40S&W…Have you seen the deals? - Page 7

Pumpkin · April 1, 2024, 12:24 PM

Who would have ever thought a US Government agency could spend too much money on a project to end years later doing a complete circle back.

So they come up with a more powerful round, that fits in the same size gun, (unlike the 41Mag vs the 357Mag of yesteryear) that offers too much recoil for one of our elite organization’s agents to shoot well.

Maybe we have a different problem?

Webleymkv · April 1, 2024, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pumpkin
Who would have ever thought a US Government agency could spend too much money on a project to end years later doing a complete circle back.

So they come up with a more powerful round, that fits in the same size gun, (unlike the 41Mag vs the 357Mag of yesteryear) that offers too much recoil for one of our elite organization’s agents to shoot well.

Maybe we have a different problem?

Honestly, I always found the notion that the FBI is the premier authority on defensive handgun performance to be ironic. The FBI isn't the largest police agency in the country (that's NYPD), they don't get in the most gunfights (that's the Border Patrol), and they aren't the oldest Federal police agency (that's the U.S. Marshalls). They had a situation where two agents got killed and several more severely injured due primarily to poor preparation and marksmanship, but to save face they blamed their handgun ammunition, picked bigger and more difficult to shoot calibers, and somehow came out as the premier source of law-enforcement handgun selection criteria? While the FBI has provided some good information and data points, given their history I find the taking of their conclusions as definitive to be, well, ironic.

Pumpkin · April 1, 2024, 05:08 PM

Well said!
They probably have the most disposable income to fund such studies and their opinion on anything holds little water for me these days.

wild cat mccane · April 1, 2024, 05:19 PM

I'd blame the Dickey law long before I'd blame a group with only some allowed data.

Nothing political in that statement. As a data person, it's a total joke.

Webleymkv · April 1, 2024, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wild cat mccane
I'd blame the Dickey law long before I'd blame a group with only some allowed data.

Nothing political in that statement. As a data person, it's a total joke.

I'm not quite sure what an amendment prohibiting the CDC from using its funding to promote gun control has to do with the FBI's expertise or lack thereof or the .40 S&W cartridge

Pumpkin · April 1, 2024, 09:29 PM

I wonder what the users would have chosen?

Forte S+W · April 3, 2024, 08:17 PM

Quote:

I wonder what the users would have chosen?

Someone should poll this somewhere, preferably a forum with a lot of police officers.

Sgt127 · April 4, 2024, 02:16 PM

When the FBI declared the .38 Special (357 Magnum) obsolete, agencies dumped their revolvers. They were on the open market for nothing.

When the FBI declared the 9mm obsolete, Agencies dumped their 9mm’s and, they were on the open market for nothing.

When the FBI said the .40 was obsolete, and the 9mm was just as good…

There’s a common denominator here.

Forte S+W · April 4, 2024, 08:51 PM

Well this time it's totally going to play out differently because the haters say so!

reynolds357 · April 4, 2024, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pumpkin

Who would have ever thought a US Government agency could spend too much money on a project to end years later doing a complete circle back.

So they come up with a more powerful round, that fits in the same size gun, (unlike the 41Mag vs the 357Mag of yesteryear) that offers too much recoil for one of our elite organization’s agents to shoot well.

Maybe we have a different problem?

They briefly adopted the 10mm, but their agents couldn't handle it.

**JohnKSa** · April 5, 2024, 01:32 AM

There was never an issue with FBI agents handling the 10mm. This is a myth. I don't know how it got started but it's pretty easy to verify that it can't be true.

1. BEFORE the FBI ever issued 10mm, they settled on a reduced loading that was identical to what the .40S&W would be when it was later developed. The FBI never issued full power 10mm, they only issued their reduced 10mm loading which was equivalent to what the .40S&W would be when it was later developed.

2. The reason they moved away from the 10mm relatively quickly had to do with problems with the 10mm 1076 S&W pistols which were eventually recalled in 1991. The FBI initially went back to 9mm but then made the switch to .40S&W in 1997.

1988 FBI develops the 10mm FBI loading.
1989 FBI officially switches to 10mm.
May 1990 FBI begins issuing S&W 1076 pistols in 10mm.
May 1991 S&W 1076 pistols are recalled.
1991 FBI begins issuing SIG pistols in 9mm.
1997 FBI issues pistols in .40S&W.

So the reduced FBI 10mm loading was developed BEFORE any 10mm pistols were issued to agents, full power 10mm was never issued to agents, and the reason for dropping 10mm was problems with the S&W 1076 pistols not agents having trouble with the caliber/loading.

wild cat mccane · April 5, 2024, 02:41 PM

That is 100% correct.

That's why the 40 was created. They figured out the load that was modeled for the 10mm FBI load had wasted space in the 10mm case. 40 created that fit the 9mm.

10mm in mythic FPS was never fielded. Mythic Norma loads people mention, I start digging it just doesn't seem like 10mm was ever commercially a hit and on the shelf loads weren't all that crazy nuclear. Top it off that at the time of mythic nuclear 10mm, bullets required FPS to expand well. Thanks to drag and FMJ on target don't vaporize like a steel backstop, all FMJ handgun rounds are capable of the same depth.

10mm HST today is very low FPS. Bullets just don't need big FPS anymore.

As LukcyGunner says on their 10mm test section, bullets stop performing as designed when you start loading them high (bullet failure).

Bullets are skived and bonded now. The 9mm is uniquely back end heavy. Drag isn't as limiting on required FPS. It's a good combination.

Pumpkin · April 5, 2024, 04:42 PM

How much does drag enter into a discussion on pistol bullets?

**JohnKSa** · April 5, 2024, 04:46 PM

For self-defense loadings, or even the mainstream pistol sports, I don't think I've ever heard anyone even bring it up.

If you're shooting silhouette then it might be worth looking into.

Pumpkin · April 5, 2024, 04:47 PM

Wildcat,
A larger frontal diameter after expansion will have more drag but is creating more tissue damage.
I thought this was what we wanted?

**JohnKSa** · April 5, 2024, 05:18 PM

You want sufficient penetration to get to the vitals in combination with good expansion.

Any of the service pistol calibers can achieve this goal.

Red Devil · May 18, 2024, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pumpkin

Who would have ever thought a US Government agency could spend too much money on a project to end years later doing a complete circle back.

So they come up with a more powerful round, that fits in the same size gun, (unlike the 41Mag vs the 357Mag of yesteryear) that offers too much recoil for one of our elite organization’s agents to shoot well.

Maybe we have a different problem?

The problem started when the National Socialists decided to arm ALL Agency employees, not just field agents, and the training costs and qualification requirements associated.

Comedy and high jinks to follow.

Red

**JohnKSa** · May 18, 2024, 02:10 PM

Quote:

...arm ALL Agency employees, not just field agents...

As nearly as I can tell, only about 1/3 of FBI employees are issued firearms. Do you have some evidence to support your assertion?

The Verminator · May 18, 2024, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pumpkin

Who would have ever thought a US Government agency could spend too much money on a project to end years later doing a complete circle back.

So they come up with a more powerful round, that fits in the same size gun, (unlike the 41Mag vs the 357Mag of yesteryear) that offers too much recoil for one of our elite organization’s agents to shoot well.

Maybe we have a different problem?

The problem was more women agents who had trouble with the .40 recoil.

Some men (maybe a lot) had the same problem but were reluctant to admit it.

So the FBI had a problem and the solution was the 9mm.

Most people shot the 9mm better. Military vets were used to the 9mm. Magazine capacities increased.

The silver lining in this storm cloud was that, over the years, gradual improvements in the bullets for the 9mm gave it performance that brought it close to the abilities of the .40 S&W cartridge.

That made the perfectly pragmatic return to the 9mm fine with everybody.

Happy ending.

The Verminator · May 18, 2024, 03:18 PM

Trivia quiz addition for history buffs.

What did the NYC PD do when they had a similar problem with the increasing numbers of women entering the department?

They issued a special revolver for the women.

What was it?

Pumpkin · May 18, 2024, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

As nearly as I can tell, only about 1/3 of FBI employees are issued firearms. Do you have some evidence to support your assertion?

How about all the new armed IRS agents?
No doubt, an accurate make up of what the citizenry of the country really looks like, as some would say.

**JohnKSa** · May 18, 2024, 10:36 PM

How about them?

I was responding to a comment that all FBI employees, not just field agents, were armed. I believe that is a false statement, but I could be wrong and so I asked for supporting information.

Red Devil · Yesterday, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

As nearly as I can tell, only about 1/3 of FBI employees are issued firearms. Do you have some evidence to support your assertion?

2/3 of the FBI are Field and Support agents.

Support agents outnumber Special agents by 35%.

Which means that the Democrat National So██████ts increased the training and qualification requirement by 135%.

Comedy and high jinks to ensue.

Red

dogtown tom · Yesterday, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Red Devil

2/3 of the FBI are Field and Support agents.

Support agents outnumber Special agents by 35%.

Not every FBI employee is an "agent".
Try as I might, I can't find any such job as a "Support agent".

So your claim of:

Quote:

The problem started when the National So██████ts decided to arm ALL Agency employees, not just field agents,

Is nonsense.

tangolima · Yesterday, 07:24 PM

I looked into job with FBI. Neighbor across the street used to work there, so I talked to him.

He told me they wouldn't take me as an normal employee (agents?) who would be entitled to pension, because I had past age 40. But they would take me as an analyst (contractor?). My brother applied for position in their technology department when he got his CS degree. It was an "agent" position
and firearm training was mandatory. He didn't like it so he didn't go further.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

April 1, 2024, 05:08 PM	#153
Pumpkin Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2020 Location: Seguin Texas Posts: 467	Well said! They probably have the most disposable income to fund such studies and their opinion on anything holds little water for me these days. Last edited by Pumpkin; April 1, 2024 at 05:09 PM. Reason: Turrible speelin

April 1, 2024, 05:19 PM	#154
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,645	I'd blame the Dickey law long before I'd blame a group with only some allowed data. Nothing political in that statement. As a data person, it's a total joke. __________________ My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM.

April 4, 2024, 08:51 PM	#159
Forte S+W Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2019 Posts: 821	Well this time it's totally going to play out differently because the haters say so! __________________ Conspiracy theorists are the greatest political spin-doctors of all time. Only they can make the absolute worst political blunders sound like spectacular feats of ingenuity.

April 5, 2024, 01:32 AM	#161
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 25,043	There was never an issue with FBI agents handling the 10mm. This is a myth. I don't know how it got started but it's pretty easy to verify that it can't be true. 1. BEFORE the FBI ever issued 10mm, they settled on a reduced loading that was identical to what the .40S&W would be when it was later developed. The FBI never issued full power 10mm, they only issued their reduced 10mm loading which was equivalent to what the .40S&W would be when it was later developed. 2. The reason they moved away from the 10mm relatively quickly had to do with problems with the 10mm 1076 S&W pistols which were eventually recalled in 1991. The FBI initially went back to 9mm but then made the switch to .40S&W in 1997. 1988 FBI develops the 10mm FBI loading. 1989 FBI officially switches to 10mm. May 1990 FBI begins issuing S&W 1076 pistols in 10mm. May 1991 S&W 1076 pistols are recalled. 1991 FBI begins issuing SIG pistols in 9mm. 1997 FBI issues pistols in .40S&W. So the reduced FBI 10mm loading was developed BEFORE any 10mm pistols were issued to agents, full power 10mm was never issued to agents, and the reason for dropping 10mm was problems with the S&W 1076 pistols not agents having trouble with the caliber/loading. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

April 5, 2024, 02:41 PM	#162
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,645	That is 100% correct. That's why the 40 was created. They figured out the load that was modeled for the 10mm FBI load had wasted space in the 10mm case. 40 created that fit the 9mm. 10mm in mythic FPS was never fielded. Mythic Norma loads people mention, I start digging it just doesn't seem like 10mm was ever commercially a hit and on the shelf loads weren't all that crazy nuclear. Top it off that at the time of mythic nuclear 10mm, bullets required FPS to expand well. Thanks to drag and FMJ on target don't vaporize like a steel backstop, all FMJ handgun rounds are capable of the same depth. 10mm HST today is very low FPS. Bullets just don't need big FPS anymore. As LukcyGunner says on their 10mm test section, bullets stop performing as designed when you start loading them high (bullet failure). Bullets are skived and bonded now. The 9mm is uniquely back end heavy. Drag isn't as limiting on required FPS. It's a good combination. __________________ My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM. Last edited by wild cat mccane; April 5, 2024 at 02:54 PM.

April 1, 2024, 12:24 PM	#151
Pumpkin Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2020 Location: Seguin Texas Posts: 467	Who would have ever thought a US Government agency could spend too much money on a project to end years later doing a complete circle back. So they come up with a more powerful round, that fits in the same size gun, (unlike the 41Mag vs the 357Mag of yesteryear) that offers too much recoil for one of our elite organization’s agents to shoot well. Maybe we have a different problem?

April 1, 2024, 09:29 PM	#156
Pumpkin Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2020 Location: Seguin Texas Posts: 467	I wonder what the users would have chosen?

April 4, 2024, 02:16 PM	#158
Sgt127 Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2002 Posts: 1,053	When the FBI declared the .38 Special (357 Magnum) obsolete, agencies dumped their revolvers. They were on the open market for nothing. When the FBI declared the 9mm obsolete, Agencies dumped their 9mm’s and, they were on the open market for nothing. When the FBI said the .40 was obsolete, and the 9mm was just as good… There’s a common denominator here.

April 5, 2024, 04:42 PM	#163
Pumpkin Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2020 Location: Seguin Texas Posts: 467	How much does drag enter into a discussion on pistol bullets?

April 5, 2024, 04:46 PM	#164
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 25,043	For self-defense loadings, or even the mainstream pistol sports, I don't think I've ever heard anyone even bring it up. If you're shooting silhouette then it might be worth looking into. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

April 5, 2024, 04:47 PM	#165
Pumpkin Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2020 Location: Seguin Texas Posts: 467	Wildcat, A larger frontal diameter after expansion will have more drag but is creating more tissue damage. I thought this was what we wanted? Last edited by Pumpkin; April 5, 2024 at 05:03 PM.

April 5, 2024, 05:18 PM	#166
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 25,043	You want sufficient penetration to get to the vitals in combination with good expansion. Any of the service pistol calibers can achieve this goal. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

May 18, 2024, 03:18 PM	#170
The Verminator Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2013 Location: Minnesota Posts: 382	Trivia quiz addition for history buffs. What did the NYC PD do when they had a similar problem with the increasing numbers of women entering the department? They issued a special revolver for the women. What was it?

May 18, 2024, 10:36 PM	#172
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 25,043	How about them? I was responding to a comment that all FBI employees, not just field agents, were armed. I believe that is a false statement, but I could be wrong and so I asked for supporting information. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

Yesterday, 07:24 PM	#175
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,886	I looked into job with FBI. Neighbor across the street used to work there, so I talked to him. He told me they wouldn't take me as an normal employee (agents?) who would be entitled to pension, because I had past age 40. But they would take me as an analyst (contractor?). My brother applied for position in their technology department when he got his CS degree. It was an "agent" position and firearm training was mandatory. He didn't like it so he didn't go further. -TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk Last edited by tangolima; Yesterday at 07:32 PM.