FFL and do things correctly-as a dealer should, but it ALMOST sounds like you approve of additional regulations and infringement. |
April 14, 2024, 02:59 PM | #25 | |
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What I should have said is that nothing will change for the average gun owner. Why? Because the average gun owner is not a gun dealer who sells guns for profit and derives substantial income from his dealings. Doing that without a FFL has always been illegal. These pseudo, part time, amateur but active gun sellers will now get more attention.......or at least sweat a little more. Last edited by The Verminator; April 14, 2024 at 03:06 PM. |
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