I Just Don't Get The Allure of the HK P7 or HK Prices In General

[hksigwalther]

Eh, HK is just selling a minimum quantity of their products at the price people are willing to spend to maximize their profit. Pretty common for most companies. Like CWL posted, simple supply-demand. Certainly, they are riding on their past accomplishments and solid (product) history and you will pay for the name. Oh well, accept or move on.

[Handy]

If we are talking the value of guns, why are Glocks pushing $600?!! If Beretta could sell a machined, finished pistol with nearly 60 parts to Uncle Sam for $265, why should a gun with half the parts (most molded and stamped) go for so much? Glock has two parts that are "difficult" to make-slide and barrel. And the Glock can be assembled by school children on Nyquil.

Take apart a P7 and tell me that isn't twice the gun. And all that complexity gives you a super accurate, ambidextrous, fast firing and super safe pistol that does everything well.

[RogerC]

If P7's are "all that", why is there so many for sale posts featuring them?

It seems someone is always selling one here.

I traded one away years ago. Just too goofy for me.

[CWL]

Here's the reason why.

Hardchrome by Virgil Tripp.

Apologies for low quality of photo.

[CWL]

Left side.

[Nifer]

I own 2 HK firearms. I bought a used P7M8 in excellent condition, looked like it had never been fired. Got it with 3 mags and box with matching serial number for $700 out the door. Picked up a NIB HK USP9c with stainless slide on sale at a local gun dealer for $540.

I paid $515 for each my Glock and Beretta. My S&W scandium revolver was about that price as well. My Kimber custom CDP was significantly more then any of the others named. I also owned a Sig P239 .40 at one time that was $515. All except the kimber were only $25 less then the HK USP. If I had to do it all over again, I would have skipped the Beretta, Sig, and Glock and bought 3 more HKs at the sale. They are amazing firearms with excellent build. They are accurate and reliable right out of the box. They are excellent designs with well executed manufacturing. The USP feels far superior in my hand then any Glock ever well. I carry the USP as my CCW and have zero regrets to that decision.

People crying about the prices need to shop around more. I don't see people crying about Sig prices, when they are almost equal to that of the HKs. Also, HKs can be found at reasonable prices, just look. I've found excellent deals on both of my HKs, and will continue to look for more. They are excellent firearms that I expect will outlast my life span.

Would I pay full shelf price for another new HK? You bet. Only if I had to. I would first shop around and see what I could find. If nothing was found, I would bite the bullet pay full asking price.

If I had to sell all my guns but one, the USP would stay by my side. THe P7 would be a close second.

JR

[Tamara]

While USP pricing strikes me as a mite inflated, the price of a P7 makes plenty of sense. If there was ever a pistol unsuitable for mass-production, that'd be the one. It works like the dickens, but designing a pistol with clean-room tolerances, using eleventeen parts all milled or stamped from case-hardened unobtainium does not a result in a cheap-to-manufacture gun.

[faustulus]

Think of it this way:
The P7 is a BMW M3 SMG
All other guns are Camaros.
And if price is the only difference you see in those two vehicles then the P7 will never do anything for you.

[twoblink]

Hmm..

Do I want a $1200 HK P7, or 4 CZ75B's?? That's a TOUGH choice

Overpriced. Good pieces of hardware like BMW's, but like a BMW, way overpriced..

I contend that My Steyr or a glock or CZ will not hiccup and is just as accurate and durable; without the pricetag.

But if you own an HK, you can pose like this with it;

[twoblink]

faustulus,

All other guns are Camaros??? Ouch..

I own an Audi; let's see... an Audi S4 tuned to stage 3 will smoke a BMW M3 and still have enough money left to actually take the girl out... And of course, for all that money, you don't even get AWD...

The P7, it's a PeZ dispenser.. Good gun, I like it, I just don't $1200 like it...

[New_comer]

If quality is a feature you value less of, then nobody can convince you to think otherwise.

Compare the different modern handguns side by side, in and out, manual of arms and then you decide.

Read thru all the testimonials, torture tests, range reports, and general feedback on the guns' overall reputation.

If those still don't convince you, nothing will...

[Peter M. Eick]

Frankly I think it is a matter of if you understand or buy into the continous motion concept or you don't.

If you do (like me) then you say to yourself, "my gosh they only charge $1200 for this?" And then you buy 3 more of them just in case they wise up and charge the $5000 that it is worth.

If you dont, you go around asking questions like "I just don't get the allure of the HK P7 or HK prices in General?"


The same thing can be said about the sig 210's, custom 1911's etc.


Finally, If you perception is that a Jennings 25 is all you need and is a great gun, you would probably ask the following question: "Why does Glock charge $550 for a chuck of plastic, I don't get the Allure of Glocks prices of plastic guns?"

It is all a matter of you perception and tastes.

[J.Bourne]

From everything I've read, I think the P7 may actually be OVER-ENGINEERED. Some of you afficianados have been touting this as a badge of pride. Over-Engineering is typically a bad thing regarding manufactured goods, b/c it adds layers of unnecessary complexity and parts (I see more promotional material emphasizing simplicity and fewer parts among firearms manufacturers today).

As far as the 'clean-room tolerances' that P7's are allegedly built to, does one really need that in a firearm? Im fact, aren't somewhat wider tolerances desirable as they assist reliability (you know, dropped the old WWII 1911 in the mud and it was built so loose it didn't even matter)?

BTW, the cheapest nib P7 I have found after originally posting this is half-past $1,300. For that, I'll take a Sig, a Glock AND a CZ, thank you very much.

But I also can appreciate the collector/historical side of the coin, and if one's not buying a "tool", can more easily appreciate that desire to spend the clams on a P7.

[SAWBONES]

OK, I'll weigh in.

"Over-Engineering is typically a bad thing regarding manufactured goods, b/c it adds layers of unnecessary complexity and parts."

Sour grapes.

The "over-engineering" sometimes attributed to H&K isn't the sort you describe.
In this case, the term simply refers to the point that the P7 is made to be far sturdier and more reliable than it has to be to fit into the particular market niche it occupies. There's no implication that its engineering is somehow excessive in a counter-productive way.

To borrow an elitist phrase from the Harley Davidson crowd,
"If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand." (humor)

The P7 is a fine 9mm pistol, and IMNSHO, the SINGLE BEST 9mm pistol made.

It costs a lot more than others, yet probably won't shoot twice as accurately & precisely or last twice as long as whatever you may wish to use as a comparison, but those of us who recognise and appreciate its virtues aren't judging the pistol on the scale of "financial value", but on its merits.

To each his own.
If you don't find yourself convinced, don't get one!
Those of us who've owned and shot this gun for nearly two decades are thoroughly convinced of our reasons for choosing it, however, and wouldn't be persuaded otherwise by a few weakly-argued posts on an Internet bulletin board!

It's the old difference between the person with extensive experience on a particular issue and the person reading about an issue, or with limited experience. There's a lot of distance between the two conditions that discussion and thought alone can't breach.

Best.

[Shake]

A few thoughts. . .

Many state that the USP should cost the same as a GLOCK or a P99. While the quality argument will never be settled here, there is one other valid argument for the added cost of the USP.

How many GLOCKs and P99s can, in a few moments time and with a few parts, be converted to one of nine or more different action variants? The USP was designed to do just that. The end user can choose virtually any action type they like in the same firearm.

I'll be the first to admit that very few people make use of that functionality, but the engineering, components, and added cost of manufacture figure into the overall price of the firearm. If you buy a USP, you are paying for that functionality regardless of your intentions of using it.

In short, to claim that a GLOCK or a P99 is the same as an USP is not accurate.

Shake

[Shake]

As far as H&K's customer service is concerned. . .

It seems the issue of their service always comes up. I find that few have ever used it, but are more than happy to pass on what they have heard or read. You'll get sick of me saying it, but I've had very good help from them, both parts and service.

Shake

[Handy]

I think the "complexity" issue with the P7 is greatly exaggerated. The Beretta 92 has more parts than a P7. During cycling, the P7 has fewer moving parts than any recoil gun-the slide is the only major component in play. On a Browning type the slide AND barrel must independantly move. On a P-38/M9 system the slide AND barrel AND locking block move.

Everyone likes to talk about bore height and muzzle rise. Short of the Steyr, nothing puts the recoil impulse as low and close to the hand.

Simplicity of operation: One lever cocks, decocks, lowers the slide and acts as a safety. That lever is completely ambidextrous and can be manipulated by any of three fingers. It is the only gun that will go from 4 lbs. SA trigger to decocked AS YOU DROP IT!

[J.Bourne]

Sawbones: My point wasn't to try to 'weakly' dissuade fans of the P7 to stop using or loving it. To the contrary, I was hoping for some information I have not read or heard before to help me rationalize the price.

I'm closer to understanding the high price because of some of the posts I've read, if for no other reason than that they're rarer and have a small but rabidly loyal fan base. Tariffs, MAYBE an inefficient manufacturing process (w/higher labor costs), lower economies of scale (inevitably raising the price) and to be honest, higher materials' costs all seem to be factors as well.

The whole 'If you have to ask, you'll never understand" rationale just doesn't cut it. One might more logically state that "If you can't explain it, you paid too much" (though I never would be so presumptuous).

In an open and free market, economists will tell you that something 's worth = what a willing buyer is prepared to pay for something and what a willing seller is prepared to sell it for. To some degree, logic is marred, in many transactions, resulting in a market inefficiency.

I have no problem accepting that the P7 is a unique, well-crafted, fine quality firearm. I know the design is rather rare and engineer-intensive. In fact, I'd love to have one though I can't justify the price tag. Same reason I don't own a Mercedes or a Bentley.

I never wanted to quibble with those of you who have been able to justify the price tag, though. It sounds as if many of you that did have an asset that has appreciated in value. Congrats.

I was simply wondering if there was one or several predominant and readily identifiable factors for the higher cost than, say, a Sig 229.

Tell me you can consistently get 1.5 inch groups at 75 yards and I'm there.

[Handy]

I think the car example was a good one. Gun owners are just kind of cheap when they compare guns, since so many are around $500. But you can still buy a new car for $10,000. Yet many of you are driving SUVs and luxury cars that are pushing five times that.

I tend to buy cars under $30,000. I have a few guns that push $1000. You can spend up to $3000 on a "defensive" pistol. I feel reasonably conservative in both numbers as what I got for $30,000 and $1000, respectively, was good value.

The P7 is not expensive, but a good value. So is a 3 series BMW. Occasionally you will find a car or pistol (CZ) that is a bargain. That doesn't make all other prices wrong.

If it was widely believed that cost to value ratio is of primary consideration, the only guns you'd see at the range are FEGs, CZ-75s and surplus Walthers. I can't see how spending $300 more for any other 9mm makes any more sense than spending $1200 on excellence.

[tetchaje]

FWIW, people sell P7s on the internet because it is a quick way for P7-loyalists to get news to each other of a potential purchase. You can get a Gluck anywhere. P7s generally have to travel across a few states if you want to find a good used one for a decent price.

Deals are out there. I paid about $800 for my current LNIB P7M8.

Myself, I have owned 5 P7s. I sold my two P7M13s because the grip was too fat for my hands, and because they just didn't have the same aesthetic refinement of the P7/P7M8 as far as handling characteristics are concerned. The other two P7s were refurbs that I had originally intended to turn into carry guns (at two seperate times) but I couldn't bring myself to abuse them in that way.

The other day I held a P7 PSP for the first time (actually a P7, but I'll call it PSP for the sake of mag-release clarity) and I am sold. It felt even smaller and lighter than my M8, and the trigger was outstanding.

Where else can you get a gun that:
1) Goes from completely safe to completely deadly in the matter of a split second (no other gun compares in this respect -- naturally gripping the gun as you bring it to bear on the target cocks it)
2) Has a stellar trigger out of the box.
3) Has a 4.2" barrel in a gun that is the same size as a SIG 239. Heck, my full-sized 220TT only has a 4.4" barrel.
4) Is completely made out of high quality carbon-steel.
5) Can be completely disassembled in seconds, including the firing pin assembly, without any tools.
6) A virtually straight feed angle from the magazine to the chamber. No failures to feed here. My P7M8 easily feeds empty cases.
7) Low bore axis coupled with excellent ergonomics -- only the Steyr M-Series comes close in this respect, but it doesn't offer all of the other above features.
etc.
etc.
etc...

Did I mention accurate?

[gbelleh]

You don't have to pay $1,200 for a P7!

I got my used (IK) P7M8 for $850 shipped with 6 magazines!

You really need to shoot a P7 for yourself to understand why so many are willing to pay $1,000+ for one. Maybe P7s aren't for you. That's fine too.

It is IMO the easiest 9mm pistol to shoot well. My USP is a little more accurate than my P7, but in a fight, I'd grab the P7 because I believe I could get more shots off faster and more accurately with the P7 than with any other gun I own.

The P7 has surpassed all of my expectations so far, and if I had to, I would spend $1,200 on another, but with some looking around, I'm sure I could find another at a lower price. My next P7 will be a P7M13. Those are a little harder to find a deal on, but it's possible.

[Incursion]

Does anyone know how much they go for in Germany?

[Erich]

Dude, I'd bet the majority of weekenders can't do this with their rifles!

[Russ]

I would love to have a P7 and a house on the coast in Malibu. Neither is going to happen unless I win the lottery!

[Nomadz]

I own an Audi; let's see... an Audi S4 tuned to stage 3 will smoke a BMW M3

Well i own P7s and they are Engineering Masterpieces
easily worth what i paid....i just bought a Springfield PRO
which is significantly more expensive but certainly no better.

BTW I also own a BMW M3 EVO which tuned to Stage 3 can 'Easily'
smoke your S4